I think they should just race all year at Monaco. 20 weekends at Monaco. After all, then the drivers won't need to travel very far from home.

I've looked at the damage Massa received, and there is no way the rub on the sidepod caused his accident. There is a large chunk out of his nose, and possibly some front wing damage, but that came from hitting Webber which he was going to do anyhow.

Edit:

Quote from JPeace :

'Not impossible, Schumacher tried and succeeded.

Twice in fact. Once on Hamilton, and once on Rosberg.

Quote from Juzaa :

Every time you cause a collision it's dangerous. Look at what happened to Petrov in last race. He hurt his leg in a collision that didn't look bad at all. When you're racing 200 km/h and hit other driver there's always a chance that something goes wrong. I admit that Schumi's incident with barrichello was dangerous and shouldn't have been done but we're not talking about Schumacher here.

You also seemed to forget that in order to overtake you must be a lot faster than the other one when racing in Monaco. They all had new tires and were about as fast with them. How can you overtake if you can't get close enough? You're right that Hamilton probably would've tried something very stupid and risked his points if he was in Buttons shoes but he wasn't. Why? because Button drove better this weekend. Don't forget that Hamilton's passes succeeded against way slower opponents than himself. Comparing Schumacher with Mercedes against Vettel or Alonso is just insane.

About his driving style. Of course he's fast. It's not his driving style that puts him into trouble it's his mind. He does mistakes, pushes himself into corners, waves around the straight trying to prevent other passing. Those aren't things that make him faster. They are things keeping Hamilton from gaining the necessary points to win more championships. He needs to learn how to control his temper like Schumacher did when he was at his best. Winning one race isn't that important. Getting good points from all races to win the championship is.

I haven't seen Massa's comments about the tunnel so can't say anything about that. Maybe you could provide me a link?

His overtake attempt on maldonado wasn't dangerous, it was a pretty standard overtaking attempt, every overtake is dangerous, so is even sitting in an F1 car. And he didn't cause it.

Why do you keep saying he wasn't close enough? He WAS close enough as he proved with schumacher, If you have to have a full overlap on a car before you can overtake it there would be a hell of alot less overtaking and zero at monaco and the gentlemans agreements tends to be you have to have your front wheel infront of the rear wheel of the car your trying to overtake. Your main argument before was that F1 experts all backed you up and they know more than us yet most have come out and said looking back with more evidence the penalties were harsh but now you ignore their opinion.

You can't compare Button and Hamilton in this race, one started 2nd and one started 9th... Button ****ed up because he was waiting for the race to fall to his feet instead of going and getting it, he doesn't ever work for it. Whats the point in coming third if Vettels in 1st? They need wins and as many as they can get. It wasn't smart just boring and shit he only wins a race if theres some fluky tyre calls, and his amazingly smooth tyre saving driving style which i've yet to see him use to win a race.

His driving style and his mind go hand in hand, he makes mistakes like every other driver maybe a few more but thats because he's balls out all the time, which is exciting to watch and works most of the time, his achievements prove it.

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

Why do you keep saying he wasn't close enough? He WAS close enough as he proved with schumacher, If you have to have a full overlap on a car before you can overtake it there would be a hell of alot less overtaking and zero at monaco and the gentlemans agreements tends to be you have to have your front wheel infront of the rear wheel of the car your trying to overtake. Your main argument before was that F1 experts all backed you up and they know more than us yet most have come out and said looking back with more evidence the penalties were harsh but now you ignore their opinion.


His driving style and his mind go hand in hand, he makes mistakes like every other driver maybe a few more but thats because he's balls out all the time, which is exciting to watch and works most of the time, his achievements prove it.

Do you know why he was close enough with Schumacher? Because Schumacher had WORN TIRES! Schumacher went to pits at the same lap he was overtaken due to his tires being in so bad condition. Hamilton was able to brake later with better tires which helped him to get side by side when Schumacher turned. With Maldonado they both had new tires and same braking distance and when Maldonado turned he was more in front and had the right to turn.

I only see Massa commenting that the damage caused by Hamilton pushing him into Webber made the cur undriveable and lead to Hamilton getting inside him in the tunnel. Where does it say Hamilton did something wrong in the tunnel? He did push Massa into Webber that is a fact so I don't see why you were making a fuss about his comments when he only states the truth.

Oh yeah. Button didn't win this race because of red flag. Without the red flag he'd have won the race so how did he **** up?

Quote from Juzaa :

Do you know why he was close enough with Schumacher? Because Schumacher had WORN TIRES! Schumacher went to pits at the same lap he was overtaken due to his tires being in so bad condition. Hamilton was able to brake later with better tires which helped him to get side by side when Schumacher turned. With Maldonado they both had new tires and same braking distance and when Maldonado turned he was more in front and had the right to turn.

The Williams isn't as good under braking, and this season is a bit off form which is a great shame. If Shumacher had defended his line, his poorly performing tyres wouldn't have been a factor, he lost the initiative, and conceded the corner, which was the right thing to do for his race.

Quote :

I only see Massa commenting that the damage caused by Hamilton pushing him into Webber made the cur undriveable and lead to Hamilton getting inside him in the tunnel. Where does it say Hamilton did something wrong in the tunnel? He did push Massa into Webber that is a fact so I don't see why you were making a fuss about his comments when he only states the truth.

That is a rather selective truth. I strongly believe he was going to hit Webber anyway, so blaming Hamilton is just poor sportsmanship. He got very poor drive going into the tunnel, and then ran onto the marbles, which was entirely his own making.

Quote :

Oh yeah. Button didn't win this race because of red flag. Without the red flag he'd have won the race so how did he **** up?

I haven't agreed with your points up until now, but credit where credit is due, I actually agree with you. Button drove a clever race, he's not balls out, but plays the tortoise and the hare game. Why risk an overtake when you can pressure your opponent into mistakes, or simply let them ruin their tyres while looking after your own. I find this just as exciting as banzai overtaking.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I wonder what people would be saying if it was the other way around... I'm sure in the past when Hamilton has had contact, it's never his fault; he had the right to turn in or to brake, and the other guy should have backed out of the move that wasn't going to work.

this according to our local kart racing legend is particularly true of people who were fully alongside hamilton at the exit of corners
clearly they should totally expect hamilton to run them off track and jump out of the way

Agree with squelch with the two first points.

Button however i don't, how do you know he would have won the race? I think vettels tyres would have held on actually and he still had alonso to get past, in 8 laps, 2 cars in 8 laps around monaco? Not only that most drivers will know that your best going for a move straight away when you catch someone and keep your momentum going, if you slow you end up going to their pace and not your own i don't think he played the best stratergy at all, like i say he waits for it to fall to his feet, as you'll know if you want something you don't sit on your arse and wait for it to come to you, you go out and get it and that applys to racing aswell, you think it's a clever mans sport when in reality its not and thats probably why you don't like hamilton because it's all natural and instinctive with him and you can't get your head around it or relate to it. Then theres still the matter of him being nowhere near alonso or vettel on the same tyres at the end, hamilton wouldn't let that go to waste.

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

Button however i don't, how do you know he would have won the race? I think vettels tyres would have held on actually and he still had alonso to get past, in 8 laps, 2 cars in 8 laps around monaco?

That is something we will never know due to the stupid reset.

Quote :

Not only that most drivers will know that your best going for a move straight away when you catch someone and keep your momentum going, if you slow you end up going to their pace and not your own i don't think he played the best stratergy at all, like i say he waits for it to fall to his feet, as you'll know if you want something you don't sit on your arse and wait for it to come to you, you go out and get it and that applys to racing aswell, you think it's a clever mans sport when in reality its not and thats probably why you don't like hamilton because it's all natural and instinctive with him and you can't get your head around it or relate to it.

That is true, but Alonso was quite ragged trying to put pressure on Vettel. Alonso almost lost it when Button caught them at Neuvoux chicane (sp). Alonso's tyres were old, Vettel's tyres were older. Either one could have fallen off the cliff, or even taken each other out. Button may well have taken the race to either one of them, but we were robbed of that outcome. Buttons strategy was spoiled by the safety car, and was a gamble that failed.

Quote :

Then theres still the matter of him being nowhere near alonso or vettel on the same tyres at the end, hamilton wouldn't let that go to waste.

I believe he just hung back to keep out of trouble. The race was effectively over, so making it to the end with max possible points in the circumstances was the only thing to do. Alonso didn't really put any more pressure on either.

You seem to believe Hamilton is god who can do anything since you're telling me that he'd get past people who are and were the entire race faster than he was. Button isn't the best racer in pushing all out of the tires. His excellence comes in when you need to preserve the tires and drive good laps. He also has a habit of making the right decisions when choosing tactics. His tactic for Monaco would've been perfect without the red flag.

You also underestimate the tires' effect on braking distances. It's not just that you have to brake earlier because you don't have enough grip but you have to brake even earlier because your tires don't have enough grip to go through the corner with the same speed as before. Williams is bad at braking but their car's effect in braking distances compared to Mclaren is way way less than tyres'.


I believe that Massa wouldn't have hit Webber and that is based on the fact that Massa barely hit Webber when he was pushed. Webber was accelerating and would've moved out of the way before Massa's line would have encountered Webber's. Of this you may differ since it's not absolute truth. It's just how I see it and most likely how the judges saw it too. But claiming that worn tires don't affect braking distances is complete bull****.

I just think it was a shitty effort overall from him, when the time came for him to step up he didn't. My opinion which will be proven later in the year.

I think his pace would have been different was he up there with alonso and vettel i think that's a given. Everyone says button preserves his tyres better than anyone but i've not seen him do it much better than hamilton and i've not seen it win him a race yet, pretty sure bridgestone said they we're both pretty equal in tyre degradation. And i doubt that his stratergy was chosen by him, mainly because it changes over the race and he can't drive an F1 car and work out a stratergy and know what everyone elses stratergy is, thats for the strategist with technology sitting on his arse thinking only of that. The only calls he can make are calls on track condition, he made a flukey one after hamilton passed him over a year ago and people still go on about it.

I've watched the Massa-hamilton incident few more times and imho it is still more hamilton's than massa's fault. You need to notice there is that aussie driver in his blue car going wide into the corner because of the car in front of him and massa clearly goes for a gap there. You can't expect massa to just go on the brakes, take the outside line and drive it slowly because a car in front of him takes that line.

Hamilton has more entry speed which makes massa look a bit vulnerable there but that is simply because massa has to take evasive maneuver because of that webber in front of him. You have to remember that mass is in the middle.

Schumacher was able to pass there because the other car basically wasn't prepared for it. Rosberg almost looked he was in Barrichello mode for a second.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

I think they should just race all year at Monaco. 20 weekends at Monaco. After all, then the drivers won't need to travel very far from home.

Nice way to void EU's no-tobacco adds law too.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

I think they should just race all year at Monaco. 20 weekends at Monaco. After all, then the drivers won't need to travel very far from home.

On that basis, they should race all year at Silverstone. Since the vast majority of the teams are based in the UK.

Why? So we can have 20 boring races, rather than 20 exciting "fly into water potentially" races?!

I read somewhere that track changes are being looked into following the crashes at the weekend. The chicane at the end of the tunnel has always been a blackspot, and it has been suggested that the crane is removed from the chicane and the run off area is extended.

This will present two problems I believe.

Firstly where would the crane be positioned? There is very little space in that area, and even with increased run off, cars will still need recovery.

The second, and more important issue to me, is even with an extended run off area, damaged cars skidding along on their floors will not be retarded even with extended tarmac, so the problem wouldn't really be solved.

We have seen so many cars leave the tunnel with less than the full compliment of working wheels over the years, and the hump that catches even the most experienced of drivers needs to be looked at properly. As this seems to be the biggest cause of incidents, would an earlier chicane be of benefit here?

If a small chicane placed at the point of the hump was used it would force drivers closer to the left hand barrier where the hump is not so severe. This would mean braking would be more effective, and also mean the entry into the existing chicane would be slower. It would even mean drivers would have to be slower through the tunnel. A further possibility might even mean the existing chicane could be made less severe and go back to the kink it used to be.

Just floating some thoughts, and putting on my fireproof underwear.

I think the plan is to remove the escape road completely, and have the barriers angled so that out of control cars are diverted gently down the track towards Tabac. They'll travel further, but should reduce the chances of a sudden stop.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I think the plan is to remove the escape road completely, and have the barriers angled so that out of control cars are diverted gently down the track towards Tabac. They'll travel further, but should reduce the chances of a sudden stop.

That makes eminent sense, but it takes that iconic corner away from Monaco. That's progress I suppose.

The chicane itself will still be there, as will Tabac. The actual track route won't change. It'll just remove the area where Wendlinger/Button/Perez crashed and replace it with angled barrier that'll absorb some energy but not bring a car to a dead stop in 5m.

Ah I see.
It still doesn't solve the problem of the hump. That is a huge braking zone, and drivers will push the limit (which naturally we want to see) but the loss of traction is a hidden hazard that catches even the best. By making the entrance to the chicane effectively narrower, it would force a slower entry speed, and still retain the slower exit speed for Tabac. There have been some horrific crashes there in the past, and was why the chicane was made tighter I believe. The fast line through the chicane means a driver must be on the right at entry, so the combined braking, turning right towards the barrier, and the hump, seem to have been the reason for the crashes. Forcing straight line braking continuing the line that Sergio seemed to have before his first visit with the barrier, would mean the loads would be more balanced, and the tighter turn into the chicane would effectively slow that complex down. The escape road and crane could be retained too.

Or just resurface the road to remove the bump.

Although I think the bump should stay. Make the 'run offs' safe and keep the track difficult. If F1 drivers can't cope with braking earlier, taking a different line, straightening the car for the bump or any other 'risk management', then we might as well watch short mat bowls.

If they're moving the crane and the extending the run off they probably have the room to move the chicane (and therefore the braking zone) further on and thus avoiding the issues of braking instability.

Resurfacing the road to remove the hump would be a huge civil engineering task. The road is built into the bedrock, and the end of the tunnel would need modification too. I'm not sure the Monégasques would stand for such upheaval.

The problem with angled barriers is that they spit the car back out on the track. That can lead into big incident. That place of monaco is very slow though (the chicane after the tunnel) so that is not really a problem. Maybe it is a problem during first laps when the cars are close together and visibility is poor but not really after that.

The road doesn't need changing and bump needs to stay imho. That braking after the tunnel is difficult place and should stay like that. If that bump is removed you could take the out chicane as well. Not like the chicane is something original about the monaco. It was added later in true tilke fashion.

My how it's changed.
Graham Hill describes the circuit with on board circa 1968.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vjzp4Dd2nk

Just look at how the chicane used to be back then.

Jackie Stewart describes an on board lap in 1973

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xjy1kWTes78

lol sorry to continue this but this kinda does prove how early Massa turned in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... feature=player_detailpage