If you pass someone all the way around the outside, they have to co-operate. The longer distance is of course slower, unless the car on the inside has some reason to slow then they should just take the normal line, run out wide on the exit and you have to at some point slot back in behind them. A collision would be your fault entirely.

(All very overlap dependent of course).

1) Dive for the inside, if you know your certainly going to get him
2) if on a slow corner try dropping down the gears, so you can achive the most run out of the corner.
3) Try keep as close as his car as possible, even a little rubbing of the wing mirrors! and take advantage of the rumble strip!

Quote from dmwright :

1) Dive for the inside, if you know your certainly going to get him

3) Try keep as close as his car as possible, even a little rubbing of the wing mirrors!

[KR] Racing Team - Kart Racers!
[KR] NOFEAR
Best Combo XFG + BL1
Karter Coming through!

Quote from [SWE]RE :

Hrm, I did that too in the same clip I linked to above.

Yes I know, I watched your video, good stuff there.
The point is to try and move the car aside away from the ideal line as possible, so that he can't take the ideal turn-in. And while he's losing speed on the entry and although he's on the apex and you're not, you should be carrying more speed and be aside him all the time and from apex on you got the wider turn out line as he and he will lose time on acceleration so you can out drag him into the next corner. But both drivers must respect each other and give enough room and try to close or squeeze another too much. And like sinbad said in case of an accident it's your fault entirely.

Quote from zeugnimod :

[KR] Racing Team - Kart Racers!
[KR] NOFEAR
Best Combo XFG + BL1
Karter Coming through!

Haha

So that's why I get fired off then!

I can assure you that I drive very sensibly, giving other competers 'plenty' of room. And very willing to give out 'helpful' advice

bawbag is a cheater

You could also brake earlier if your on the outside.

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=2FkslH9VgBw

Quote from Takumi_lfs :

bawbag is a cheater

You could also brake earlier if your on the outside.

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=2FkslH9VgBw

woah ! that was perfect ! ( btw... what is the name of that song ? i like it :shy




( i tried to put my .MPR file of a overtake but it didnt upload... )

The easiest way to overtake someone that is always blocking the inside is position yourself on the outside, then braking early, and early back on the gas, as the other guy has to drive a early apex, you can drive a late apex and acclerate earlier then him out of the corner, placing yourself then on the inside on exit of the turn.

Villeneuve drives deep into the corner on the outside, loses a bit of ground then but by just staying there a bit MSC has to compromise his exit back off / get out of the gas because he cant use the whole width of the track:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlFWvaQCS1w


Then at the video below watch at 0:48 Montoya overtaking Schumacher around the outside at Dunlop corner.

2:04 Montoya on the outside around Schumacher in the chicane

2:39 JPM again around the outside, you see he forces MSC to go wide to the inside to block, and then he is able to take the race line.

2:47 Schumacher brakes early on the outside, and then get the run on JPM on exit. That is what I meant at the top of the post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6xwLC9Vlkk


The dark blue line is the car that is blocking the inside, he goes more wide then you on exit, the light blue can be you behind him.

You bring up a very interesting point! It's quite simple, actually.

The driver in front is using a very powerful tactic by staying on the inside. However, he has to slow down enough to keep the car on the tighter radius needed to get around the corner. If you are on the outside, you can brake slightly earlier than normal, drive the right line for the corner behind the car, and time it so you are closing in on the car by the time you've passed the apex to the corner.

Skip Barber points out 'Surprisingly, this doesn't happen very much. Seeing a car drive defensively up the inside tends to befuddly the driver on the outside and more often than not, they give up the passing attempt!'

Just what has happened to you)

Good Luck!

Quote from George Kuyumji :

2:47 Schumacher brakes early on the outside, and then get the run on JPM on exit. That is what I meant at the top of the post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6xwLC9Vlkk


The dark blue line is the car that is blocking the inside, he goes more wide then you on exit, the light blue can be you behind him.

Perfect example!

Quote from vitali.88 :

Skip Barber points out 'Surprisingly, this doesn't happen very much. Seeing a car drive defensively up the inside tends to befuddly the driver on the outside and more often than not, they give up the passing attempt!'

and this doesn't seem to happen too much in LFS either.

A lot of the time the fear of loosing exit speed causes the inside driver to try and make the corner faster then is physically acceptable rather then manipulate the competition by doing something unexpected. Staying calm and holding the position is better then achieving a faster corner exit. But you must force the outside driver to have to slow to your speed and second guess their point of getting on the throttle. Otherwise they will pass you after the corner in most the time. The driver on the outside wants the inside competition to attempt maximum exit speed so they can switch back then take the inside, because of the physical position of their car on the outside allows them to do so. The inside driver should know that the outside driver will be looking for a switch back maneuver to overtake them, then use their advantage of the inside position to maintain position and not be tricked or bullied into giving it up. But at the same time this is LFS. So you have to know that your opponent is capable of driving the car in an adaptive manner through the corner and isn't someone who attempts to take the corner the same way every time regardless of who is around them. AKA: a hotlapper. These people will run right into you and then blame you for not pulling over and waving a white flag. More then likely though, this type of driver will end up ruining their race on their own at some point.

Isn't it something how in any completive sport or game, competitors that can use trickery in combination with a skill set or knowledge of the sport can figure out ways to win?

Jay

Fights against a good defender when you are a bit faster or defending against a faster racer are always very interesting, they are the ones that make me play LFS.
No matter if they last 2-3 corners or the whole race, they bring a broad smile on my face.
Forget about speed / WRs, that is not where the excitement lies in LFS (there is not enough adrenaline to be found there, you can wreck / respawn and lap again until you master one combo...), what you really want is a place to race with racers about your speed who want to drive clean and fair, but win in the end.

So please do try to defend as well as attack, cleanly but with cunning and determination to win, this will brighten everybody's race.

Quote from Mille Sabords :

Fights against a good defender when you are a bit faster or defending against a faster racer are always very interesting, they are the ones that make me play LFS.
No matter if they last 2-3 corners or the whole race, they bring a broad smile on my face.
Forget about speed / WRs, that is not where the excitement lies in LFS (there is not enough adrenaline to be found there, you can wreck / respawn and lap again until you master one combo...), what you really want is a place to race with racers about your speed who want to drive clean and fair, but win in the end.

So please do try to defend as well as attack, cleanly but with cunning and determination to win, this will brighten everybody's race.

Agreed. To be cunning in a battle is by far the high point of LFS for me. I like to drive and be faster at a combo. But memorable moments are made with other drivers in a battle.

I have a mpr where I managed to outwit a driver and do a full outside pass on SO6 in a FBM. It was in the corner on the first sector where you turn right under the bridge and then go uphill to the back straight. Afterward I was so shocked of what I had managed to do, I forgot to shift and lost the position. I was an incredible feeling though. I will see if I can make a video of it. Fraps seems to run like crap on my PC, but I think I can get it will flash media encoder and a screen capture.

jay

**Edit: I looked a the replay again. I had about 1 or 2 mpg on him going up hill, but hadn't completed the pass yet. Looking at it I should have been able to gain the position on the straight if I hadn't mess the shifting up. But it would have only been a nose of so. Don't know if it is as video worth of some of the ones I've seen. Still a hella lot of fun.

Quote from vitali.88 :

Perfect example!

Yep, that is what you are trying to acheive, but beware the driver taking the inside line can block this move by braking a bit more than needed in the corner, you will then be forced to slow or stay on the outside, if you stay on the outside you will risk being forced off onto the grass as he takes the normal racing line, or if you try and take the inside the driver in front can just defend that line because he is going slow enough now to make a tighter exit to block you wherever you try to go.

What I like to do when I see a driver taking the inside line is to force him to take the tightest line possible, ie by driving very close to the inside line myself behind him, or if alongside then edging over towards him (of course still leaving him plenty of room). Then just before the normal braking point you can dart over to the outside line and hopefully he will be going so slow you can just pass him around the outside before he has realised, or if not it likely won't be able to hold the inside line on the exit and you can take him there like in the clip above with MS against JPM.

I did an outside overtake of a GT2 car in qually of [DSR] GTRemix the replay is around somewhere, was in 2nd and that was my last lap went all the way round the outside and i don't have a clue why my rear bumper didn't snag on this front, extremely close BB wins anyway! (again)

OverTaken around the outsite,

first of all its very hard , and not possible in every corner.
for example dont try it on a corner with negative camber. this will usualy end up in a dissaster.

There are Some corners in lfs, that are just perfect to make a outside pass, i am talking about some corners at fern bay (club)(green)(most of the combo's)

I uploaded 2 replays from a uf baby r race at fe club.
in replay 1 (round 6 race 1) i made some outside passes at lap 5 and lap 19

in replay 2 (round 6 race 2) i made a pass in t1 lap 2

anyhow, the only way too make a pass around the outsite , is by getting a nice exit on the last corner, drafting and then you will carry more speed,
and only one thing left is the braking, becuase you are taking the outside line you can brake like 2 a 3 meter later. this will mean that you can nearly brake at the same moment then where you are braking normaly (be a were that you dont carry to much speed in to the corner)

just some extra infro, you only can outbrake or overtake on the outside when you are before the braking zone next to the guy or in front of him.
DON'T try to brake much later then normal

i hope you will like the replays,,

http://www.conceptracing.net/extra/round6_race1.mpr

http://www.conceptracing.net/extra/round6_race2.mpr

greats,

Reint Jan

Quote from Takumi_lfs :

bawbag is a cheater

You could also brake earlier if your on the outside.

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=2FkslH9VgBw

that is what we call a switch back or not

Overtaking, what's that? Never done that before

My take on overtaking on the outside goes like this, excluding the switch back:

Firstly, remember that the guy on the inside is going to have to brake earlier than you to get round the corner, because he has to take a smaller, tighter radius around the inside.

This allows me to brake later than him, use all of the track on the outside, and maintain a higher speed through a larger radius than him so I get past that way.

Here is a video of 2 consecutive passes around the outside (with commentary! :razz:

Make sure you skip forward to 9 minutes in.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=vde0__Lr8B0&fmt=18

The first pass I make on Dennis May as he brakes earlier than me to keep from running wide on the apex, I brake later, and come from right out wide to maintain more speed than him through the corner.

Then unfortunately in the following corner I go in too hot, and he is able to make a similar move on me again a corner later.

However, normally this kind of racing is only possible when you trust the ability of the other driver not to outbrake himself.

lets see if i got it:

if he goes for a slow in fast out i go for a fast in slow out being me the 1st to get to the apex blocking him

but if he goes for a fast in slow out ill have to go for a slow in fast out overtaking him after the corner

is this correct?

then its extreamly interesting since i have to adivinate whats he gonna do

maradona explained this one as when you shoot a penalty, the keeper guess what side the balls going while the shotter gues what the keeper guest who has now to gues what he guess he guess becoming a fight of powers

nice guy this maradona i like him

Quote from hotmail :

that is what we call a switch back or not

I dont really know what it is called, but I mostly do that. Helps alot.

And I dont know alot about racing. What I do is trying to overtake with all possebilities I can.

Quote from DaveWS :

My take on overtaking on the outside goes like this, excluding the switch back:

Firstly, remember that the guy on the inside is going to have to brake earlier than you to get round the corner, because he has to take a smaller, tighter radius around the inside.

This allows me to brake later than him, use all of the track on the outside, and maintain a higher speed through a larger radius than him so I get past that way.

Well the inside line is fastest regardless of minimum speeds (ovals and banked corners excepted), because it is a lot shorter. 2 cars on a skid pad side by side would not circulate at equal speeds, but the one on the inside would lap a fair bit quicker.

A pass such as the one in your example (nice btw) is only possible if the car on the inside brakes so early that they give up their overlap before turn in, and if they're aggressive or hit their braking point properly, that doesn't happen. If the two cars are side by side in the middle of the corner, then there's only one winner (unless it leads into a corner in the opposite direction or something, or the inside car is too nice), the inside car can simply use all the road on the exit, which is more than the outside car can use, because it's not so far out wide already. They can hit the gas earlier, use all the tarmac and the outside car has to slot in behind or be pushed wide.

Quote from Flame CZE :

.....or you can try to "close" his way by turning in the way of the turn into him, but the overlap must be sufficient.

Yeah that would be the wreckers method
Basically it's not possible to over take someone in to a corner from the outside with out causing them to crash unless you're already completely in front of them to start with; or are so much faster that you are so by the turn in point; or they brake early allowing you to be past them by the turn in point.

All the clean ways to do it have been shown in the first few videos.

Don't whatever you do choose the Montoya option as shown at the begining of the Montoya/Schumacher video, it's called foul play to anyone but a Montoya fan.

Quote from lerts :

lets see if i got it:

if he goes for a slow in fast out i go for a fast in slow out being me the 1st to get to the apex blocking him

but if he goes for a fast in slow out ill have to go for a slow in fast out overtaking him after the corner

is this correct?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean there but, even if the guy is blocking the inside and does a slow in fast out, you can also do that, and because you most likely will be on the outside while turning in you will also be at the racing line, while the guy blocking the inside needs to compromise his line, given that you use the normal race line, you likely will have more momentum out of the turn and you might accelerate by him on the coming straight.

What I would also recommend is not concentrating to hard on what your opponent do, focus on your own line and driving, when under pressure think only about the track and your line, to many people get to obsessed looking and focussing on there opponent all the time they forget there own driving, focus and concentrate mainly on yourself and the track - think you are alone on the track and see the other driver as just a part of the track.

That is deep psychology No seriously I found this tip helps alot its from the book Speed Secrets from Ross Bentley look it up its a great book, alot of Racing tips.