I have bought the license, to find more good servers to play, but there is just 2 or 3 at all There is mainly dirft and drag servers wich I hate and demo servers.I have never driven the XRT in Blackwood since I bought the license. I have never seen any LX4/ LX6 server

Being one of the first to be in LFS... i've seen its evolution get slower...and slower... and slower... im at a point where im expecting updates to start going backwards and removing features :P, ashes to ashes so to speak.

Oh my GOD! It's the ghost of the XRT!!!

Quote from RMachucaA :

Being one of the first to be in LFS... i've seen its evolution get slower...and slower... and slower... im at a point where im expecting updates to start going backwards and removing features :P, ashes to ashes so to speak.

Same here, although I've been a demo user for more then a year. From the user perspective, I do understand your disappointment, but from the perspective of a semi experienced programer, I quite frankly don't. Tell me, when was the last time that you have created a complex project like this, which got easier to handle and work with, the further you've progressed? Seriously, going through all the changes that have been made in LFS in the past few years, which can be looked up in each readme file by the way, I'm getting a headache already, only while trying to _imagine_ how difficult it must be, not only to create all this, but to work with it, adding new stuff and fixing or rewriting certain parts of it. Perhaps I'm wrong, and it is infact rather easy to handle though. Always depends on the structure in use I guess. Still, it's complexity suggests that it isn't. Either way, my question to you remains valid.

LFS has become stale.


I first played the demo at around the S1 phase


It is almost a grind to race around the same old tracks, with the same old graphics, in the same old cars, doing the same old laptimes as you have raced them all a million times before.


It needs massively revamped IMO

I believe it is the best SIM going, but sitting on laurels only leads to demise.

I had more fun completing NFS shift recently then i have had playing LFS in the past year, because it was something new, something fresh.

I have my copy of Shift here in the office at work, and will be trading it in against Forza3, and i suspect the hour or so i will be playing it later on, will be a right blast.

I could always fire up LFS, race the same old blahh blahh blahh

Quote from 510N3D :

Tell me, when was the last time that you have created a complex project like this, which got easier to handle and work with, the further you've progressed? .... Either way, my question to you remains valid.

While your question is valid, it has absolutely no bearing on the situation. A modern automobile is thousands of times more complex than a car from the 60's, but that doesn't mean that Ford can release a new vehicle every 20 years instead of every three and still expect to get customers.

It doesn't matter if LFS is the most complex program ever devised by man if progress is so slow that nobody bothers buying a license. I'm not saying we're at that point yet, as I've got no idea what license sales are like. But my guess is that things are probably rather slow right now, as far as sales are concerned - which might explain the announcement that we'll be moving on from S2 soon.

Of course, this isn't the first time the "LFS is getting stagnant" issue has come up in these forums, and it probably won't be the last. Scavier will do what they do, and as long as they can keep putting food on their tables I don't think they're bothered to much if we think development is slow.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Of course, this isn't the first time the "LFS is getting stagnant" issue has come up in these forums, and it probably won't be the last. Scavier will do what they do, and as long as they can keep putting food on their tables I don't think they're bothered to much if we think development is slow.

LFS is mostly the devs' pet project. They want to do it on their on terms. They are not selling it to make maximum amount of profit or wanting to make everyone happy. The devs want to do what they consider the perfect sim, if some one else likes it it's just a bonus.
They are only selling it so that they won't have to have another job.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

While your question is valid, it has absolutely no bearing on the situation. A modern automobile is thousands of times more complex than a car from the 60's, but that doesn't mean that Ford can release a new vehicle every 20 years instead of every three and still expect to get customers.

It doesn't matter if LFS is the most complex program ever devised by man if progress is so slow that nobody bothers buying a license. I'm not saying we're at that point yet, as I've got no idea what license sales are like. But my guess is that things are probably rather slow right now, as far as sales are concerned - which might explain the announcement that we'll be moving on from S2 soon.

Of course, this isn't the first time the "LFS is getting stagnant" issue has come up in these forums, and it probably won't be the last. Scavier will do what they do, and as long as they can keep putting food on their tables I don't think they're bothered to much if we think development is slow.

Bearing in mind that Scawen is basically the only person, that is responsible for the programming part, I don't see how anyone could seriously come to a conclusion that's including the idea about an accelerating progress, the further this project is evolving.

Quote from 510N3D :

Bearing in mind that Scawen is basically the only person, that is responsible for the programming part, I don't see how anyone could seriously come to a conclusion that's including the idea about an accelerating progress, the further this project is evolving.

I'm sure that this sim is a huge undertaking for just one programmer. But that means nothing if people stop buying licenses. No excuse in the world can make up for not having paying customers.

We still have LFS, and it's still being actively developed, so I think it's reasonable to assume that Scawen, Victor, etc. are making enough money to not have to go back to working for The Man just yet. However, it definitely seems to me that the number of users has fallen, and that the number of new users is almost nil. I suspect that's why there's a sudden push to get the next patch out the door and get people interested again (and likely move on to S3 shortly).

If it ever gets to the point that people are no longer buying licenses, then the devs will either have to change things to attract more users or go back to working "real jobs". I'm sure they would be just as unhappy about working for a big development house again as we would be about LFS development halting.

The fact that almost half of the online players are demoer's should say it all.
Demoer's have too much content,maybe if they were forced to buy the game we could have a bit larger pool of users.
By the way,i don't think that 3 people can live with just a bunch of licenses and little more.Not taking in count the expenses that they could face.

That's all _just_ based on assumptions and unless you ain't got any official numbers from the developers themselves, how can you seriously dare to create such statements?

Actually, I'm done here. This is leading nowhere, unless one of the dev's is making a statement though.

Quote from 510N3D :

That's all _just_ based on assumptions and unless you ain't got any official numbers from the developers themselves, how can you seriously dare to create such statements?

Go on lfsworld and look at the number of racers online for the last few years. The numbers increase around the time of each big patch, then drop off afterwards. So, while some of this is assumption and supposition, it's based upon factual numbers.

Regardless of my previous comment really, I've been checking the number of players that are online almost daily, for the past few years though, and what I've seen was something about 1000 to 1300 players each day, and about 1500 to 2000, give or take a few hundret, after each patch. The percentage of demo users was about 30-40% each day, at least according to my observation.

So basically what you are confirming, is that the game is treading water, instead of swimming further upstream

Either way, I having a blast racing now, so as long as there at least is one server for me to race on I am satisfied

All this probably needs is to be put into perspective. With other Sims, the typical life span is actually very short in relation to LFS.

But in all honestly it's just the nature of gaming. Does GP4 or rFactor still enjoy the user traffic that they did when they first came out? I doubt it. Even NR2003 is pretty much gone with the exception of a few odd leagues.

The only reason why LFS is still relatively active is because of it's fantastic patches but of course as time moves on, people will start to expect more and I think that's very natural. (The fact that the recent patch is delayed doesnt help so the increased amount of complaints is natural as well)

I have no idea if LFS will even return to it's former glory or if it will just become another "dated" game in the eyes of the public among the likes of Anarchy Online, M.U.G.E.N., Super Mario War, Frets on Fire, rFactor, etc. (Which are or was in a similar situation that LFS' going through now)

But the first step to avoid that would definitely be to improve the system. The Scirocco and the Rock is a very nice addition. In fact, I'm eagerly awaiting the Rock's oval myself. But it's come to the point where I would gladly sacrifice all that just to have better contact system, fixed buggy barriers, better (not necessarily more complicated) immersive sounds (crashes, engines, etc), a damage system that is atleast remotely accurate to real life situations.

And of course, new environments and maybe a graphics update would be nice. This will attract more players.

I understand that the devs can do w/e they want and if they want to focus all of their efforts on that car and the Rock then fine. Finish it. But LFS's more glaring problem better be addressed if not in the next patch then the one after that. Or else LFS will become very stale and wither away. It's happened to just about every game except for the overly hyped ones like Counter-Strike or Starcraft but LFS is certainly not one of those games

In my opinion, interest in racing games of all types peaked late 2005, early 2006, and has slowly diminished since then. Many of the older players have been playing games for over 10 years now, and the interest in gaming, especially online racing, has lost some of it's appeal.

In my case, I pretty much know where I rank based on hot lap times, so there isn't much point in going online to confirm what I already know. For new games, I'll go online to determine which cars are best (or best for a particular class), and to get setup info from other players, but then go back to hot lapping offline. Eventually this stuff gets posted in forums though.

For some games, like NR2003, a lot of people liked running Talledega and Daytona open server, fixed setup events, because just about anyone could win these as much skill wasn't required (all assists, including steering assists, could be enabled), but this also eventually lost it's appeal.

iRacing is new, but it's had to change it's format to allow quick advancement and lower it's prices in an effort to increase the number of players. Activity there is about 4,000 to 5,000 players that run at least on event per week. I don't know what the maximum number of players online at any one time to make a comparason with the stats shown at LFS World.

LFS still manages to have an unusually large number of online players, although since I'm in the USA, I don't see the level of activity that occurs in Europe.

As pointed out, the next patch for LFS will result in an increase in the number of online players, but I suspect that how long the increased activity after each one of these patches, is going to decrease over time for the same reason that overall interest in racing games seem to be diminishing.

some good arguments here i see that im not alone in being unsatisfied with the currently quality of available servers and features.

first of all, why is there such such less availability of servers in north america ? Nobody really answered the question why this is the case. stupid answers like its your fault for living in North America is not the correct way to address the problem.

my point is that LFS is not moving forward well. Its managed by a few people, and cannot compete with other racing simulations out there which have now caught up to LFS's depth and realism to attract the mainstream market.

I respect the developer's vision but my main argument is that staying closed source in these times is a mistake.

Quote from Dajmin :

The OP started out alright, but went off at a bit of a "I want stuff for nothing" tangent.

I think you misunderstood. I wanted to illustrate that your business model must charge for any significant additional contents in the future. otherwise developer's will end up working for free. that is not just. Can you not see the disadvantage of remaining closed ?

Quote from Dajmin :

We're not charged to play online, we're not charged for the skin uploading or downloading, we're not charged for the amazing LFSW service. We've had a range of new stuff added to existing licenses that hasn't cost us a single red cent.

You can absolutely charge for playing online. Opening LFS for modification (tracks, cars), can have tremendous impact on drawing new players. Not to mention if you go down the MMO route, you can charge people monthly.

Quote from Dajmin :

Treading old ground here, but the price of LFS is still way under what you'd pay for a regular game, and those have no fixed plans for the future beyond releasing a sequel to get your cash again. For example, NFS:Shift has been out a couple of months and they're already working on the next one. Each one around £40 here in the UK.

It is underpriced from the developer's point of view, but not from consumer's view. It's expensive considering the little amount of cars available, and tracks and other modes of play. Additionally, assymetric multiplayer availability is more points down for a prospective buyer. Mention that it has been like this for the past 4 years, and there will be further disgust from the consumer. The numbers speak themselves: compare the sales for NFS, or other simulation franchises vs. LFS.

Quote from Dajmin :

I'm sure the 360 and PS3 fans would be happy if Forza and GT supported modding too, but they don't. You pay full price for what the developers give you. Nobody is forcing you to spend anything.

They have real cars. LFS doesn't. They have at least over 100 different cars from real manufacturers.LFS doesn't.

I'm not arguing that LFS is ripping me off. Just highlighting some weak points that I think should have been addressed long ago. because LFS is a great simulator, one of the BEST (used to be the best), and I'd hate to see it deteriorating further.

Quote from dorikick :

Can you not see the disadvantage of remaining closed ?

If you were pointing it out, I missed it.

Quote from dorikick :

You can absolutely charge for playing online. ... Not to mention if you go down the MMO route, you can charge people monthly.

I for one wouldn't pay monthly, unless it was ridiculously cheap. I think one sim going that route is enough for now. Although I admit I race in LFS very rarely, it's become more of a physics experimentation tool for me now.

Quote from dorikick :

It's expensive considering the little amount of cars available, and tracks and other modes of play.

Tracks I will agree with being short in quantity, cars not so much. People are just spoiled at having hundreds of cars these days. Even if LFS had all that, it will dilute online play far too much.

Quote from dorikick :

The numbers speak themselves: compare the sales for NFS, or other simulation franchises vs. LFS.

NFS is no way a meaningful comparison. Compare to NASCAR 2003, RBR or Grand Prix Legends to LFS, and we could draw some useful comparisons, although LFS does not have the conventional business model (i.e. sold in a shop) or advertising (other than word of mouth) that all those sims benefitted from.

Quote from dorikick :

They have real cars. LFS doesn't.

I'm sure this just an oversight on your part, but LFS does have 5 real cars. Not many, but a start, and I'd hope that number continues to rise as LFS evolves. Fictional content was clearly the only choice to begin with, but I see LFS moving further away from (new) fictional content as time progresses.

how can dilution occur when there is no crowd to begin with , which is exactly the problem i am highlighting.

how can you expect a crowd when there is lagging number of feature points behind the rest of the competition

just my 2 cents.

Quote from Bob Smith :

I'm sure this just an oversight on your part, but LFS does have 5 real cars. Not many, but a start, and I'd hope that number continues to rise as LFS evolves. Fictional content was clearly the only choice to begin with, but I see LFS moving further away from (new) fictional content as time progresses.

looking at past 4 years how many new cars have been added (real or not)

how many more can we expect in the next 4 years (if LFS survives or remains the same as it has been)

Quote from dorikick :

compared to 4,3 years ago there appears to be less servers in North America. quite often i end up not playing online because theres no suitable server to play in. all the servers seem to be europe and latin america.

also i hear S3 is coming ? is that just to get another track ? kinda sucks we have to keep paying for new content each time. LFS would get a lot bigger if they just opened it up (like track editing tools)....remaining closed source is going backwards in modern development trends...

other new games have come out - or maybe sick of waiting for the patch.....


either way, lfs is rather out of fashion.

WHere have we all gone, well no where really, we just don't race anymore. See what happened, was LFS used to be fun, fast, pick up, meat up with the reg drivers and you used to be able to have a general laugh day and night. Well in its strive to become "almost realistic" it lost alot of the pick races, then "fun" element of use older drivers. Not all of us can dedicate our time to leagues, Enduro etc etc, although i did in the past, sometimes people have to make a choice, and well this is what happens.

There are still a few of the "old school" regs around, but not many anymore, well not racing as they used to, and me being one of them. Why, well there was to many rules, to many regulations, so much server control, and not enough fun anymore, which is what LFS started out as, correct me if I am wrong.

Time was always going to be an issue with LFS, but us oldies that supported it, understood that great things take time, and we was willing to wait, but in the mean time, the strive for perfection, remove the strive for fun and enjoyment.

In my eyes, what started out as a fun and enjoyment project, has turned into a serious, over the top and to many rules Sim. How can you turn it into a serious project with non realistic cars ( ok bar a few ) and totally non realistic tracks, tracks that you would build in your loft using Scalextric's and expect people to say "wow this is realistic" how the hell should they know, if:

A: Never driven the car
B: Never driven on the track?

You have to pay for realism, track days etc etc, LFS had and I say "had" the market where it was almost real, but drivers respected each other, but in a fictional place. Now...god knows what happened, so....IMHO use dude's that joined many moons ago, loved having fun, don't anymore, hence your question, where have we gone, no where, we are still here, just cannot be bothered anymore.

What I think happens is this, good young waves of gamers keep moving toward the new. The true drivers among them will come back to LFS.
Because it Rocks Worldwide!