It's kinda like saying the 747 needs an afterburner in X-Plane.

Quote from carey :

That was my point, that in nKpro you can't sort a car out, while at a corner (like in LFS) so it's more realistic having to set yourself up before hand.

I'm sure everyone else understands that, but to me it's jibberish. Any chance of rephrasing it for my stupid brain? Ta!

Quote from carey :

Also, I read something that you wrote about your Reynard, that you could actually weave without spinning (unlike LFS) so wouldn't that suggest Live for Speed has too little grip?

It's something that afflicts all racing games, and comes down to not being able to feel the forces and subtleties of vehicle reaction. Try it in one of LFS's single seaters - 60mph, and then weave left to right using about 100° of lock in either direction nearly as fast as you can. Do it in any other sim and it'll also spin out.

Do some driving in LFS, then plot the speed vs lateral g you can manage. I would put money on you being able to pull more g in LFS at any given speed* than in an equivalent car in reality.

*between 20mph and 250mph; outside of this range it'll probably not be quite as accurate

Um, in real life you always have a chance to correct things. The sims that make out you are stuck with your initial approach are WRONG.

Apart from rFactor's funny take on gravity, no. 9.81m/s/s. It's very simple (relative to programming anything else) to get gravity right. And g in lateral terms isn't really gravity, it's just the lateral acceleration divided by 9.81 to get it in terms of gravity.

yer i been playing rfactor latly and yer id dosent feel quiet right.

as for the lfs needs more grp im sorry mate u are WRONG

the transition from grip to slip and yer theirs things that need to be fixed.

but with all the newest patchs its becoming alot closer to RL

when you are driving on the limit, you are always making minor adjustments, it's the same for formula 1 drivers (actually search for "micheal schumacher driving style" on youtube, in some part it shows him making 3 to 4 adjustments in a corner, and it was Ross Brawn talking, so he knows what he is saying)

Of course all driver anticipates before entering a corner, but in real life with so many variables, no two entries will be exactly the same, and hence there are always the need or adjustments, even though for a good driver it will be very minor.

There does not exist a difference between games that "have a outright attack approach" or "require thinking before hand".

Rac with "Optimal" temp tyres , hass exelent grip , even the lx6 hass a good grip ,so is ok for me...

That isn't the case really, I understand in Indy, when on a qualify lap, you have to commit to the corner, have your throttle totally flat and believe the car will stick to the track. But on a road course there are also these commitment corners, in fact most of the fast corners are like this (for example on castle combe), in constrast to delicate slower corners.

The difference is just that, in faster corner which requires precision and have little room for error, you tend to think it as a commitment corner, while in slower corners with more room and possible lines, you tend to think it is a manupulative corner.

so in my opinion it's more a factor of car and corner design, more than a fundamental difference in approach.

Quote from carey :

We may have to agree to disagree on this one. Formula 1 drivers (well the majority of them) seem to know when they’re approaching a corner incorrectly and, adjust before hand.

And they adjust in the corner too. Show me an example of a car/driver incapable of correcting a car IN a corner.

Quote from carey :

I wonder what makes you a better racer overall though, the games that reward an outright attack approach, or those that get you thinking about the twisty bits before they arrive.

The best drivers are the ones that think how to attack the corner before they get there, are capable of fine tuning their technique within the corner, all without compromising their speed out of the corner.

Quote from carey :

Well I’m sure most people know what the ‘R’ stands for, but myself and others have had odd occurrences of gravity (or the lack of it) in LFS.

Example? I've not seen gravity being wrong in LFS, even when cars are hundreds of feet in the air. Some cars roll a bit too easily (UFR for example), but that's not the fault of gravity's simulation.

So you think cars shouldn't be adjustable mid-corner on the basis that Piquet can't? What about Alonso? Or Plato? Or even me?

You clearly don't know much about driving. Every driver (of any calibre) sets the car up for the corner, and sorts out the sutble slides and nuances once he's got there. It's what racing drivers do.

I'd love to see the replays in which you think gravity is wrong. I suspect you'll end up showing a completely different bug - e.g. the red/white barrier collision bug, which has nothing to do with gravity being wrong.

Quote from carey :

There are many, many replays.

I think you're referring to the common red-barrier / crash-launch-to-space syndrome, but this has nothing to do with gravity. It's a faulty collision response code that cannot deal with certain parts of the car intersecting objects correctly, creating huge get-unstuck forces that launch the cars into the air. However, even subjected to these silly forces the cars behave perfectly well in respect to gravity. There's nothing wrong with gravity in LFS.

Quote from carey :

I should have saved all the replays when I have rolled mid-corner.

<nitpicking mode>Center of mass might be off on some cars, but the gravity and therefor the center of gravity is correct.</nitpicking mode>

honestly I also have problem with Grip.
Actually the grip is much lower than in any race game I played b4.
But if its the way cars are behave in reality I don't wanna to be it like dirt or NFS.
In fact i prefer it to be hard to play but realistic since this is the point of the sim.
You my check this video i think in lfs its still better situation when we talking bout 150 km/h
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw1O1xeD-D4

Anyway i suggest you to download some replays with good times and be amazed how ppl are able to go trough corners at high speed and almost no lost of grip.I still don't know how they do that but its pretty amazing.

Quote from carey :

All your posts

I have to say that you appear to speak with the knowledge of someone that has not actually driven a car. If you have then someone that has not spent real time exploring the limits of grip, just driving around town which is NOTHING like the driving in LFS.

As to you saying don't drive with eyes closed... I NEVER SAID THAT. I said drive with ONE EYE closed at 60mph (Very slow speed in reality) to see what a lack of depth perception does. This is similar to driving in LFS where there is NO depth perception. If someone does this in an unsafe place and hurts themselves you could say it is natural selection at work!

Most people that complain about grip in LFS don't realise they are driving far faster than they think then wonder why it feels like ice. I real life try and take a roundabout at 60mph and see how ice like everything feels rotf

1) LFS grip IS too high. A road car like the GTi should not pull 1.1+G in a corner.
2) If you can't catch a mistake in a corner you have entered too hot. That is just driver error. Even high speed high downforce like F1 you constantly see some drivers fight and catch the car in corners.

Answer me this... If it is not possible to catch a car when out of shape how the hell do drifters drift? (This should be a great read)

Quote from Chupacabras84 :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw1O1xeD-D4

Apparently rather old tyre and, I think, M+S at that. We don't know the condition of the suspension, we don't know anything about the other 3 tyres, but something's probably not quite right. We don't know the road surface temperature either, probably pretty cold.
The driver, while lucky and quick enough to hold it, did make a mistake though. You can clearly hear the engine rev pretty much all the way to the limiter, why didn't he lift earlier?

Anyway, real life grip is not that bad, given a well maintained vehicle and situation-aware driving, if that makes any sense at all

Quote from carey :

I should have saved all the replays when I have rolled mid-corner.

This is down to:
a) too much grip - not going to a be a problem ongoing
b) perhaps slightly too little roll inertia allowing too much angular acceleration
c) excessively stiff setups, cause by tracks that perhaps aren't bumpy enough, combined with point a

Quote from carey :

The quickest driver’s have a second sense (or just lots of experience) about what the car’s going to do and adjust accordingly. If every driver was leaving it until the last minute then there would be loads of overtaking in F1.

No second sense, just feeling the subtleties of the car and what it's suggesting it will do. 10 laps will give you all that information for a new car or grip level.

You can't correct a slide before it happens, but you will be made aware of the impending slide a lot sooner than you would in a video game. With your butt, you can feel the back end of the car accelerating through the slip angle zone faster than it should long before you ever feel anything in the wheel. In a game you have to wait for the wheel, meaning waiting for the tires to fully pass the optimum slip angle and start pulling the wheel into countersteer.

For the record, slide = more than 1 degree over optimum slip angle.

The grip level feels fine to me in LFS, but I don't have a FFB wheel so I can't really comment.

Quote from carey :

Drift cars are completely different.

How?

Quote from carey :

When other young people I know try and drift in their cars, they end up curbing the thing!

That's because they're talentless morons.

I'll just leave this here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPCGnkApnDU

And I knew the FWD thing would be the response as well.

Anywho, ever watch Top Gear? Every time a RWD car (and most 4WDs) is tested, they drift it.

Ever seen Lewis Hamilton (or most other F1 drivers) correct a slide mid corner?

A car does not need to be modified to drift it, or to be able to catch a slide.

Quote from carey :

Power, steering etc.

So horsepower and steering? How is that "completely different"?

Here, watch this video: go to 14:40 and watch me drift my racing kart in celebration. This is a car set up by some of the best karters in the US to be as fast a racing car as possible, and yet I can still drift it.

http://vimeo.com/5556983

Quote from carey :

Well why post it then? I was going to bring up the
Because Clarkson & Hammond can't go round corners properly. Does the Stig drift on every corner?

No, but he does get very out of shape sometimes, and usually manages to correct it.

Quote from carey :

Tell all the people I know who have bent chassis arms and broken drive shafts then.

Just because they 'ran out of talent' or didn't have room to correct doesn't mean it's impossible to save something if the car looses grip.
You mentioned curbing earlier - was that how this damaged was caused? Not every slide or loss of control has a curb jump out and hit you. Start sliding around in the old SO before the curbs got protected by armco and you'll get the same situation.

Quote from carey :

Yes, but you also see some unbelievable driving where with one smooth input (ie; not Felipe Massa in his Sauber days), they enter a corner and exit without any drama.

I'm sorry, I thought this thread was about realistic (or unrealistic) responses to realistic driver inputs and situations. I didn't realise it was about the fact that everybody always drives perfectly and if perfect control is lost it's always the fault of the car and, of course, that a car sustains damage every time control is lost.

Quote from carey :

A kart, alright...

Yes, a kart. One of the twitchiest, most difficult-to-drive-fast animals on four wheels.

If you bash the kart, you display a complete lack of understanding about driving anything. Even Ayrton Senna said a kart is a bastard (paraphrase).

Your argument: a racing car cannot be drifted/caught/saved. Well, it can. Wouldn't be much of a racing car if it keeled over and died at the first sign of trouble, would it?

carey, if you think it is hard to roll a car, watch 'Crashin'. It's 4 parts, 2h in summary, of race crashes. It is easy as hell to roll.

Grip understeer will be fixed in upcoming and maybe in later patches, but overall lack of grip feeling is case of mega stiff setups + perception of PC screen.
I've seen latest rain race video of Tristan, I thought 'is it cruising or what?' Looking at G-meter said it was not cruising, nor speedometer... Just after that I jumped in FOX (in LFS) and, wow, it was amazingly FAST, I was scaried!
That's human perception, it's lie and can change by 180* in 5 minutes.

Go test some soft setups, look at speeds your are trying to take corner at, than run imagination and think 'would I take this corner at 140km/h in real life?'
If yes, write about it here before you try.

Quote from carey :

Err... in real life and, other (possibly) more realistic games, you don't have the chance to correct a car if you've approached a corner incorrectly.

Is what you said.

If you don't make mistakes, you're not going very fast.

Quote from carey :

He also said the first time he drove one in the wet he was overtaken by everything. What’s your point, that racing is indeed difficult?

You said the quote above this. Since a kart is one of the most difficult cars to drive, and since I, a mere 2 year noob, can drift it, it is most definitely very possible, if even easy, to correct during a corner.

Now I'm cofused.. Did you ever seen onboard footage of race driving?