http://www.tigerdirect.com/app ... ku=L23-7234&srkey=g25

After having my Driving Force Pro for a number of years, it's time to graduate. Just ordered this today

Quote from buntatofu86 :

Why did the engineers choose a V8? Why did the S2000 engineers, for example, choose a 4 cylinder when they could've gone with a bigger engine? The answer is that they chose the V8 as an easy route for big power and that the other engineers stuck with the lightweight and compact 2.0 liter inline 4, allowing them to not only have the lightest engine possible with minimal inertia, but to mount it entirely behind the front axle, making the car a mid-engine roadster while still squeezing out 250 horsepower.

Ok now, as we are all aware of, road racing is all about the corners. There is a way to truly compare. Detune that ZR1 to 250 hp and let's see if the S2000 (Again just for this example) or the ZR1 will be faster on the Nurburgring. The fact is clear that V8s focus on power. Sure they can be VERY fast on the track, but if you were to engineer a car from scratch, extracting the highest power you can out of the lightest engine possible is the ideal route, instead of thinking "Oh hey let's just simply add more cylinders!" Why not have 24 freakin cylinders then?

These are all track videos from people I know back in LA. They're VERY fast and no slower than professionals, if not faster. This is also proof that it's all about the turns and that horsepower comes second. 4 cylinder cars keep up with and pass V8s like nothing every day.

Emilio breaks 2:00 with his 158 whp Miata on Buttonwillow 13! (1:58 best lap)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_5Xk8xBrqM

Carles Ng driving his Alvaka/949Racing C5 Z06 on Buttonwillow 13 (RWD Modified Class 1st place. 1:56 best lap)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ejcySX0JTc

Manly Kao of trackhq.com driving his Lotus Elise on Buttonwillow 13 (RWD Street Class 1st place. 1:58 best lap)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPQSMRDJ898

Tim Kuo driving the Sport Car Motion Civic on Buttonwillow 13 (FWD Modified Class 1st place. 1:55 best lap)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw84VuetW_0

Here are some videos of my friend Jack. He's the record holder for a bone stock S2000 on SOWS CW at 1:30.33!

Jack driving his AP2 on Button ... ed Class. 2:01 best lap)
Jack going downhill on GMR

And it seems like you are another drag racer, so have you ever thought about how much more hardcore road racing (real racing) is? The G forces experienced under braking and cornering far exceeds that of any straight line acceleration. It doesn't matter how fast a car is because even a 1000 hp car would be more exciting and rewarding on a real race track than a drag strip. Straight line performance is just part of road racing. It's like seeing who can jump higher vs basketball.

There I said it. Sorry for being so harsh but I have seen too many people all over the internet bashing on anything that's not a V8 as if they know what they're talking about (I'm kind of letting it all out on them too, so don't take all this too personally). Normally I don't get into this debate over engines and cars, and I believe that any car can be suitable for the track, because I believe racing (on a road course) is all about the driver. Which brings up another point on how lower powered cars (or cars with just the right amount of power) are best suited for training the race driver due to the bigger penalties in mistakes (harder to use power to mask over and catch up your lost speed), and the importance in watching your entry speed and car's momentum. Momentum cars make fast drivers!

Then there are people who think more power is always better. For drag racing yes. But for road racing, it's all about finding the power that best suits the chassis, suspension, weight, and almost every other aspect of the car! Power, as with any other aspect of a car's setup, should be adjusted accordingly. Would you run a car with 90 degrees negative camber (because more negative is better)? Or would you drive a car with a welded differential on the race track because it's always 100% locked up? Or would you drive a car with 10 wheels on the race track because more wheels mean more traction? Or drive a car with solid suspension (as in no travel at all) because stiffer is better? NO!!! It's just plainly dumb! I hope you get my point.

By the way I do respect you and your work and all V8s and all cars. But I just want people to know the science and facts behind what they're talking about. Sure the fact is V8s usually have more power and sound mean, but there's a bigger picture, especially in the racing world. That is all.

Hate to break it to you, but it was the small engine guys that started bashing me first...look back through the thread. I have no issue with 4cyl cars...in fact, when it's time to get a daily driver so the Tbird can have a much lighter load, I really want to get something like a Mazdaspeed 3. I'm also a big fan of the WRX STI, among other cars. But what I hate is when import lovers come in here acting like they're "better" than everybody else because they use less cylinders. I'm also not sure where I said, or insinuated, that more hp is always better. You just assumed that because I have a V8 car. And actually, drag racing is every bit as "hard core" as road racing.

I completely agree with you about the road racing stuff...a fully balanced car is key. That's also why I disagree with your argument against the ZR1; it was built/balanced to handle 600-700+hp, not 250. Totally different setups; you can't compare them. But people think that V8 cars can't handle, which is very wrong. The Corvette proves it (and if that isnt enough, check out the ACR Viper @ the Nurb video). There are also many people in the Mustang community that have very well handling road course setups; I hope one day to make my Tbird into a corner-carver. Also take a look at monstermiata.com - the stuff there is something I hope to do one day with my spare engine and a 1st gen Miata. And my whole point with the S2000 is that it makes NO torque. Torque is much more important than horsepower in many cases, and many import lovers like to ignore the torque number. As much as I do like, and respect, modern 4 cylinders, nothing will ever beat the sound of an American V8 at WOT, at least for me. Oh, and just 1 more thing...in 1987 and 1988, you could get a Ford Thunderbird Turbo Coupe with a 2.3L turbo 4 cylinder with 190hp (you could get them in other years too, but 87 and 88 were the most powerful). So lets not talk about how American cars always need V8s.

Last edited by kingcars, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 22:02.

Quote from sgt.flippy :

Very useful too.


Why defend a 5 liter car which puts out 250 HP, it's pretty pathetic tbh. Even for an old car.

Get a Prius, it's less rediculous.

You're an ignorant idiot. For starters, 250hp < 250rwhp. 250rwhp = ~290hp. Drivetrain loss. Don't forget the 300rwtq...which is about 340tq at the flywheel. Lets see a stock 4cyl that you love so much do that. S2000s are stock with, what, ~160tq (even less at the rear wheels)? And that's after how much technology advancement? Nobody (especially 4cyl nut swingers) ever seems to acknowledge torque numbers.

Second, I put a lot of time, money, and hard work (blood, sweat, tears, etc) into it. So did my father. You can't even respect that; you don't deserve to be in the hobby or consider yourself a car guy as far as I'm concerned.

Third, with that horsepower I can run with 350Zs, EVOs, and STIs for a fraction of the cost. Yeah, the car is set up to run mid 13s in the 1/4 mile...without AWD or loads of electronics. Considering it started out as a mid/high 16 sec car when I got it, I'd say it's doin pretty good.

Last edited by kingcars, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 04:14.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

To be fair you can get 250rwhp and 450rwtq from a 3L diesel. Shove that in your gas guzzling V8 and get smoked!
watch him take that as a serious dig or something! chillax people!

Gas guzzling? Guess you missed where I mentioned my gas mileage - 22/24 city, 26/28 hwy (gotten as high as 33mpg on full hwy trip). There are quite a few modern 4cyl cars that dont do that well on gas. Modern cars are ridiculously heavy for their size and kills gas mileage.

Also, what year is that diesel engine made? I bet it's not in the 80s. And yes, diesels do make crazy horsepower...I've raced a couple (stock/lightly modded) in my Tbird (with the old 225hp engine) and they have been very close.

You do seem to be forgetting that I'm referring to REAR WHEEL horsepower; much different from the "bhp" numbers that most people throw around. I have the dyno sheets to prove my numbers, and that was with wiped out main and rod bearings. "bhp" of my car is more around 280-290ish hp, accounting for drivetrain loss.

BTW....hope your little 4cyl cars have fun keeping up with this:

http://smg.photobucket.com/alb ... &current=PICT0001.flv Just a quick, short-shifted run to about ~85mph with the throttle not even opening all the way (new carb installed, havent adjusted the throttle cable yet).

EDIT:

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

I'm not having a dig against american cars, well actually I am. They need to catch up to the times and drop the "no replacement for displacement", because obviously there is! And it's called 4 valve heads, for a start! Most V8's in America still use 2 valves per cylinder!!

Mustangs have been running 3 and 4 valve V8s for quite a few years now...i think you're the one that needs to catch up to the times. :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nSenMmqKh4

Hey look, an old fashioned pushrod V8 still gettin the job done for a fraction of the price. Whoda thunk?

And before we get into a "straight line vs road course" discussion...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6mEirkQN8o

Last edited by kingcars, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 03:45.

Quote from Scrabby :

Why does everybody think that V8 have 9999999hp's?

Especially stock V8s from the 80s! They were horrible!

The 225hp 1988 5.0 Mustang walked all over the Corvette of the same era...

Doesn't matter though...the same 5.0 engine with a few mods now has my car ready to put down 250rwhp/310rwtq...cant wait to hit the dyno again.

Quote from jamesc :

5.0 V8 and 155 hp? Is this a type error? A regular 2.0 4 cil has the same hp.

Keep reading the post...it's making a lot more than that now. But yes, back in the 80s when all the emissions regulations were really coming into play, companies were having a hard time making horsepower. The 5.0 Mustang of the same year was the first car to really become "fast" again, putting out 225hp and running mid/low 14 1/4 mile times stock for a cheap price. Since Ford couldn't have the Tbird outmuscling the Mustang, they choked the engine up with a horrible cam, restrictive heads and intake, and a different computer, putting it down to 155hp. Look back at horsepower ratings in the 70s and 80s...it was normal. Heck, there are 400ci+ big blocks at times only putting out ~175hp. It was a completely different time when those were built...you simply can't compare them to the stuff we have today, after 15-20 years of technology advancement.

And a funny thing to note to all the 4cyl/import lovers out there...with a stock 225hp Mustang 5.0 and an automatic, my Tbird got 22-24mpg city and 28-30mpg hwy; the best ever was a 3 hour highway trip where it got an amazing 33mpg...yes, we're talking about an old american V8 here.

Last edited by kingcars, Mon 15 Jun 2009, 16:12.

Well-built automatic transmissions will beat manuals on a dragstrip, especially when it comes to consistency. But for pure fun on a street car, nothing beats a manual. Some would prefer a manual to be in a weekend driver, though, not a daily driver (due to driving in traffic).

My car: 1988 Thunderbird 5.0 Sport

Started out life with stock 155hp 5.0 V8/automatic/2.73 rear gear and being driven by a grandma (literally). Then my parents bought it and it became my first car. Since then, my dad and I have swapped in a 5 speed manual, put true dual exhaust on it, new wheels/tires, 2002 Mustang GT front springs, 3.27 rear gear, and we just recently built a 306 for it that got the car to put down 240rwhp/300rwtq on the chassis dyno (~280hp/340tq at the flywheel). Unfortunately, the oil pressure took a nosedive and wiped out the main and rod bearings, costing me a few hp on the dyno, so I'm taking it back there when we get it back together...expecting 255rwhp with the extra couple of bolt-ons I'm getting for it while it's apart. Anyways, some pics and video:

Vids:
http://smg.photobucket.com/alb ... mp;current=idleandrev.flv

http://smg.photobucket.com/alb ... iew&current=0to60.flv
^Yes I know my shifting is slow...hadn't driven the car in a few months so I was rusty. I'm gonna be in the same boat again when it's back together haha. And sorry for the Aerosmith CD somewhat hindering the awesome exhaust note.

Pics are attached

I need some help guys...i have a DFP and just got LFS S2 today. However, I'm only getting 180 degrees of rotation in the game. My DFP is set to turn 540 degrees and so is the ingame control setting, but when I drive a car, it goes from lock to lock in just 180 degrees of my wheel axis. I've tried several cars and they all do this (street and race cars). Anybody know how to fix it?

NVM I got it...had to recalibrate the axis ingame. Sorry for the n00b post.

Last edited by kingcars, Wed 10 Jun 2009, 18:48.