I didn't say it was forbidden. but you are the only one able to finger with the site ATM.

We can look but we can't touch.

Edit: Reason why i said that was from reading posts about not having places to race... There are probably more than ever now!

Says who?! Former admins can still get to their admin panel, so Sam isn't the only one with access.

lol multiple fingers eh? - I'll shut up now

We prefer a full fisted approach, because nothing says "F... You" like a full fisted attack.

<-- still wondering (and a little concerned about) what constitutes a good website fingering!

Start -> run -> cmd -> finger ukct.net

Imaginations run wild

Quote from obsolum :

Those stats are incorrect. SamH has changed the stats to prevent people from copying them to incorporate them in their own ranking system.

Thats sad, I was happy.

Stats are accurate at the moment.. but could slip again later this evening

Quote from SamH :

Automatic - as in InSim-based - incident moderation simply doesn't work. I find nothing more odious than iRacing's incident system, and anything that punishes both the wrecker and the wreckee is worse than no moderation at all. As far as I can tell, there's simply not enough information in the InSim packet data to give better than a poorly educated guess. It's not an option, unless you provide for a manually handled appeals procedure and if you're going to go for one of those, you might as well go for a manual reporting system. At least with manual moderation you maintain the concept of "due process", innocent until proven guilty etc. - fundamental to anything purporting to be judicial.

The only way I can see this happening is by using a Semi-intelligent approach that "learns" what is good driving and what it is bad driving without being given any rules straight off... Similar to how a few email filters work at the moment... however, anyone with the money to invest in such a solution should put it to a better use...

Having seen the approach used in filtering emails it's entirely possible to take reports and score them on selected sections (I have been working this out in the last few hours) but the amount of power they throw at just decyphering a bit of text to work out whether it's good or bad is immense... to do that on a 3d representation of several cars as they collide, it would take one hell of a bit of code and would need to be worked out on a frame by frame basis... to do this (what I currently have in my mind) in real time would take an awful lot of kit...

That's the only way I can see this sort of system working... and I don't see it running on anything any of the LFS community can afford to run, and in my mind anything "simpler" would produce too many false-positives (People being banned when it wasn't their fault) to be practical... in fact the system in my minds eye would still be far from perfect

No automatic system can work perfectly, but does anyone think a system that monitors certain parameters that a driver must stay within could work? If you could obtain percentages for the following could they be used as a pre-filter on the way to moderated higher tier servers.


% races started to finished
% yellow flags
% time spent on racing line (can InSim use the green line)
% lap time
% time spent pressing "restart" after race is under way (after spectating)
% time spent chatting during race (after spectating)
% time spent off tarmac


Would like to know what iracers think of their safety rating system.


Nigel (thinking out loud)(also sick of "restart!").

It's possible to get reasonably accurate accident detection using insim with a few simple rules, detection of who was inside/outside isn't hard, we know the speed, we can devise rules that cover most situations and make an assessment of who's fault it is with 'reasonable' reliability - but it would be a long way from foolproof. You could tie this in with general statistics like yellow flag / lap ratio, race completed ratio, to get a rough indication of a drivers messyness - but you cannot develop a foolproof system and certainly it would be wrong to have a system that has any kind of "power" associated with it's judgement.

When CTRA introduced the yellow flag ratio it was suprisingly revealing how consistent the percentages did relate to how clean drivers where. I didn't like it myself because I kept having to pull over to admin or answer questions and effecting my ratio ! So as a general assessment it can be very useful, but in judging specific incidents it just isnt reliable enough.

Quote from NigelY :

% races started to finished
% yellow flags

It's possible to track these, yes, the CTRA system did that, and yes it would be possible to consider this when making decisions.

Quote :

% time spent on racing line (can InSim use the green line)

Well... this would be harder to do, but more importantly I think this would be pointless... watch a race replay with the green line on and see how many "real" racers follow this line... I agree that the line is great for people starting out, but different driving styles use different lines (especially RallyCross).

EDIT: Also how would the system know about overtaking zones or straights where some people favour the left or right side of the road...

Quote :

% lap time

This one is again possible there are several examples of this already... things to keep in mind are in/out laps from the pits, midrace joins yellow flags etc...

Quote :

% time spent pressing "restart" after race is under way (after spectating)
% time spent chatting during race (after spectating)
% time spent off tarmac

These later three I wouldn't actually recommend trying to enforce/monitor as it could produce a HUGE amount of reporting that will need to be dealt with at sometime, and particularly with the chatting could end up producing false-positives over normal racing banter.

I would first, before trying to implement weighting systems such as above, try and define what a 'wrecker' acts like... i.e. what do you notice when they come on track... just penalising someone for missing the racing line is at risk of taking out people with unusual car setups that sacrifice on corner entry for exit speed or vice-versa... and as the car would do that for every corner he's at risk of showing up as a consistantly bad driver...

Once you can actively define the behaviour of a 'bad driver' then you can start to think about implementing the core auto-system... but like I say, the differences can be so subtle that I wouldn't want to make the call... as SamH said you don't want to punish people because someone drove into them... or even if it was just a racing incident (not really the fault of either party and certainly not malicious)

You can't use things like races finished or yellow flag ratio to determine whether someone is in error in an incident. You could calculate your idea of a rough % probability of a % likelihood, but the mere suggestion that you could use any kind of mathematical or statistical computation in the quest to determine blame in an incident is appalling. Take a step back and look at the monster you'd be creating. Remember the (paraphrased) line in Jurassic Park, "you were so busy finding out what you COULD do, you forgot to stop and ask whether you SHOULD do."

Again, SamH has put exactly what I was trying to say without the waffle...

Cheers

Quote from The Very End :

What's all this idiot rant "LFS is not half as good as when CTRA was up" etc etc, there are LOTS of good servers but you lazy whining kids just whines without backing up your statement.
Shut up allready, leave the forum, go racing and then open your mouths.

Canot belive this forum is filled with so many whiners, that whines on absolutely everything jeez! LR, FM, GTR server is just some of them, and there are tons of other servers to play on. The only reason why you liked CTRA was because it had active admins and because your ego-meter did rise when you got more points.

LR - absolutely the same thing. GTR (not sure one the first part of the name) offers fast paced racing in the gtr cars. FM servers handles the formula racing, and they all doing it pretty damn well.

So for love of god and this forum, stop whining about CTRA's death when you don't even know what other servers LFS have to offer.

Listen, I've tried almost every public server and, yes, I've seen what they have to offer. A whole hell of a lot of nothing. Just like the servers nowadays on Nascar Racing 2003 season... Just like the servers on rFactor.


CTRA was great because it was almost always full, the layouts wernt half bad, and the rules wernt terrible either. The most "exciting" servers i've been on are half-full demo servers. =/

I'm sorry that a different type of people than you exist on this forum. CTRA was like that pub in town that you used to go hang out with with your friends and stuff. It closes down and now you have to find a new place. Eventually you find another place to hang out, but it just doesn't feel the same.



That along with the fact with all the recent major changes in my life... for once PERSONALLY I'd like something that was stable and would stay the same. I mean, I didn't even find out CTRA was gone until after I moved 800 miles away from my friends and imediate family.

I have a reason to bitch. All of my favorite servers for all my favorite games are going away, my girlfriend is 800 miles west, my closest friends 800 miles east. I'm in the middle of ****ing no where and I, personally, don't enjoy any of the servers I'm on. Sadly, Maybe I just don't enjoy the game anymore...

Thanks for the replies. I feel a bit out of my depth on the subject but it's nice to get a more informed opinion. An arbitrary auto system is the last thing required when more skilled people are racing, but I was thinking more towards entry level servers.

I understand why CTRA is no more (big shame) so I'm hoping you don't mind some more hypothetical questions.

Do you think unskilled drivers would enter a server with onerous conditions as I set out earlier in order to progress (fully knowing what their letting themselves in for)? Understanding that some things mentioned are not desirable/doable.

Could it improve driving standards? Becky mentioned some correlation between yellow flags and driving standards.

Nigel.

Quote from NigelY :

Do you think unskilled drivers would enter a server with onerous conditions as I set out earlier in order to progress (fully knowing what their letting themselves in for)? Understanding that some things mentioned are not desirable/doable.

Could it improve driving standards? Becky mentioned some correlation between yellow flags and driving standards.

Nigel.

but I also gave an example of where yellow flag ratios didn't work.

The question has never been about the deliberate wreckers and very obvious bad drivers, it's about the less skilled versus the skilled, it would be making judgements on people who even contribute to this forum.

Obvious wrecking is pretty easy to spot, and was never much of a problem on the CTRA. It's that other type of wrecker, the one where somebody is annoyed with another driver and calls them wrecker, that is the problem.

See it's not about fault of every accident, report handling is 80% customer service, 15% filtering drivers out before they get to the higher servers, and 5% wrist slapping on people who should know better.

If there one thing I've learned from my bank, customer services via computer decision isn't the way to go, even if you employ cheap Indian labour to give a human touch to read the decision out.

Most accidents go unreported and undealt with and that's fine, it was never about dealing with the accidents. It's about keeping people happy and providing a place for experienced and skilled racers to do pickup racing without the "gamers".

I think it is possible to do the latter in an automated way, but the customer service aspect you simply can't do by computer, and popular servers with poor customer service wouldn't last 5 minutes on these forums.

Quote from Becky Rose :

If there one thing I've learned from my bank, customer services via computer decision isn't the way to go, even if you employ cheap Indian labour to give a human touch to read the decision out.

Bah, we don't mention the I word (it's where my job went).

Nige, I agree with what Becky posted. To address your other question, I think that if you can devise a structured environment and system of reward - a badge of honour, so to speak - then I think that as long as your rules make sense, there's no reason it can't succeed.

When Becky's (2nd gen?) STCC system introduced the UF1000 server, I was gobsmacked that it took off. I remember thinking that it wouldn't matter what Becky ate, 24 carrat nuggets would always fall out of her arse. I was stuck on the fact that the car was a hunk o' junk UF1000, and at the time I couldn't see past that to see that the car didn't matter as much as the licence points, and the racers' ability to declare themselves xyz licensed STCC drivers. Becky had pegged the mentality of the LFS racer, and filled a gap with a much-needed racing structure and rewards system. Bronze through Platinum (Titanium came later).

The success of the CTRA was a combination of many things, working in tandem. Though it's of course subjective, I think these are the main facets that made it the success it was:
- Racing structure
- Strict but fair rules, conventions and expectations
- Automated race restarts and timed track changes
- An excellent InSim interface
- Replay record of every mile driven
- Comprehensive system of raising reports in the server
- Permanent driver licence history
- Driver's portal, personal licence page and licence userbars
- National, international and team statistics for drivers
- Complete administrative transparency
- Meticulous attention to detail in admin decisions.

Though it was not, of course, across the board I do think that these factors all combined to support the broad belief within the LFS community that, if you had a higher (e.g. Silver) CTRA licence then you were a fair, honourable and accomplished driver. For a lot of people, a CTRA licence was worth showing off.

I'm not suggesting that you'd have to pin a tale on ALL of the above donkeys, but I do think you would have to find something to inspire drivers to rise to a challenge. Something that has a return.

The success of the Cruise servers is in no small part because they can buy virtual cars with their track time.. cars that they could go to any number of other servers and jump in and drive. But they don't, because they want to work for those cars, and they want their contemporaries see the things they've achieved. It matters less than you'd think, that it's a (sorry Krammeh! :shy pretty inane pastime. All online "games" are inane in comparison with their real-world counterparts.

The structured environment and the reward are the key. Get those established and you can create a win.

Quote from Kamrock :

Bah, we don't mention the I word (it's where my job went).

Mine too, but I just accepted a new one - keep trying, you'll get there

Quote :

When Becky's (2nd gen?) STCC system introduced the UF1000 server, I was gobsmacked that it took off.

Sometimes you need to tell LFS'rs what is best for them. If they had it their way every server would be set to LX8's and nobody would be racing them! UF1's give great racing.

Quote :

I remember thinking that it wouldn't matter what Becky ate, 24 carrat nuggets would always fall out of her arse.

I have nothing to add to this, I just wanted to quote it because i'm a narcassist.

Quote :

The structured environment and the reward are the key. Get those established and you can create a win.

I totally agree. I make no secret that at the time I drew on MMO's for inspiration of the gameplay maths and mechanics of the system. I don't think you could replace CTRA now though and be as sucessful, the userbase would be up for something new, but not more of the same. If I had the time and money I have some ideas, but I dont - and i'm not selling my soul for a passionate project again unless I need to ressurect my career with a new project, and touch wood I don't have to do that for a few more years yet .

"Most accidents go unreported and undealt with and that's fine, it was never about dealing with the accidents. It's about keeping people happy and providing a place for experienced and skilled racers to do pickup racing without the "gamers".

Succinctly written. This is what I'm missing in LFS since the demise of the CTRA system. I don't think in all the time spent racing FOX and FO8 servers there was ever a need to raise a report. Clean and considerate racing was the norm. This is why I wondered whether an automated system coupled to higher rank servers could cut down admin time. I glance over at iracing and wonder if that's where I should be, but like other people I'm not willing to rent a game and the LFS ethos still attracts. Outside of leagues is the problem with LFS the fact that people love the physics but don't really want a sim? Another thing I did notice on CTRA servers was that if admin turned up, suddenly racing became a lot cleaner (if you could bottle up that fear and automate it your halfway there).

Nigel.

Sam, Becky And Kamrock.

Quick word just to say thanks for the detailed and insightful posts. I would have replied earlier but got sidetracked by Becky's "Nick Griffin" debate and the even more important "red string/blue string" topic (jaw dropping).

Just a leaving thought to Sam. I do wonder if inane is the wrong (too harsh a) word to describe computer gaming. Many sports, hobbies, and pastimes could be considered inane, but we leave people alone with what they enjoy. (One exception being darts on TV).



One final quick point. From an early age we start collating data and devising competitions and games. Our lad started school not long ago and from the off they're in a house team and collecting points or "stars". I think this stays with us throughout our lives, it's in our psyche, and can be (is) a more powerful force than boredom pushing the other way. From grassroots to professional sport and games, collecting points/stats is not seen as peculiar.There's no reason it should be in racing games either. Imagine TMS without the stats. I really think LFS is missing a trick in this department. I,m sorry if this last paragraph comes across as bo***cks, I'll get me coat and disappear now, thanks, Nigel.

Quote from NigelY :

Just a leaving thought to Sam. I do wonder if inane is the wrong (too harsh a) word to describe computer gaming. Many sports, hobbies, and pastimes could be considered inane..

Perhaps "inane" was too harsh. "Frivolous" would be better. I did use the word "inane" specifically in comparison with real-world counterparts. Compared with driving/racing (and crashing), LFS is a smidge "inane", and certainly "frivolous" - ask Massa. And the other game that I play a lot of at the moment, while Battlefield2 certainly is hilarious fun for me, it's totally asinine compared with ACTUALLY swapping bullets in Afghanistan or Iraq.. as any modern-day soldier will attest.

Crossed lines somewhere, my fault. Bullets/Afghanistan/Iraq////hobbies/sports/pastimes doesn't sit easily.
Out of context might sum it up.