Quote from BAMBO :

Mate, it's pointless arguing with you since you don't know basic stuff about how an engine works. I suggest you do a bit of studying before making incorrect assumptions.

You're the one trying to say things like:

"But if a 4cyl had 306ci..."

and

"If V8 torque curves are so great, what about F1 cars?"

Anyways, time for work...can't wait to see the stupid crap that ensues here over the next 7 hours.

Quote from BAMBO :

No it isn't as you can read above. Because if it would be an advatage of a V8 then how come F1 engines have such a fluid torque band? How come 4-6 cylinders truck engines have such a wide torque band?

F1 cars use V8s...

http://www.f1technical.net/articles/4

Quote :

At its maximum pace the current V8 engines consume around 60 litres of petrol for 100km of racing.

...

At the moment, all f1 engines can produce around 720 hp with 8 cilinders in a 90 degree V-angle.

ROFL @ spelling typo^

And I'm the stupid one? hahahaha

Also, most top of the line trucks use V8s (Nissan Titan, Ford F series, etc). 4 and 6 cylinders are options, though. I would assume that they're specifically designed and tuned for torque. We're talking about general applications here, though, not specific instances. And as I said before, straight 6s are also great for torque.

Last edited by kingcars, Sat 20 Jun 2009, 20:08.

Quote from ajp71 :

You're car is producing more than twice the power at the wheels so if efficency is the same drivetrain losses are going to be twice as great.

Exactly. Drivetrain loss becomes greater with the more hp you put out. Putting out 1000hp at the crank only translates to ~850 at the wheels.

Quote from BAMBO :

Well your torque band comes mostly from your bore&stroke, amongst other things. So your V8 has quite a wide torque band for being an undersquare (longstroke) engine unlike your normal 4 cylinder which is oversquare(shortstroke).

Well then there you have it - that's an advantage of a V8. That's part of the argument.

Quote from BAMBO :

Well it isn't very fair to compare two engines of different sizes, now is it? Sure a 4 cylinder the size of your V8 would never rev to 6000 rpms but since you're only comparing torque band, I'm quite sure it would be better.

This is a 4cyl vs 8cyl discussion, size difference is part of the argument....we cant go changing around their common properties. V8s often dont come with forced induction, while most performance 4cyls do.

Quote from Shotglass :

anyone who would swap the engine of an rx7 with anything other than a larger wankel shouldnt be allowed near cars with a spanner

I wouldnt go that far, but I wouldn't do an LSx swap in an RX7 if it were my car. The rotary is what makes those cars different and interesting, albeit sometimes unreliable and high maintenance. But it is a popular swap, whether we like it or not.

Quote from BAMBO :

Here's the 911 Turbo's: http://www.hennesseyperformanc ... nce/images/Pic4.php?id=71

If you ask me, it looks better then yours

Hahahahaha I was about to be like "you CANT be serious...." Also, I thought 911s had straight 6 cylinders, not 4...straight 6s are great for torque also.

Quote from BAMBO :

Anyway, moving along from idiotic comparisons, you're pretty much trying to say that a 4 cylinder engine won't have the same torque as your 306 V8. Well I can more then guarantee you that a 4 cylinder the size of your 306 will produce more Nm and will have a better torque band.

Say what now?

Quote from AjRose :

Good god. This could go on forever... At least It will keep them occupied. (And out of other parts of the forum LOL.)

It's fun though

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

"AWD is the easy way out"

That doesnt mean one is better or worse...

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Many people will also agree with me that there's nothing like the noise of a V10 Lambo.

Hence why I said it's subjective. You're not good at reading, are you?

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

As for reliability, people don't do engine swaps for reliability do they? Start talking sense, something again you seem to lack!

Actually, reliability is one of the MAIN reasons people put LSx engines in RX7s...you need to start learning about the stuff youre talking about.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

My Dad had a 1.6 16v Vauxhall Astra which had some 135,000 miles on the clock, original engine, just regularly serviced. The oil pressure light came on, although it turned out it was a fault sensor. Nothing on it went wrong and he wasn't exactly the worlds most gentle driver.

Yeah thats awesome.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

I'd love to see that Saab thing.

I'll try to find it online...I walked by it a hundred times while they had one in the local mall.

EDIT: Here you go http://consumerguideauto.howst ... s.com/2005-saab-9-3-1.htm

Quote :

Among automatic-transmission test cars, Linear sedans averaged 21.8-23.5 mpg, Arc convertible 23.9 mpg.

And they use premium fuel, yuck.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

And no, because Evo's and STIs are highly tuned, turbocharged 2l kicking out close to 150bhp/l, of course they're going to use petrol. Use some common.

Oh, but that doesn't count for when using 8 cylinders. :rolleyes: It's a two-way street, my friend.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

You were the one that implied more things to go wrong. So how about "no u"

The more they pack into cars, the more stuff that CAN break. That's common sense. Doesn't mean it WILL break. Two very different things.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

As for the fenders, I lol'd. Have you seen the build quality of most American cars? EG the Corvette where you can push the rear panel in, awesome that is!

Thats just 1 example of an American car...one thats built to be very light weight. Pretty much every single import here has plastic body panels that bend with the slightest touch, along with a good number of new domestic vehicles unfortunately. I was just referring to how I prefer my Tbird's all steel body; an old school trait that I love.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Sorry are you questioning disreputable facts published in an independent book?

I'm sure its a great book, but seriously, you can't base everything you know on ONE book. Get out into the real world some! I've seen all types of cars...4s, 6s, 8s, everything from a Geo Metro with a honda motor swap running low 8s in the 1/8th mile to highly modded Tbirds (body style like mine) running 7.7 @ 180mph in the 1/4 mile. And actually, I'll be honest, some of the 4cyl cars are the most fun to watch at the track...the way they're kinda slow off the line then just take off like ROCKETS after about 1/3rd of the track, and get insane trap speeds.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Cheaper indeed it may be, but a 3L 6 cyl NA BMW pumps out 258bhp..2L Vtec in the S2000 also pumps out something like 235 from it's NA setup..

How much torque does that S2000 motor make again?

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

In your opinion.

Um no...it's fact. Only V8s have all of the good traits of V8s. Common sense?

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Of course I am, engines don't produce max power at the redline, especially, if so you keep bleating on about, if tuned for torque.

Find me a car that makes full power without the throttle opening 100%, then we can talk. Also, the engine still makes great power near redline, and when shifting at that point, it puts the car in full power band for the next gear. We'll find out for sure next time she sees the track.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

As I said before, if you give me a "budget" and a workshop, I'll give it a bash.

That would be fun haha.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Because as I said anyone can go fast in a straight line.

Don't say that until you've done it yourself.

Last edited by kingcars, Sat 20 Jun 2009, 19:05.

Quote from ajp71 :

Highly unlikely, just a typical inflated rolling road reading to please the Max Power lot.

Wow, people are stuuuuuuuupid in here. Here are my dyno sheet readings, with low oil pressure and wiped out main/rod bearings:

http://img.photobucket.com/alb ... ine%20Project/240rwhp.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/alb ... ine%20Project/300rwtq.jpg

With fresh bearings in good shape (a lot less resistance in the engine) and good oil pressure, lets say it adds 5rwhp to give me 245rwhp. Account for 15% drivetrain loss, and you get 281.75. Now lets go back and look at what I said:

Quote from kingcars :

"bhp" of my car is more around 280-290ish hp, accounting for drivetrain loss.

Quote from kingcars :

For starters, 250hp < 250rwhp. 250rwhp = ~290hp. Drivetrain loss.

So what were you saying about inflated readings?

On another note, check out the torque curve on the 300rwtq run...never drops below 250rwtq, even at 1600rpm.

Last edited by kingcars, Sat 20 Jun 2009, 18:16.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Which is again a typical American viewpoint.

"FWD/AWD is for people who can't drive, RWD is better"

Where did I say RWD is better? I said that RWD requires more skill to get the speed out of it. You're putting words in my mouth.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

So it's all about winning is it? Sports/supercars are about passion, workmanship, fun, noise, and attracting a crowd. And the simple fact of the matter is the Lambo is nice to look at, makes a better noise, is built MUCH better, would pull a bigger crowd, and I'd bet it'd be more reliable too, but that doesn't exactly matter.

Better noise is subjective. Nothing makes a better sound than an American V8, imo, and I know many people that will agree with me. Lambos sound awesome, dont get me wrong, but it's not the same. And when we're talking about performance/price, yes it's all about winning. You're changing the subject to suit your argument. As far as reliability, the LSx series engines are some of the most reliable engines out there; they've gotten many awards. Why do you think guys swap them into everything from Miatas to RX7s? Once again, your ignorance is shining.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Don't you tend to drive your cars everywhere? It's not like you drive it to the shop and give it a break on the way home, so pick it up and put it in your back pocket to give it's tyres a break, do you? Cars don't magically explode if you race them. That's what a redline is for.. and is 22-28mpg supposed to be good??

Not every car is a daily driver, especially ones regularly raced. Many are trailered to the track...stop being ignorant. And yes, for a 20 year old 155,000 mile V8 without a rebuild, I'd say that's pretty impressive mileage (got 25mpg during my trips to the track, including racing)...I saw a window sticker for a brand new 2.0L Saab that only said like 19-24mpg; thats not uncommon. STIs and EVOs arent known for fuel economy either...

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

I think you'll find Honda's technology filled (and so according to you, automatically unreliable) engines are some of the most, if not the most reliable engines in production today. And most of them punch power far above their class, yet still return 35+ MPG and will last just as long, even with poor maintenance..

Once again, putting words in my mouth. I said nothing about technology automatically making things unreliabe; it just adds more things that can go wrong. STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH AND REPLY TO WHAT IM ACTUALLY SAYING. My mom has a 2004 Accord 4cyl...I know how nice, quiet, reliable, and economical they can be and have also seen how annoying the technology breakage can be. My Tbird's 20 year old radio lasted longer than the CD player did in her car, and the Tbird's engine has had less problems too. And it's nowhere near as fun to drive as my Tbird is. The tbird's fenders also dont dent if you lean on them.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

It just so happens I got one of those "big book of car" things.... It's called "The Atlas of Automobiles"

Oh, so a book makes you the all knowing expert now? Dang, guess I didn't get that memo...

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

I can't help but notice the specific output of 80% of the American cars are dreadful when compared to equivalent and comparable engines from European/Japanese cars, and if even you deny that, then you're being very arrogant and can't see flaws in your own brands... Because not everything is perfect, even many European cars.

Looking at stock numbers, you are right in some cases, though I would quickly point you to how many of those 4cyls need forced induction to get comparable numbers. However, once you get into modding these engines, you'll quickly find that it's much cheaper to get horsepower out of an American V8.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Did I said YOU needed it? No, I didn't.

I said why would anyone in their right mind, apart from patriots (because they seem to lack basic common sense) choose a V8 that produces twice the CO2 output, and uses twice as much fuel, but produces similar power and torque to that of a 3L 6cyl, for example.

You've obviously never ridden in a true V8 car in the way that one should be. And you've gotta be kidding if you think the torque numbers are comparable. Also, when getting into high horsepower, small engines start having reliability issues. I know guys with 9 second (V8) daily drivers (some with those "unreliable" LSx engines I mentioned earlier); thats extremely uncommon with 4cyls. Also, I'll say it again...V8s are generally much cheaper to make fast. Even back when my Tbird was bone stock...with a horrific 155hp, it still had 265ftlbs of torque. Compared to my mom's 165hp Accord, it was still more fun to drive because of the torque. As much as you'd like to think that 6s and 4s have all the good things of V8s plus more, you're wrong.

Also, I'd love to see a 4cyl with comparable hp to my 306 put out a torque curve like this: http://img.photobucket.com/alb ... ine%20Project/300rwtq.jpg Once again, it did that with low oil pressure and wiped out main and rod bearings.

Never drops below 250rwtq from 1650rpm all the way to 4500rpm (where I accidentally let off the gas...engine makes more power to 5k-5500). It's not all about PEAK horsepower and torque, it's more about the average across the board. In most cases, V8s win that battle with ease. It most cases, like yours, people only look at the advertised peak power/torque. However, thats only a small piece of the whole story. By the time your little 4cyl is up to 7500rpm for peak power, I'm already a dot on the horizon.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

It was going as fast as it could go.

Without the throttle opening all the way and not even taking it to redline? You, sir, are sounding more dumb every second.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

And that has what to do with anything?

You're obviously not reading the quotes I'm replying to. You said any moron can go fast in a straight line. So, if thats true and you're so awesome, lets see you build a 9 second 4cyl YOURSELF on a BUDGET, as many V8 guys (aka "morons") have done. Good luck.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

Why did you feel the need to resurrect some bullshit argument you had with someone.

Why do you feel the need reading a thread you don't like, then replying to it?

Last edited by kingcars, Sat 20 Jun 2009, 18:27.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

And you think I can be arsed to do all this again and win? Make another thread, if you so wish. This is not the place.

Good point, I agree. Here we go:

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=58665

Use this thread to bring up any rivalry arguments (auto vs manual, V8 vs 4cyl, F1 vs NASCAR, EVO vs STI whatever), so we don't clutter up any other threads. I'll start off with a discussion me and S14Drift have been goin on about:

Quote from kingcars :

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

How could I guess you'd bring up the ZR1 round the Nurburgring. That old chestnut. :rolleyes:


Ok, yes, you have a car that is very quick around the Nurburgring.. normally compared to the GTR or something... but what you're not so happy to mention is that if you give it to any normal enthusiast, they'd be faster in sometime less... archaic.. IE anyone that's not a professional racing driver would be quicker in something easier and more I mean not saying it's a BAD car, but leaf springs? Again, modernize!

Most RWD cars require more skill than AWD cars...that's just the nature of the beast. Sure, if you want the easy way out, go AWD. And if the ZR1 is so "archaic" as you say, what does that say about the slower, technology-stuffed GTR? Technology does NOT always mean superiority, no matter how much you argue.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Even the Z06 you posted uses 2 valves per cylinder! Just like most American engines.

Yet it still beats "high tech" Lambos with ease for a fraction of the price. Next!

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

The 4cyl cars we have get's us reliably, cheaply, cleanly and economically from A-B in relative, so mock all you like. But we have better technology, it's just the way it is..

I'll say it again...technology does not directly equate to superiority. In many cases, it just adds more stuff that can break. My Tbird's original engine had 155,000 miles on it and I took it EVERYWHERE, beat the snot out of it at the track (including 2 hour drives to the 1/4 mile, racing it, then driving it 2 hours home), and drove it 300 miles a week at times. It never left me stranded and always got 22-28mpg.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

As for economy, well, I don't drive cars, I just ride bikes, so I can only comment on my families cars..

Wow that explains A LOT. You ride bikes, yet you seem to think you're the #1 authority on technologically advanced cars.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

My Dad (only person I ever really go in the car with) had a 2.2 Vectra.. It was quick..certainly quick enough without constantly wishing you had more power.. (150bhp or so.. most American cars with 3.5L engines kick out that amount of power! :jawdrop yet he managed to AVERAGE (not highway, AVERAGE) 38.6mpg. On the motorway, at around 65-75mph, it would be showing 50mpg on the trip computer.. make of that what you will.

Seriously? You need to do some research...American cars were puttin out 150+hp with small 2.3L Turbos back in the mid 80s. That's just 1 example...maybe one day you'll open your eyes and find the rest for yourself.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Besides who NEEDS a V8 kicking out 2## bhp when you can get a 2.5 or 3L petrol that does the same? But maybe that's just me?

Who said I needed it? Who NEEDS a 400hp 4cyl? Who NEEDS a 350hp 6cyl? We do it cause of fun. Also, I'd love to see you put out the power my car is for the same budget with a 4 cylinder. Turbo kits alone (for comparable hp numbers) are more than what my whole engine build cost, and I could have even done my build for much cheaper than I did (I took lots of precautions). Not to mention that even if I had a 4cyl or 6cyl with the same, or more power, it'd still be nowhere near as fun for me; the torque and sound of a V8 is where it's at.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Your video... impressive.. but doesn't sound like short shifting or anything less than full throttle to me..

The gas pedal was to the floor, but when dad installed the new carb by himself, he didn't get to adjust the throttle cable. We checked it a few weeks ago and the throttle cable is not fully opening the carb. Also, in the video, dad was shifting at ~5500rpm. That 385ci V8 is good for 6000-6500 easy. We've had it up to/a little over 6k a few times...it's awesome.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Besides, my motto is "any moron can go fast in a straight line. The true moron is the one that crashed into a tree at the next corner!"

I'd love to see you try handling a 9 second car down a dragstrip, much less building it yourself in the first place.

*DING DING DING* fight!

Last edited by kingcars, Sun 21 Jun 2009, 08:06.

Sorry, I'm gonna go offtopic one last time. Idk how I missed this post...

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

How could I guess you'd bring up the ZR1 round the Nurburgring. That old chestnut. :rolleyes:


Ok, yes, you have a car that is very quick around the Nurburgring.. normally compared to the GTR or something... but what you're not so happy to mention is that if you give it to any normal enthusiast, they'd be faster in sometime less... archaic.. IE anyone that's not a professional racing driver would be quicker in something easier and more I mean not saying it's a BAD car, but leaf springs? Again, modernize!

Most RWD cars require more skill than AWD cars...that's just the nature of the beast. Sure, if you want the easy way out, go AWD. And if the ZR1 is so "archaic" as you say, what does that say about the slower, technology-stuffed GTR? Technology does NOT always mean superiority, no matter how much you argue.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Even the Z06 you posted uses 2 valves per cylinder! Just like most American engines.

Yet it still beats "high tech" Lambos with ease for a fraction of the price. Next!

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

The 4cyl cars we have get's us reliably, cheaply, cleanly and economically from A-B in relative, so mock all you like. But we have better technology, it's just the way it is..

I'll say it again...technology does not directly equate to superiority. In many cases, it just adds more stuff that can break. My Tbird's original engine had 155,000 miles on it and I took it EVERYWHERE, beat the snot out of it at the track (including 2 hour drives to the 1/4 mile, racing it, then driving it 2 hours home), and drove it 300 miles a week at times. It never left me stranded and always got 22-28mpg.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

As for economy, well, I don't drive cars, I just ride bikes, so I can only comment on my families cars..

Wow that explains A LOT. You ride bikes, yet you seem to think you're the #1 authority on technologically advanced cars.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

My Dad (only person I ever really go in the car with) had a 2.2 Vectra.. It was quick..certainly quick enough without constantly wishing you had more power.. (150bhp or so.. most American cars with 3.5L engines kick out that amount of power! :jawdrop yet he managed to AVERAGE (not highway, AVERAGE) 38.6mpg. On the motorway, at around 65-75mph, it would be showing 50mpg on the trip computer.. make of that what you will.

Seriously? You need to do some research...American cars were puttin out 150+hp with small 2.3L Turbos back in the mid 80s. That's just 1 example...maybe one day you'll open your eyes and find the rest for yourself.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Besides who NEEDS a V8 kicking out 2## bhp when you can get a 2.5 or 3L petrol that does the same? But maybe that's just me?

Who said I needed it? Who NEEDS a 400hp 4cyl? Who NEEDS a 350hp 6cyl? We do it cause of fun. Also, I'd love to see you put out the power my car is for the same budget with a 4 cylinder. Turbo kits alone (for comparable hp numbers) are more than what my whole engine build cost, and I could have even done my build for much cheaper than I did (I took lots of precautions). Not to mention that even if I had a 4cyl or 6cyl with the same, or more power, it'd still be nowhere near as fun for me; the torque and sound of a V8 is where it's at.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Your video... impressive.. but doesn't sound like short shifting or anything less than full throttle to me..

The gas pedal was to the floor, but when dad installed the new carb by himself, he didn't get to adjust the throttle cable. We checked it a few weeks ago and the throttle cable is not fully opening the carb. Also, in the video, dad was shifting at ~5500rpm. That 385ci V8 is good for 6000-6500 easy. We've had it up to/a little over 6k a few times...it's awesome.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Besides, my motto is "any moron can go fast in a straight line. The true moron is the one that crashed into a tree at the next corner!"

I'd love to see you try handling a 9 second car down a dragstrip, much less building it yourself in the first place.



Ok, resume on-topicness. BTW, I really like that VX220. *drool*

Agreed, a cheap DFP or DFGT will serve you just fine.

Just got my G25 today, and wow I'm impressed. After having a Driving Force Pro for the past 4-5 years, I couldn't believe how easy it is to turn the wheel haha. It's also MUCH more quiet. The pedals are extremely sturdy, but not the greatest grip on a hardwood floor; right now I have a shoe between the pedals and the wall to keep them planted. Other than that, everything is wonderful. The shifter does have the click, but doesn't have that loose sloppy feeling that some have reported; theres a fair amount of resistance. For now I'll be using the paddle shifts while racing online, but I've already been practicing heel-toe a lot along with the 6 speed H shifter. Quite cool once you get it right. So far so good.

Quote from buntatofu86 :

Have you ever seen the D1 Mustang driven by Ken Gushi?

Can't say I have...but I did see him on that competition show they had on SpeedTV a year or two ago.

Quote from masternick :

idk, ive been in some nice muscle cars befor and was nothing compared to going sideways in the hills in a light modded S13 silvia, its fun going fast in a straight line, its more fun going fast around corners:P

Well if you were in the right muscle car with the right driver, it'd be sideways while going straight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJl__WfU5rE

Last edited by kingcars, Thu 18 Jun 2009, 17:56.

Quote from mrodgers :

My apologies. These guys must be right. I'm not your normal "american" who doesn't understand sarcasm as these guys gripe all the time about. I should have put that in [sarcasm][/sarcasm]tags. It wasn't a dig at you, it was a dig at these guys always comparing 70s and 80s V8 with 21 century 4 cylinders....

Sorry, it was a misunderstanding. I apologize. Saracasm is hard to detect via text.

Glad to see you're taking budget into consideration...people who think the hp numbers of my car and my dad's car are pathetic need to realize what kind of money it takes to even get to that kind of hp.

Last edited by kingcars, Thu 18 Jun 2009, 17:36.

Quote from Bawbag :

http://www.lfsforum.net/showth ... car+discussion&page=4

S14 in another heated discussion? Whoda thunk?

Quote from BigPeBe :

Heh maybe I went a bit wrong in there, but didn't really know a better way of getting on the subject.

I'm not really that experienced, I have done some work with engines and cars but not much. I wouldn't know how to build a powerful working V8, but I'm pretty aware of the Ford Pinto engines, there's one in my current car, not that powerful really but it has a bit of a grunt. They are so popular and there is so much knowledge floating around. Tho on some things I think I would have to rely on professional tuners to get it right, like cam timing or getting the right combination of valves/springs/rocker arms for the cam I would be using.
It's just a shame I can't get working on them currently because I don't have the money and time now. Maybe in few years...

I enjoy engines, 4-pots, straight-6s, V6s and V8. I love how they sound and they all have their own characteristics.
As Euro guy I'm just more familiar with 4-pots.

Saying 400bhp from big engine isn't special doesn't mean I wouldn't like owning one. I don't wanna mock the old American push rod V8 type of engines, I love them too. They have their own raw character, TBH I actually prefer them to the modern V8 engines. I like all the oldskool stuff.

I agree with you in just about every fashion. I love all engines. One project I'd love to do one day is a 2.3T Pinto...get it to like 300rwhp, quiet exhaust, hubcaps, and just scare the crap out of people at stop lights . Pull up next to ricers, make sure they hear the BOV, and picture the look on their faces . However, statements like "400bhp is nothing special" is just a bad comment to make; even for a V8 build, it's a lot of work to get a car to that much horsepower, and when it's your own money, things tend to quickly come into perspective; especially when you don't cut corners, which I found out quickly near the end of my 306 project. As my dad has always said, "You can go as fast as you'd like; how deep is your wallet?"

As for old school stuff, I also agree. There is *NOTHING* else quite like riding in torque monster muscle cars with sloppy suspensions, bare bones interiors, no ergonomics, no sound deadening, etc. As one of my friends said while riding in my dad's Chevelle, it's just like a roller coaster ride. Especially when well over 400ftlbs of torque slams you back in the seat!

Last edited by kingcars, Thu 18 Jun 2009, 17:25.

Quote from BigPeBe :

I hope that above post wasn't aimed at me, well at least not the a bit angry sounding parts. I wasn't trying to argue, or prove you wrong, I just enjoy talking about engines.

Well saying "400bhp from big N/A engine isn't that special" isn't a good way to stray away from an argument. Trust me...as I learned with my first engine build, there is so much stuff that goes into doing it than you could imagine. It's taken a lot of work just to build my extremely mild 250rwhp 306ci V8 (thats RWhp, NOT bhp...bhp is closer to 300ish). You need to make sure the combo is well matched (<--- thats where people tend to fail. Bigger isnt always better) and will meet your goals (hp/tq, rpm, power band etc), the fuel system and computer (unless it's carb'd..but that needs to be matched too) have to be enough for it, have the rotating assembly balanced, you need to decide on how much compression you want, what kind of pistons, check bearing clearances, check piston-to-valve clearance, degree the camshaft, torque all bolts down to the proper torque and in the proper order, make sure all gaskets seal, etc. And that's just scratching the surface.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Yeah, 400bhp, and about 437ci...

Wrong. Stop making assumptions. And I said OVER 400hp; keep it mind that it's a very cheap, budget build, and the heads are very restrictive for it right now...lets see a 4cyl do that on a tight budget. Good luck. I'd also like to see what you guys have yourselves that are apparently so awesomely fast, which must mean it has at LEAST 600hp from a 1.8L turbo engine. I'm using two cars that I have worked on and/or paid for; worked with dad on the Chevelle for 10 years, and I've done a ton of work to my Tbird for about 4 years now and paid for just about every penny. It's much different when youre talkin about your own money and cars as opposed to other peoples'. You can sit here and say "LOL 300-400hp, thats nothing special!" Oh really? Lets see you do it. I honestly think that none have you have ANY idea what all goes into building an engine, especially if you think our power numbers are "nothing special."

http://smg.photobucket.com/alb ... ngine%20Project/?start=80
There's the album for my 306 build, and it does no justice to all the work, time, research, and money that went into it. But take a look through...it covers about 15-16 months.

Also, engines like the LSx series are completely redesigned; Ford's 4.6 is nothing like a 30 year old V8, and they'll be making it into a 5.0 for the 2011 Mustang iirc. I don't know what kind of "research" you've been doing, but it fails miserably. And besides, there are no engines out right now that AREN'T "updated" versions of what we've had for decades...isn't that called progression?

Last edited by kingcars, Thu 18 Jun 2009, 15:23.

Quote from mrodgers :

I don't get your point. Why wouldn't you compare an 80s V8 to 4 cylinder technology that is 30 years newer?

Thanks for answering your own question. And please, read my whole post. Specifically this part:

Quote from kingcars :

See that's the problem - late 80s. And the Chevy 305 was a horrible engine, though my dad's 85 Trans Am has a 305 (205hp stock) so I don't know what they did to the Camaro's engine. But after the oil crisis in the early 70s that killed the muscle cars, it took the US a little over 15 years to finally start making horsepower again. It wasn't because V8s are bad, we simply didn't have the technology to meet economic standards AND make horsepower at the same time. I really hate when people are ignorant and try pointing out 70s-80s V8s as examples of why V8s are bad, without recognizing the situation going on at that time. It wasn't until cars like the Grand National and 5.0 Mustang that American cars finally started going fast off the showroom floor again. It's simply ignorant to use cars from that era as a point of argument.

Wanna see how real V8 cars make horsepower?

http://img.photobucket.com/alb ... rs/NewChevellePics007.jpg

V8s don't need fancy electronics or forced induction to go fast. That's over 400hp sittin there in that pic.

Quote from masternick :

1/4 mile isnt everything, any car with decent power can do a good 1/4 mile, turning corners is a different story:P tbh thats why i like Euro and Japanese cars more then US cars

Please come back after you've read the whole conversation at hand.

Last edited by kingcars, Thu 18 Jun 2009, 07:25.

Quote from Byku :

You are all not car enthusiast . You should love any kind of engine! V8, I4, it doesn't matter, they both are beautifull. I love small Japanese coupes with high reving engine, and i love those old muscles with huge V8, and suspension characteristic of a boat. They both give different feeling, but they both are beautifull! GUY! CHILL OUT! Let's make love not war!

QFT.

Quote from DTrott :

This.

The whole American bashing is silly. Although I do admit I have done it before on other forums (but only ever for my own personal enjoyment at annoying people online). Normally it revolved around the 1988 5.0L V8 Camaro putting out only 170hp.

See that's the problem - late 80s. And the Chevy 305 was a horrible engine, though my dad's 85 Trans Am has a 305 (205hp stock) so I don't know what they did to the Camaro's engine. But after the oil crisis in the early 70s that killed the muscle cars, it took the US a little over 15 years to finally start making horsepower again. It wasn't because V8s are bad, we simply didn't have the technology to meet economic standards AND make horsepower at the same time. I really hate when people are ignorant and try pointing out 70s-80s V8s as examples of why V8s are bad, without recognizing the situation going on at that time. It wasn't until cars like the Grand National and 5.0 Mustang that American cars finally started going fast off the showroom floor again. It's simply ignorant to use cars from that era as a point of argument.

I remember not long ago, I had people from a Civic forum talking trash about my car. The funny thing is, my car, which was bought for $1500, ran a 14.6 @ 94.7 mph in the 1/4 mile after just $400 in mods (H/C/I and rear gears). Looking through that same Civic forum, many guys were doing full engine swaps just to get their cars into the 16s. What a joke. Like I said, I really love the idea of fast 4 cylinders - I've enjoyed videos on youtube of 380hp turbo Miatas laying waste to cars and crazy built early 90s Civics doing the same. It's the ignorance of many of a lot of the crowd that bothers me; I'm sure there's plenty of that in the V8 crowd too. I wish people could just like all makes and models.

In my driveway right now sit:

1966 Chevelle - ~425hp 385ci V8
1988 Thunderbird - ~300hp 306ci V8
2004 Accord - ~165hp 4cyl
1991 Camry - ~100hp 4cyl
1985 Trans Am - 205hp 305ci V8

A diverse group of cars, all of which do great at the purpose they serve. No manufacterer bias in this household.

Quote from buntatofu86 :

And by the way, you're right about American cars not always being V8. My friends Buick, for example, is one hell of a 6 cylinder turbo!

Grand National? Need pics.