The online racing simulator
iRacing
(13607 posts, closed, started )
I wouldn't say that lfs has more physics features or just features. Tbh I have no idea how someone could even say that...

I mean, here's just short list of things that are missing from lfs and are in iracing: ground effects and ground clearence and rake having an effect on df, setup options based on real values and limited by real values and car type, tracks that are trillions and trillions times better in every way than anything in lfs, many more different type of race series and cars, bumpstops, replays that work even if physics have changed, event result .csv exporter, sucky forum, driving school videos, night racing, much much complex aero as a whole, spotter, multicore support, a TON more realistic setup options like arb preload, live rear axle, asymmetric setups, voice chat, better replay controls, delta timing so you can compare your lap times to your optimals when live.. There's the document on iracing forum (if you can find it ) where 3 years of updates are listed... I could keep going listing stuff forever.

Lfs has good crash physics, visible tire deformation, skin sharing, flatspots, great forum with good mods, autocross editor, driving tests, sound system using really short sounds making all cars sound crap.

Both sims are very reliable and crash rarely. Due to their nature the online experience is different in many ways though. Many features are in both.

But to say lfs has more features is just not true. Lfs has still some ground breaking features but having few features the competition does not have does not make it have more.

If I had millions to spend on a racing sim I'd buy nkpro. There's imho a sim that with proper funding and someone else making the schedules than kunos could show iracing how it is done. All it needs is tons of bug fixing, aero updates and some extra content and it is a killer. Then add stock cars and ovals and the muricans run in through the windows with their credit cards in their hands.

Or buy racing legends and never be heard of again.

I don't think the genre is joke either. Maybe it was in 2005-2006 when lfs was the only real sim. Not because lfs was bad. It wasn't! But the competition was. I mean a 3 man team working in sheds across the europe is the first one out with new online business model and a good racing sim. Looking at what lfs was then and what the competition was I think sim racing maybe was a joke then. But today? No.
Quote from Hyperactive :Then add stock cars and ovals and the muricans run in through the windows with their credit cards in their hands.

I lol'd
Quote from Hyperactive :I wouldn't say that lfs has more physics features or just features. Tbh I have no idea how someone could even say that...

Tires easily go to LFS. Overall car physics go to LFS. Sure, iRacing has all those cool little features in the garage, but sadly half of them work correctly. On the oval side we are actually having to run things opposite to the normal just to go fast. I'll take quality over quantity any day.

Quote :Both sims are very reliable and crash rarely. Due to their nature the online experience is different in many ways though. Many features are in both.

Agreed, however I think the useful features that actually change the quality of the racing are in LFS, and not iRacing, atleast moreso.


Quote :But to say lfs has more features is just not true. Lfs has still some ground breaking features but having few features the competition does not have does not make it have more.

But the features LFS have as far as physics, hosting, league racing, etc are much more useful than any in iRacing. iRacing might have the graphics, but to quote the mighty Scawen "This is a racing simulator, not a screenshot generator."

Quote :Or buy racing legends and never be heard of again.



Quote :Looking at what lfs was then and what the competition was I think sim racing maybe was a joke then. But today? No.

I think BBT is referring to the fact that low funded simulators (LFS and nkp) are out performing heavily funded simulators like rFactor and iRacing. Either tire data is free, or the tire data the top sims pay for faulty data.
Quote from Hyperactive :...

he didnt say that lfs has more features he said that it has a lot less fudged features

with the physics model in lfs you can use tweak to build any number of ridiculous cars (or bikes for that matter) and they all behave more or less like youd expect them to
in iracing even black ford gts cant jump
Quote from PMD9409 :Tires easily go to LFS. Overall car physics go to LFS. Sure, iRacing has all those cool little features in the garage, but sadly half of them work correctly. On the oval side we are actually having to run things opposite to the normal just to go fast. I'll take quality over quantity any day.

Well the oval side with the high power stock cars seems to be most broken part of iracing so sure the best cars of lfs can beat the worst cars of iracing.

In my opinion cars like the skippy or solskie are excellent cars with much better "feel of correctness" than any car in lfs. I don't agree that lfs does less but what it does it does better than iracing.

Quote from PMD9409 :But the features LFS have as far as physics, hosting, league racing, etc are much more useful than any in iRacing. iRacing might have the graphics, but to quote the mighty Scawen "This is a racing simulator, not a screenshot generator."

Tbh I think that is just that lfs just looks very nice in motion.

I think they both have strengths and weaknesses. They are different. I wouldn't say iracing is just a screenshot simulator.


Quote from PMD9409 :I think BBT is referring to the fact that low funded simulators (LFS and nkp) are out performing heavily funded simulators like rFactor and iRacing. Either tire data is free, or the tire data the top sims pay for faulty data.

I don't think low funded simulations are out performing the more costly ones. Sure each sim still has their own strengths that other sims do not have but overall I don't see there being a real competitor for iracing. Lfs is going nowhere, rf2 isn't out and its quality is still mystery, rfactor has some nice mods but doesn't really drive as well as iracing. Nkpro is very much just wip while not being worked on. Forza and gt, well fun games but that's it.

Quote from Shotglass :he didnt say that lfs has more features he said that it has a lot less fudged features

I think I got that but I disagree. Just the aero model alone is far more advanced than the one in lfs without being fudged at all. Same with tire model. Lfs has issues too. At most those issues cancel each out instead of making lfs any kind of clear winner.
every aero model is utterly fudged these days since were decades away from simulating aero in real time
Quote from Shotglass :every aero model is utterly fudged these days since were decades away from simulating aero in real time

I don't think you need to simulate everything in real time to get it right or close. Just because we can not run fem, adams, cfd, engine simulation in real time does not mean we couldn't get really close with a lot simpled models.

We can not even simulate springs in real time. Do you think springs are utterly fudged too in all sims?
Quote from Hyperactive :We can not even simulate springs in real time. Do you think springs are utterly fudged too in all sims?

er what?
springs are perfeclty easy to simulate in real time
it only become an issue hen you get to the super stiff springs you need to simulate car bodies rigs of rods style
Quote from Shotglass :er what?
springs are perfeclty easy to simulate in real time
it only become an issue hen you get to the super stiff springs you need to simulate car bodies rigs of rods style

Well iracing does support coil binding setups which is effectively fully compressed spring. Are you saying iracing has fudged their "spring model"?
Quote from Hyperactive :Well iracing does support coil binding setups which is effectively fully compressed spring. Are you saying iracing has fudged their "spring model"?

Too bad that it is completely broken. Coil binding is impossible without knowing where the bumpstops and stuff are. iRacing will not release it, and after further investigating with running many different oval setups, I'm starting to think it is terribly fudged.

Front springs:
350-350
350-300
850-850
850-600
850-700
1200-1200
600-2000

Guess what? They all practically run the same... If that is realism, well... I would rather race arcade games.
Quote from Hyperactive :Well iracing does support coil binding setups which is effectively fully compressed spring. Are you saying iracing has fudged their "spring model"?

after seeing that ford gt jump video i wouldnt be surprised to find out that trackmania has better core physics
Quote from Shotglass :after seeing that ford gt jump video i wouldnt be surprised to find out that trackmania has better core physics

Well honestly if couple of funny vids will make a sim have "bad core physics" I'll tell you there is not one single decent sim out there.

Quote from PMD9409 :Too bad that it is completely broken. Coil binding is impossible without knowing where the bumpstops and stuff are. iRacing will not release it, and after further investigating with running many different oval setups, I'm starting to think it is terribly fudged.

Front springs:
350-350
350-300
850-850
850-600
850-700
1200-1200
600-2000

Guess what? They all practically run the same... If that is realism, well... I would rather race arcade games.

Was it with the otm too? I thought coil binding setups were working...
Quote from Shotglass :er what?
springs are perfeclty easy to simulate in real time
it only become an issue hen you get to the super stiff springs you need to simulate car bodies rigs of rods style

All simulation is approximation. Classic physics has unlimited resolution. Computers don't.

So a computer can only ever simulate to a certain decimal point of accuracy percentage ("fudge factor"). Depending on what is being simulated, a couple of decimal points in accuracy and simulation detail can have extreme impacts on the results, and the computing requirements.

That's where the art lies.
Quote from Hyperactive :Well honestly if couple of funny vids will make a sim have "bad core physics" I'll tell you there is not one single decent sim out there.

theres vids that show stange behaviour that still follows some inherent logic (eg most collision detection mishaps) and then theres vids that get the most basic bits of rigid body physics wrong

Quote from MadCat360 :So a computer can only ever simulate to a certain decimal point of accuracy percentage ("fudge factor"). Depending on what is being simulated, a couple of decimal points in accuracy and simulation detail can have extreme impacts on the results, and the computing requirements.

you clearly dont know what fudging means
Quote from Hyperactive :Was it with the otm too? I thought coil binding setups were working...

OTM: 350 - 350
BetaTM: 350 - 350 or 400 - 350
NTM: Anything

The "feel" might be there, but that's just fudge fudge fudge. I'm starting to think it might still be a spreadsheet sim. They didn't even create a live tire model. Surely. Or did they really destory something that bad?

They are creating "features" like coil binding with no proof of it. It's just a fudge addition to a limited engine that keeps digging their own grave. I might not be some real engineer, but I've been following oval racing since I was a little kid. Use to race myself. Been sim racing on ovals since 96. I've read enough to see how the cars should react with certain components, but iRacing doesn't always follow those components, and sometimes do the complete opposite.

Oh and I'm currently 2nd in A class points to qualifying into Pro. :banana:
Quote from MadCat360 :All simulation is approximation. Classic physics has unlimited resolution. Computers don't.

So a computer can only ever simulate to a certain decimal point of accuracy percentage ("fudge factor"). Depending on what is being simulated, a couple of decimal points in accuracy and simulation detail can have extreme impacts on the results, and the computing requirements.

That's where the art lies.

This is a massive cop out though when it comes to the known limits of computation and simple physics(tm).

Shot is right, looking at certain videos, and driving iRacing the last little while and see the bizarre effects of their "advanced tire model" on a handful of cars REALLY shows me that something is missing. Before the NTM I used to attritbute deficiency to the OTM but now that so much is supposedly taken care of; things are anywhere from marginally better to just as bad and their whole presentation of physicality has taken a convoluted turn that I did not anticipate. If anything, iRacing should be MORE predictable now but it is actually less so on the cars with NTM which shows me something is really, REALLY wrong with their entire approach.

Use you brains and think about this: if all their cars were actually processed and calculated in physical terms like LFS's cars are, then the whole business of "releasing the NTM on separate cars" should strike anyone with presence of mind as inherantly dodgy. That GT video, sporadic releases of "physics updates" here and there for certain cars, "tweaks of tires" to certain cars - the whole thing is just blindingly disappointing when you read between the lines.

The thing with LFS is that even though there is lots of shit wrong with it, when you treat individual vehicles similarly you achieve similar results because the fundamental mathematical approach to vehicular dynamics is still correct - or not just correct; it ACTUALLY FECKING EXISTS. As Hyper kind of alluded to iR's approach works with lower speed cars with no downforce. The Solstice is great even with the OTM and the skippy is good. But when you add more power, and more downforce, iRacing shit falls apart faster than a turd with no glutamine.

Don't get me wrong, I actually PREFER iRacing's low speed cars. But after that it's all downhill in a shocking way.

The LFS GTR cars are FAR more believable than the C6R or the FGT because they still feel like cars, not strange galactic organisms that have their own mind.
Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :This is a massive cop out though when it comes to the known limits of computation and simple physics(tm).

No it isn't. No existing computer could ever simulate a tire molecule by molecule in real time. Sometimes that lack of perfection doesn't matter. Sometimes it makes all the difference. That's the art, which clearly iRacing isn't adept at, or has got wrong in some way.

Do you think I'm defending the new model? Because I'm not. It's not what I hoped it would be, in fact I may stop playing if it doesn't start engaging me (didn't race this week). The Skippy now behaves like the real thing (which I've driven quite a bit). Things are still wrong. It still doesn't feel like a real car at all. The HPD and GT feel dead. More like hovecrafts with car-like behavior.

I still prefer LFS's and NetKar Pro's physics, and especially their feel.

But trying to dig into a simulation none of us understands is quite useless. We can observe various effects but, as you must know, in the computer world sometimes the issue is at first glance completely unrelated.
There is quite a lot of bitching about iracing lately but I must say I am still enjoying it a lot.

I drive skipies most of the time and the NTM feels good to me in this car. (apart from the total absence of tire wear).

However, the necesity for having bought all cars to compete in multiclass racing is clearly commercially driven, not technically. If they can prevent people with run out subscriptions to take part in races, there is no doubt they could keep people from racing cars they have on their hard drive but did not pay for. It's just a commercial decision that is defended poorly by the marketing department.
Fast Lap at Road America
Quote from Tony Gardner :Thanks for all the interest and glad some found it helpful. My intention was simply to tell members at a high level what we were working on currently.

As far as the stuttering/frame rate question that came up, there are plenty of variables including computing speed obviously but working on a couple different things in this area including a substantial memory management project and version 2 of it is going into testing tonight. Version 1 already helped some testers quite a bit, but hoping this second version helps even more. We shall see.

I was just talking to Dave Kaemmer and he plans on doing either a Q&A or an update (or both) on the forums this week about the NTM.

Good Racing

Tony

Posted one hour ago.
Well all I know is I came back home for holidays and paid a 1 month subscription for iRacing. My month of holidays is almost over and I just played iRacing one day and LFS the rest of them.
I feel kinda dissappointed with iRacing, feels like Toyota in F1, they have more money than every one else but they don't spend it properly so they don't win.
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iRacing
(13607 posts, closed, started )
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