Quote from mcintyrej :

I've never really been big into indy car racing and the likes, but it sounds to me like a pretty good finished. To try and help this argument a bit, just from reading and not having seen a replay, I don't think the "block" was intentional.

You have to remember that Phil was also racing Nolan, and if he wanted a good run at him on the final turn and the exit, then staying behind Nolan through turn 2 was the best option - I'm not just saying that because they're my team mates, I'm saying that because its what I would have done and I suspect quite a lot of others too.

this will be most likely my last response to this dilemma, however like wild just said, if he was racing nolan and myself for the win and he was not teammates with nolan...no way in hell does he stay behind the car in front there. He would of passed him knowing that coming out of t3 he would be behind with the draft momentum and ability to pass... All there is to it is that teammates held a bottom line and blocked early in the lap when it wasnt necessary.

Anyway, an indexed version of the broadcast can be found here under the 'indexed recordings'. It's called 2009Kyoto500

Timeline is running, but I can't rewind it.

Yann said you can.

I dunno myself haven't tried.

Quote from TexasLTU :

Timeline is running, but I can't rewind it.

Did you download it or are you just streaming?

I had to go and work whilst waiting for the race to start so I missed it and have now more or less seen the result/controversy darn it ! I'm downloading, and hope to watch it sometime soon. If only for the end which sounds hugely exciting.

Quote :

Let's wait for STCC's answer now.

There's no competition between anyone broadcasting, if anything, i'd like to work with existing broadcasters - like these guys - and share resources and tools etc. I'm still undecided exactly which project i'm going to focus on though, i'm talking to people on that one but I wont go further into that in this thread.

I can't wait to see this race, but I think it'll be a day downloading !

Quote from VECCHIONI :

this will be most likely my last response to this dilemma, however like wild just said, if he was racing nolan and myself for the win and he was not teammates with nolan...no way in hell does he stay behind the car in front there. He would of passed him knowing that coming out of t3 he would be behind with the draft momentum and ability to pass... All there is to it is that teammates held a bottom line and blocked early in the lap when it wasnt necessary.

And teammates are not allowed to hold a bottom line? If they thought it was necessary to hold the bottom line then they can do it, nothings stopping them. As for the whole ''you should've passed instead of slowed down'' thats just bull. If he wants to stay behind someone let him do it, even if you believe it was a dissadvantage he may see something you don't.

Quote from Becky Rose :

There's no competition between anyone broadcasting, if anything, i'd like to work with existing broadcasters - like these guys - and share resources and tools etc. I'm still undecided exactly which project i'm going to focus on though, i'm talking to people on that one but I wont go further into that in this thread.

Well, yeah, there's no competition, but I just meant that we know that you want to provide a great show, we had for the first time replays and some nice informations about the drivers in the bottom left of the screen, so we'll see if we have any other innovations for the STCC broadcasts. I'm just happy to see that the ways of broadcasting are improving very quickly. As we know the STCC vids on YouTube gave the opportunity to many of us to discover LFS, so I(and the whole community I suppose) definitively think that the next season of the STCC is gonna be really nice and will really bring something else to the community so I'm definitively waiting for it.


Anyway I downloaded the indexed version and it works absolutely fine for me. I can rewind the vid without problem.

Also if anyone's interrested I uploaded the last 10 laps of the race on YouTube : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZveq0ypoxs

Quote from 'GreyBull [CHA :

Also if anyone's interrested I uploaded the last 10 laps of the race on YouTube : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZveq0ypoxs

I think I'll do some stuff in HD. some scenes, some replays with the live commentary but "remastered" in the future... though I'll only do some scenes, as the full race has been broadcasted very very very well...

Quote from evilpimp :

And teammates are not allowed to hold a bottom line?

Of course they are allowed to hold the bottom line. It's just the fact that he said that he was battling him when he was not ...

Quote :

I was battling him. I wasn't going to make a pointless move entering turn 2, and get behind the 2 of you. I also didn't want to be in the lead exiting turn 2, knowing I probably wouldn't be there when we pass the line. Just because you have a big draft, doesn't mean we are going to move over for you on the last lap.

Quote from evilpimp :

If they thought it was necessary to hold the bottom line then they can do it, nothings stopping them. As for the whole ''you should've passed instead of slowed down'' thats just bull.

How exactly is it bull?

Quote from evilpimp :

If he wants to stay behind someone let him do it, even if you believe it was a dissadvantage he may see something you don't.

There was nothing that he seen that we didn't... They just didn't want to draft each other and possibly let Tim win it ... They had to win it, you could see by their drafting throughout the whole race that they had to.

Quote from wild :

There was nothing that he seen that we didn't... They just didn't want to draft each other and possibly let Tim win it ... They had to win it, you could see by their drafting throughout the whole race that they had to.

And what's wrong with that? Everybody wants to win, and nobody is forced to make space on the inside, it was clear (at least to me) that they will take the inside line for the last turn (who wouldn't to be honest, after all it's the finish of a 3h long race and you've got the chance to win). Vecchioni tries to force his way through and gets caught out, his fault, unlucky, but still his own fault it's the last lap for god's sake nobody would open that line there (unless you're on an FM powered oval, they've got different rules there, which is fine of course).

Quote from troy :

And what's wrong with that? Everybody wants to win, and nobody is forced to make space on the inside, it was clear (at least to me) that they will take the inside line for the last turn (who wouldn't to be honest, after all it's the finish of a 3h long race and you've got the chance to win). Vecchioni tries to force his way through and gets caught out, his fault, unlucky, but still his own fault it's the last lap for god's sake nobody would open that line there (unless you're on an FM powered oval, they've got different rules there, which is fine of course).

Exactly!!!!

Its a race not a friendly Sunday drive. Unless your being lapped there are no rules about which side you have to pass on, or needing to leave a line open. That's just foolish thinking. Of course Phil is going to stay behind Nolan and they are going to finish 1-2 if they can. That's the point of teams!!! It is the same in all motor sports. I'm sure Phil was going to try and pass Nolan BUT....he was going to make sure you didn't pass him first.

How could anyone think differently?
Great race to watch. Thanks for all the hard work you guys put into it. It really shows!!!!!!!!

PS: Way to go HaVoc!! (K. Meyer) Bump & Jumper my ass

Todd

Quote from troy :

And what's wrong with that? Everybody wants to win, and nobody is forced to make space on the inside, it was clear (at least to me) that they will take the inside line for the last turn (who wouldn't to be honest, after all it's the finish of a 3h long race and you've got the chance to win). Vecchioni tries to force his way through and gets caught out, his fault, unlucky, but still his own fault it's the last lap for god's sake nobody would open that line there (unless you're on an FM powered oval, they've got different rules there, which is fine of course).

There is simply a difference between clean and dirty racing. Watch EITHER of them the whole race, and then watch me, wild, havoc, or any FM guy and you will CLEARLY see what I am talking about. Yea they might of went 1-2, but I highly feel the official results should stay that way due to several incidents and careless driving throughout the race.

Quote from Mp3 Astra :

Did you download it or are you just streaming?

Downloaded.

Quote from VECCHIONI :

There is simply a difference between clean and dirty racing. Watch EITHER of them the whole race, and then watch me, wild, havoc, or any FM guy and you will CLEARLY see what I am talking about. Yea they might of went 1-2, but I highly feel the official results should stay that way due to several incidents and careless driving throughout the race.

You call it dirty, I call it racing, there is no rule enforcing anyone letting people by on the left. Of course you will be faster like that, but it's still a race and not some kind of big slipstreaming event. Sometimes there is just no room to make a move, the sensible racer finds another way past while the not so sensible racer crashes, it's as easy as that.

Quote from troy :

You call it dirty, I call it racing, there is no rule enforcing anyone letting people by on the left. Of course you will be faster like that, but it's still a race and not some kind of big slipstreaming event. Sometimes there is just no room to make a move, the sensible racer finds another way past while the not so sensible racer crashes, it's as easy as that.

qft.

disclaimer: I was really impressed by Vecchioni's driving all race long (until the last lap), and did have some issues with some moves Nolan made (though he did directly apologize for what I thought was the worst of them in his victory interview).

Quote from wild :

Yes of course he was racing Nolan, there isn't a problem regarding that.

"If he wanted a good run at him on the final turn and the exit" Then it would have made more sense for him to have passed him and gained more momentum and speed to get an even better run. Instead of losing speed and letting off the throttle to stay behind ...

I wouldn't have done it nor any other Oval racer I know would have 'blocked' there. They would have more than likely either blocked after turn 2 or on the s/f straight ...

The reason I would have stayed behind was to get a draft coming out of the last turn. I'd fall back, get some room to pick up speed in the draft, and then gun it going into the final turn - pick up speed through the turn where his car is slowing down due to turning, then pass on the exit.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

qft.

disclaimer: I was really impressed by Vecchioni's driving all race long (until the last lap), and did have some issues with some moves Nolan made (though he did directly apologize for what I thought was the worst of them in his victory interview).

Well thank you. To clear up about racing, ive only done this for 3 weeks now ;-) so I am still learning. I watch racing all the time and its just respect for other drivers to race clean the ENTIRE race...just me I guess and everyone will have there diff opinions...id rather be safe and race safe then dirty and chance getting hurt.

Quote from Toddshooter :

Exactly!!!!

Its a race not a friendly Sunday drive. Unless your being lapped there are no rules about which side you have to pass on, or needing to leave a line open. That's just foolish thinking. Of course Phil is going to stay behind Nolan and they are going to finish 1-2 if they can. That's the point of teams!!! It is the same in all motor sports. I'm sure Phil was going to try and pass Nolan BUT....he was going to make sure you didn't pass him first.

How could anyone think differently?
Great race to watch. Thanks for all the hard work you guys put into it. It really shows!!!!!!!!

PS: Way to go HaVoc!! (K. Meyer) Bump & Jumper my ass

Todd

Thank you, and Troy for understanding the common sense. And yeah, Havoc was a great racer out there, and freaking hard to get away from.

Quote :

Watch EITHER of them the whole race, and then watch me, wild, havoc, or any FM guy and you will CLEARLY see what I am talking about.

Oh, I forgot about the legends of wide open, slicked tire oval racing. Havoc was clean, so I enjoyed his driving quite a bit. Vecchioni caused the accident between him and Marsh, which also destroyed another 8 cars. Wild, you were going to get in the middle of the battle for the lead in the last 10 laps to help Vecchioni, and according to what you guys are talking about that is very dirty... The FM guys weren't that clean IMO. It seemed when me and Nolan were out in front, they loved to hug the low line and block us from passing them, and then one of them decided to try and take us out by pinning us up against the start straight wall while doing 190mph. All of these things were viewed live or through the replay feature of the stream.

Once again, this isn't an FM server where you are forced to let the car behind pass you low because he/she is going "faster", nor is there a rule to only pass low.

I'm going to be perfectly honest here.

All this whining, complaining, arguing, and whatever else you want to call it is just purely silly. I'm sorry, this is all pissing me off. I pretty much thought that everyone drove like crap on Saturday. EVERYONE did at least one thing wrong. Everyone hit something or someone else during the day. The Safety car is the only thing that I think didn't get hit by anyone. What I saw on track, a lot of it, was not something I'd want the over 500 some odd viewers we had to see. It was abysmal.

Now I have to spend more of my time going through every person's race, to get everything we missed. Because of this, the results are HIGHLY provisional. I'm sorry, but I was not happy with the race, I was disappointed in the quality of driving shown from almost every driver, from those with little experience to those with the most. Way too much stuff that was uncalled for. I found it quite appalling.

A still not happy dekojester.

Quote from PMD9409 :

Wild, you were going to get in the middle of the battle for the lead in the last 10 laps to help Vecchioni

I seen no where in the rules that I wasn't allowed to join the battle in the last 10 laps, I didn't think it would have been that much of a problem.

I was happy enough to back out of it when told to We'd better stop this or Deko will kill us

Quote from wild :

I seen no where in the rules that I wasn't allowed to join the battle in the last 10 laps, I didn't think it would have been that much of a problem.

I was happy enough to back out of it when told to We'd better stop this or Deko will kill us

See where I bolded? That's the bit you got to understand. We never blocked, we held our line the whole straight (low-lining). And guess what, none of it is stated in the rules.

Thank you.

mhh... roumours says, deko is loading his gun(s) and is now going to go to everyone's house (at least to those who were involved in this) and doing the most special banhammer on you, anyone could possibly think of...

to be serious again: I don't think that discussion on such a level is appropriate at this point of time...

All people who are saying that the finishing block was illiegal seem to be ignoring the NDR Sporting Code which was ALSO in effect at the event, as it is at any NDR event.

In section VI. Overtaking, under Part 3 it details our stance on overtaking. I basically took what it said off of the Clean Racer's Club rules at the time, and pretty much any other series. Using this rule is part of the reason why there is no penalty for the finish.

Any racer who didn't know that the Sporting Code was in effect could be penalized under the knowledge of rules part of that document.

NDR Sporting code at http://www.lfsforum.net/attach ... id=81783&d=1239164667

d

Quote from dekojester :

All people who are saying that the finishing block was illiegal seem to be ignoring the NDR Sporting Code which was ALSO in effect at the event, as it is at any NDR event.

In section VI. Overtaking, under Part 3 it details our stance on overtaking. I basically took what it said off of the Clean Racer's Club rules at the time, and pretty much any other series. Using this rule is part of the reason why there is no penalty for the finish.

Any racer who didn't know that the Sporting Code was in effect could be penalized under the knowledge of rules part of that document.

NDR Sporting code at http://www.lfsforum.net/attach ... id=81783&d=1239164667

d

2. Conduct
a. Any Racer who causes an incident as a result of not establishing overlap, or by turning in on a car against whom they had no right, are expected to wait for the other car to pass them even if that action involves losing several positions.
b. Failure to follow this will result in a penalty.

Does this not correspond to the Ronald incident?

3. Defending Position
a. You may move once per track segment (between two corners) to prevent an overtaking maneuver.
b. You may return to your line after that move. You may make no further moves to obstruct until the next track segment.
c. If a driver has attained any measure of overlap, you may consider your defensive maneuver to have failed and must allow room for that car on the course.

What exactly do you consider a measure of overlap? Maybe going 7-8 mph, faster then them? I am sorry deko, I do not mean to argue, but if this is how you are going to do it by the rules then please explain to me how they are following the rules stated...