I'm not sure about what should I think.
From one side, it looks really unrealistic to adjust a road car as we do actually. From the other side, maybe one of the biggest advantages of a simulator compared to real life is that the simulator is much cheaper, in money and time. If we don't spend a cent in fuel or tyres maybe we should be able to change all car components. It's true that in my real car I cannot change the ride height, but I can buy other suspension parts with other settings. In real life money is a problem, in a sim, IMHO, only reglament must be the problem.
The ideal would be a mixture of both options. It would be nice to can choose between locked realistic setups and fully adjustable ones.
I would limit HLVC to limited setups, and add a server option to lock/unlock setups.
By the way, I'd like to suggest a setup option wich doesn't exist yet: it would be nice being able to change wheel sides. Im not talking about a sort of lfstweak, but choosing between "equivalent homologated" sizes.

In a word. Yes.

LFS is mean't to be a driving simulator. IF the car is supposed to be a road car it should come with a fixed road car set up. The fact that the car is fictional is irrelevant in my mind.

Of course the "race" versions should have adjustable settings, but even then only such things as would be readily adjustable on a car with a race suspension system and to the same levels of adjustability.

IMO none of the cars in LFS should have what is effectively infinite adjustability in any of the set up options.

Then the only decision that needs to be made when a new tin top car is introduced is whether it's a road car or a race going version of a road car.

Quote from Glenn67 :

I'd think going forward we would see more and more tear level racing servers and on those severs it would be ideal to implement, you are right though on public servers such a system traditionaly wouldn't work.

I think you would need specific support implemented in InSim to make this happen?

Quote from NightShift :

I think you would need specific support implemented in InSim to make this happen?

Agreed and the chances of getting insim support for monitoring setups is fairly reasonable imo - Patch Z8 just got two insim packets for TC and ABS

Quote from Gunn :

Alternatively, the setup flexibility allows us to also address shortcomings in the physics - so there's two sides to that coin. As for realism, why can't we put decent tyres on the road cars? That would be a no-brainer for anyone tackling any race track with a road car. Furthermore, many racing series require a roll cage as a mandatory piece of safety equipment. So the whole realism argument about making road cars like "real" road cars is not very convincing in a racing context.


1c

Hear a lot of talk about realism here, forget all the talk of adjustments for realism, the needed restriction for realism for ALL cars is when racing, that is hotlapping, online or in a single player mode, the only view you can drive from must be in cockpit view,otherwise there is No realism.

Quote from ShannonN :

Hear a lot of talk about realism here, forget all the talk of adjustments for realism, the needed restriction for realism for ALL cars is when racing, that is hotlapping, online or in a single player mode, the only view you can drive from must be in cockpit view,otherwise there is No realism.

edit: For Online Play

/fcv on

Or something along those lines.. its based server side and forces cockpit view. Problem (already) solved.

Quote from kaynd :

16 damper settings per spring setting? This could work… but 16damper settings available for all the spring settings? This is not going to work unless you have 2 damper settings paired with one spring setting… and this gives hardly any adjustability.

IRL some engineers do the R&D, products are made by that and being sold to customers…
That’s not because you can’t put whatever spring or damper you want… but because it’s just inefficient.
Even in these canned products… you have a perfectly matched damper with a specific spring regarding the weight that it’s going to hold, and then you get 8-16 settings to fine tune your damping. If you put different springs you have to re-valve your dampers in order to match with them, so you can again have that small available range of settings to fine tune your vehicle.
Who is going to play that R&D role in LFS? Why I am not able to do that myself?

The stock road car argument does not really stand, because if you are able to change just one suspension spring then why you can't put whatever you want?
If it is just a stock road car as it came from the factory.- then there should be no available suspension settings… Just like Scirrocco.
If it’s all about car classes then let all settings adjustability free and let hosts decide the limitations, as it happens IRL.


If hosts want to have racing activity in their servers, they could just provide a base set for each combo. Problem solved…

There are infinite variability in spring/damper combinations. It is most likely true that for a given car weight and spring rate, there is a vary narrow range of damper settings that will be effective. However, even within that narrow range, there is plenty of variability in the car handling. My point was that unless you go out and get custom springs made, which most club level racers won't do, then you are stuck with whatever is available on the market that will fit your car. You then will probably get custom valved dampers made up for the car with the potential of some limited adjustability on those dampers for track conditions.

For the race platforms, more options should be provided. However, we all know that you can set silly values in LFS for springs and damper rates. Limits should be set more realistically I think.

Many of us like to play the R&D roll. I am not suggesting that if you pix X spring rate that you have to use Damper Y. I am saying you have a choice between x number of spring rate settings and y number of damper combinations. They can be used in whatever combination you want.

In any case, I think the most important thing is allowing servers to be setup to control setup variables in the way wanted. I see this mostly valuable for league racing, but servers like the CTRA could also make valuable use out of it.

What I don't want to lose is the ability to experiment with a wide range of setup possibilities for all the cars. I really don't like that the XRG and the XFi don't have rebound damper settings. It should be there. I know why it was changed, but if we can limit the ranges of settings while keeping the full scope of settings available, then I think it would be better.

Quote from ColeusRattus :

nope. unless they are not people, then yes.

I, and everyone else, will keep referring to racers as racers (that's me), drifters as drifters, and cruisers as cruisers. You can feel free to follow up our posts informing everyone that they are people, since I guess you think no one knows that. Thanks, we appreciate your time!

Yes but have stuff like TC or tyre pressures adjustable

No, because they handle like shit.

I'm for two subclasses for each car.

One with the setup totally locked to the stock settings (even tire pressure; only controller-dependent settings).

And another with 'realistic' setup options that would have to be determined in a methodical way approximating a range of after-market parts. It would be cool if, like the tires now, you could choose specific parts from different manufacturers and so on, but that doesn't technically make any difference as it's just numbers in the end. It would be very cool though.

I also wouldn't object to a third that would be the way it is now: totally open with continuous options because I can see the appeal to this--just imagine that the driver can machine his own parts.

Just my 2-cents.

If it's meant to be a standard production road car, then it should be only possible to adjust the things you can adjust on a similar standard production car. If it's a one-make cup type affair then they should make it look like (in terms of interior, roll cages etc), and spec it to be adjustable like, a similar real-world equivalent.

If they actually categorise these cars properly it would become easy.

Quote from Gunn :

People who suck at racing will still suck at racing, no matter how uniform the setup options are.

Personally I like the level of adjustment we now have, it's one of the interesting aspects of LFS. I really enjoy making sets and tweaking them to the nth degree. Take away the freedom of setup options and another cool part of LFS dies.

That's how I feel about it anyway. The road cars are already a PITA with their $15 tyres, limited setups puts them right out of the game for me. Five less cars to choose from in the garage.



2c

Agreed

IMO it should be that there is some sort of adjustments but not totally

On road cars
spring settings are: Stock - Soft - Hard
and no Fine tuning as most people would not to be able to do that
Roll Bars: Stock - Soft - Hard
if the setting is not to your liking tough..
Toe/in/out and Camber - either not adjustable or only for drifting (I haven't thought this through enough)
Brakes: (this is tough because depending on if you are on a wheel/keyboard/mouse can mean different requirements) this should be again only be 3 settings for Bias Stock, Stock +20%, Stock -20%, while pressure should be eliminated.
Ride Height - Stock - high - Low
Bound and rebound -Locked
Transmission -Stock - Tight - Loose
Again making it only limited makes you suffer the consequences when you go for top speed vs quickness
LSD should only have the choice in types
Downforce -?? not sure probably no adjustment..

just my $0.02

Oh yeah… it is getting better and better…
I really hope that this will be a matter that Scawen will not take in consideration the majority and just do what he wants about it, whatever it is.

Excluding those who have some valid points, trying to state their opinion about the reduction of setup freedom according to car classes, the majority of LFS community wants just less settings to be bothered with…
If this sim goes that way (hard-soft or just 3-4 settings to play with) then good by LFS - welcome CMR, Vrally, Toca…

Anyway.

Quote from Gunn :

People who suck at racing will still suck at racing, no matter how uniform the setup options are.

Keep that in mind.

@Kaynd: I wouldn't worry too much mate. I don't think what we are discussing here actually will come into effect, but it has made for some interesting reading/viewpoints.

I would like to see the camber being locked.

Same goes for gearbox and other parts.

Quote from bandaid :

@Kaynd: I wouldn't worry too much mate. I don't think what we are discussing here actually will come into effect, but it has made for some interesting reading/viewpoints.

You are right. In fact I am not worried that much. It’s just me, bringing out my bad character when I feel helpless knowing that there is no point arguing about some matters because of the ignorance I see, reading many responses in forums generally.

[edit]

Quote from Takumi_lfs :

I would like to see the camber being locked.

here we go... if you are able to change just one spring... even that rated as "hard" in case you do not want to know the stiffness...
Then you are able to put some cheap adjusting bolts that fit in most McPherson strut suspensions and give you usualy a room of +/-1.5 to +/- 3 degrees camber adjustment with absolute accuracy...
There are even some sport oriented cars (nothing exotic) where you have that adjustment ability by factory.

I don't get it Ages ago when I looked on these forums, everyone thought being able to make setups was one of the greatest parts of this game. Everyone must be getting lazy or something to now think it should be locked. I don't understand how making it more limited can make it more fun? Just sounds like there are to many people all pi$$y because they don't have good sets and don't practice enough. 2nd rant for today over.
Have a good xmas!

Quote from kaynd :

here we go...

This reminds me about a particular thread on AC and button clutch macros

Just to be clear - my preference is for as much adjustability as possible - heck I'd love more options - even the ability to design a car from scratch (including aero, suspension and engine packages - heck why not even rubber compounds I'd be in my element ) but I do also want to see setup restrictions to be possible to be set from the server and the ability for servers to distribute a default set for that server to drivers that are joining the server for the first time. That's because I'd really really like to see spec racing

Quote from Glenn67 :

This reminds me about a particular thread on AC and button clutch macros

Just to be clear - my preference is for as much adjustability as possible - heck I'd love more options - even the ability to design a car from scratch (including aero, suspension and engine packages - heck why not even rubber compounds I'd be in my element ) but I do also want to see setup restrictions to be possible to be set from the server and the ability for servers to distribute a default set for that server to drivers that are joining the server for the first time. That's because I'd really really like to see spec racing

Thats something I do agree with. The servers being able to lock setups for a perticular series would be good for series every now and then. add something different to it.

Quote from Glenn67 :

This reminds me about a particular thread on AC and button clutch macros

Just to be clear - my preference is for as much adjustability as possible - heck I'd love more options - even the ability to design a car from scratch (including aero, suspension and engine packages - heck why not even rubber compounds I'd be in my element ) but I do also want to see setup restrictions to be possible to be set from the server and the ability for servers to distribute a default set for that server to drivers that are joining the server for the first time. That's because I'd really really like to see spec racing

Man you where trying to prove your points. (and I was trying to prove mine) This has nothing to do with what I wrote in my previews post.
Anyway I think that I proved my point back then so there is no need for silly smiles ( )



We completely agree in this specific setup limitations case.

Quote from kaynd :

This has nothing to do with what I wrote in my previews post.

/OT No it didn't have anything to do with it other than the way you are responding to this thread very much reminds me of the other thread - which I enjoyed the discusions we had so it brought a smile to my face so the silly smile was/is genuine

@kayn,

To be clear I do love adjustments but the realist in me says no one is going to be spending the time and effort in adjusting spring/shocks/coil overs/Gear Box in a car like the XFG/XRG and tune them to the Nth degree, just seems too illogical. IRL people like me who have sports cars do upgrade our brakes by getting better pads, but not by increasing the pressure.

I have changed out my spring/Strut on my TT my choices were:
$$$Stiff Bilstien, $$Less stiff KYB AGX, -Stock and I forget Since sim racing my TT has been neglected prolly $$$$$$$$$$ (insert coilover brand name)
When I did so I had no control over the ride height or stiffness increments (well except for the brand I bought) I dropped 2cm BTW
Maybe I am not the AVG person but I didnt have a choice of +/-.01 of increments I just had Free, $, $$, $$$, $$$$$$$$$$
doesn't that sound like my idea of options (stock, Stiff and Loose)?

Guess if I play the opposite postion of where I stand its a question of:
Hey I am Poor in REAL LIFE, WHY THE HECK DOES MY SIM LIFE HAVE TO BE THE SAME????

If that is the argument then I totally get it.... sadly I do TOTALLY get it......

I hope Scawen will take this thread seriously. A lot of peoples voted for the two 'Yes'. A lot more than for the 'No'.