I'm not sure there that much "competition". The games appeal to different groups of players. Based on the online stats, LFS has a fairly large number of online players. The ISI games pretty much split up the online players into many small groups.

I would say that most of the simmers from 1999 that played Grand Prix Legends, Nascar Racing 2003 (on road tracks) and it's mods, EA's F1C 99-02 and it's mods, have moved onto the ISI based games available today. Most of the mods and tracks from the previous games are available on rFactor now. This group is mostly interested simulations of real cars and tracks.

The early versions of LFS had questionable physics, and most of the cars were slow, something that wouldn't appeal to the older generation of simmers. LFS has since improved, good physics and faster cars, but it only includes a few real cars and no real tracks, so it continues to be a mostly separte group of players.

There are some "crossover" players, and I play ISI games, LFS, arcade racing games and non racing games, although not that much online. Too many games, not enough time.

In the few drifting contests I've seen on TV, it's the fastest car through the track that wins. From what I can tell, the judges only ensure that the competing cars are drifting. As times goes on, the power in the drift cars is increasing, the top class cars are 500+hp now.

update - There is judging about the lines the cars use (suppose to get close to the outside of the course), and GPS sensors monitor speed and drift angle.

Similar to drag racing, each drift run is fairly short, especially compared to what is done in games.

Nascar has a following in the USA, in spite of the fact that all but 3 of the tracks in the series are ovals, and the cars are basically spec cars with the names Chevy, Ford, Dodge, and Toyota logo'ed onto the cars.

The USA has a relatively high number of participants at the club racing level and just fun runs on track days, but there is relatively little interest in viewing Formula 1, Indy Racing League, or Champ cars among the general population.

Last edited by JeffR, Sun, 18 Nov 2007 11:04.

Quote from yoyoML :

Porsche Unleashed is still the best NFS, no doubt. I fired it up yesterday and gosh running through Auvergne is a great experience.

Especially if you take the middle route through all the narrow passages:

n5avgt1.wmv

Personally, I liked the more colorful graphics in NFS4 - High Stakes better, in spite of the more arcadish physics.

n4kpcl.wmv

Quote from marzman :

Cars with 400 HP still slow down when you take a corner.

That's a big complaint of mine and others in regards to the demo. The promise is that the real game, with the assists off won't do this. However NFS6 - Hot Pursuit 2, had the very same annoying issue, excessive slowing down of cars when cornering. I'm hoping that they don't repeat the same mistake.

It's obviously a deliberate choice by the game designers. In Carbon, if a muscle car oversteers, it gets slowed down in normal race mode, but the slow down doesn't occur at all when running in drift mode. In fact, on the other rediculous extreme, the Viper drifts at 200mph in the start of a particular downhill canyon drift with some very large radius turns.

Quote from mrodgers :

You feel the wheel being forced to turn when hitting large bumps when you are in a turn

This depends on the steering geometry. The goal is to reduce or eliminate this effect. In the case of Formula 1 race cars, at high speeds with high downforce, any road surface feedback into the steering wheel could be enough to jerk the wheel right out of the drivers hands.

Personally, I've been playing racing games since 1999, I'm older now, and I've suffered from a bit of burn-out, so I don't love any game (racing or otherwise) right now.

I still play LFS, especially after each new release.

Regarding the reality of the physics, it's really difficult to tell how accurate any game really is. In real life different types of tires behave differently. Corvette Z06 and Viper owners complain about the all or nothing grip of the OEM run flat tires that come on the car. Viper listened and switched to the non-run flat Michelin Pilot Sport 2's which don't have this problem. Luckily for the Z06 owners, the Z06 wheels exactly meet the specs for these PS2 tires.

Expand this to a variety of cars and it's difficult to get them all accurate. As posted in another thread, I'm not sure if there's enough PC power to have such an accurate simulation that you can just feed in parameters for a car and have it come out acccurate. Then there's the fact that LFS cars are mostly fictional, so there's no way to compare these to a real counter part.

Still, LFS does have a feel all of it's own and that's why I like LFS.

I didn't mean to imply there would be any permanent effect in online play, just a few days hit if there are a significant number of NFS fans, although Pro-Streets demo isn't that well done. Obviously it's not a competing product, and won't affect sales of LFS. I was truly curious how many "closet" arcade racers there are here. One thing going for the NFS series is the graphics and sounds. The physics may not be realistic, but my analogy to this is first person shooters, which aren't realistic. The game that most impressed me was the original Tomb Raider and there wasn't a lot of reality in this game.

I think a few here already know I've played the NFS series since NFS2, and will end up buying Pro Street, inspite of the not so hot demo. Recently I haven't spent much time online with any one game. With so many games out there I'm having more fun with casual offline hot lapping with a variety of games.

Last edited by JeffR, Wed, 7 Nov 2007 06:17.

I wonder if the number of LFS players online will take a hit when Need For Speed - Pro Street is released.

What surprises me is the apparent interest in the LX8, yet no plans to include it in LFS. Why not give the players what they want?

Quote from DragonCommando :

If it was air movement under the pistons that provided engine braking it would blow out anything that held in that pressure change

The key here is that it's air movement, not air pressure. Changes in pressure you get back, moving the air around corners (which is why this is engine dependent) is what's consuming most of the energy in the crankcase. Again, pro stock drag bikes and pro stock drag cars utilize crank case vacuum pumps. The bikes get more of a relative benefit because of the high rpms (13,000). There are other reasons for using vacuum pumps on crankcases for drag vehicles, but more power is one of the reasons for using them.

Quote :

What vehicle where you driving

Several cars with V8's and fuel injection. The last time I did this was on 1997 Trans-Am WS6 about 5 years ago.

Quote from DasBoeseC :

.....and I doubt that the Z06 would be a real match for the CSR260 in track-performance as long as the track doesn't consist of many comparably long straights

Cornering grip for both cars is limited to how sticky the tires are. The Caterham, being lighter, can run stickier tires than the Z06. The slicks for the Caterham put it around 1.4 to 1.5 g's of conering, while the Z06 with slicks will be around 1.3gs. Although the Caterham has a better power to weight ratio, it's relatively high drag coefficent (.7 verus the Z06's .34), means the Z06 accelerates faster around 80mph or so.

The Caterham is faster on autocross type tracks, but the higher speeds at most racing tracks is enough that the Z06's faster acceleration above 80mph makes up for the Caterham's better handling. Willow Springs (California) longest straight is only about 1/4 mile, but the slowest turn is 60mph and the fastest about 120mph. The Z06 wins on this track, but not by much.

Viper ?

viper1.wmv

viper2.wmv

Quote from DragonCommando :

my engine only has one piston

In that case, you're not going to get a lot of engine braking, since compression and expansion of air under the single piston will not involve a lot of energy consumption.

A flat engine layout isn't going to have a lot of engine braking effects either. My statements about energy consumption under the piston were in reference to engines like an inline 4 or 6, or a V2, V4, V6, or V8 type engine.

My experiements with varying the throttle input with the engine shut off were done on cars with V8 engines.

Quote from DragonCommando :

Get a manual gearbox car with electronic fuel injection and cut fuel in third gear, then downshift to second with the throttle wide open ... it won't chug down like it would with the throttle closed.

I've done exactly this, and engine braking effect is virtually the same whether the throttle is open or closed. As previously posted, it's the movement of air under the pistons that accounts for most of the engine braking at higher rpms. Both pro stock motorcycles and cars use crankcase vacuum pumps.

Last edited by JeffR, Sun, 28 Oct 2007 07:38.

Thanks for the link. Looked like there were exhaust pipes on both sides of the car so it would be an LX8. Good find. I wasn't aware that anyone had made any other videos of the LX8 in action.

Still it would be nice for LFS to update it's cars to somewhat resemble their real world counter parts. Since the Caterham is the most popular LX like car, it would be my preference to choose the three common values for power: 140hp, 200hp, 260hp. If LFS can include a F1 race car in a class of it's own, why not update the LX's?

Should LFS be a game of the past or the present?

Quote :

Large trucks use a device called an engine brake to increase the effectiveness of engine braking.

It's called a jake brake. What it does is open a seperate valve in the cylinder while a piston is still close to top dead center, just after the compression cycle. This allows the compressed air to escape out of the cylinder instead of pressing back down on the piston to recover the energy lost during compression. So energy is consumed by compression, but is re-directed to accelerating air outside the cylinder instead of being recovered during the decompression cycle. Jake brakes are very load and this is why residents near highway downgrads complain about their usage.

Getting back to normal four stroke engines without jake brake valves, most of the engine braking is due to movement of air under the pistons and friction.

Depending on the car (if it's safe to do this), one way to test this is to drive on a long downgrade, shut off the engine, and notice that throttle position has virtually no effect on the amount of engine braking, only the rpms. Warning - I wouldn't do this on a carberated car since the gas fumes will fill the exhaust and could possibly blow a hole in the exhaust when the engine is turned back on.

Quote from halo :

When you try to turn the engine by turning the crank (with a proper wrench) you can feel the resistance of the compressing piston.

But once that piston is past top dead center, it gets much easier to turn the engine, or the pressure in that piston may be enough to turn the engine on it's own.

You could remove all the spark plugs and place springs in the cylinders and you'd get essentially the same effect, and springs don't consume energy.

Ok, an actual video, although a short one, of the LX8, not much to see, but the engine sound was better than the LX6.

lx8.wmv

Another very short video of a real Caterham that eventually made 250hp, but was rev limited to 7200 rpm / 225hp in this video. The car is now in San Francisco. At least you'll get an idea of the sound of the real thing:

cat1.wmv


As mentioned, Caterham is now promoting a race series for the CSR 260, that includes the usage of slicks. Note that the engines are Ford Duratec 2.3 liter 4 cylinder engines. Cosworth does the mods, but I'm not sure where the mods are done for the UK cars. There's a Cosworth in Long Beach California that does the mods for the same Ford Duratec engines in Californnia, and possibly for most of the USA based Caterham CSR 260's.

There is a Caterham CSR 330 prototype, using a supercharged 2.3 liter Duratec:

Caterham x330

More realistic is the fact that the Champ Car Mazda Atlantic series is also based on the same Ford Duratec 2.3 liter (called Mazda MZR, but it's the same engine) modified by Cosworth in Long Beach, Califonia, but these engine produce 300hp (they don't have to last as long), and these could be used in racing Caterhams along with a stronger drive train. The Champ Atlantic cars have a top speed of 175mph (significant downforce, else top speed would be even higher). Think of these as the modern day equivalent of Indy Light race cars before IRL, and CART split up into two groups:

Champ Car Atlantic

Race 07 includes a CSR 200, CSR 260, and a CSR 320 (not quite the 330, but close). CSR 320 video: r07obc3.wmv

Although 0 to 60mph is very fast and 0 to 100mph is also quick, the high drag factor of the Caterham body limits top speed of the CSR 260 to about 155mph. The CSR260 isn't cheap, it costs almost as much as a Corvette Z06, and the Z06 includes extras, like real doors, a roof, ...

Last edited by JeffR, Sat, 27 Oct 2007 07:30.

Quote from xaotik :

Jeff, I have to ask: is there any time that you don't have fraps going when playing a driving game? You seem to have an endless supply of video captures from games.

I do use fraps a lot, even for non-racing games (see below). Part of this is to allow potential players to get an ideal of the look and sound of a racing game. Sometimes I get a request to make a video for the arcade games, where I seem to do better than I do at racing sims (I'm about 4% to 7% slower than the top sim guys depending on the game).

As for the non-racing games, I've been a Tomb Raider fan since the original, a few samples from the latest one, where Lara shows off a lot of her moves:

tragp1.wmv

If you go to my web site, I also have some real race car videos, plus some miscellaneous stuff.

Getting a bit back on topic, I forgot to include this short clip of the sound of a real Caterham (2.3 liter, about 225 hp at the time, rev-limited, later bumped to about 250hp by the guy I sold it to).

cat1.wmv

A 2003 Ferrari F1 race car at Monza:

mnzaf1.wmv

Last edited by JeffR, Sat, 27 Oct 2007 06:49.

Sounds and graphics - seems a bit off topic, but if you want sounds and graphics comarasons:

Live For Speed:

lfsslzg.wmv

lfsblf1.wmv

Race 07:

r07obc3.wmv

r07bhf31.wmv

Arcade racers like Need For Speed series are hard to beat Carbon:

nfscview.wmv

ncsctccx.wmv

NFS High Stakes (released in 1999):

n4kpcl.wmv

n4raf1.wmv

Last edited by JeffR, Fri, 26 Oct 2007 07:02.

Quote from halo :

A 4-cylinder engine, due to the power creation occurs 4 times of working principle, at the specific time there is always one cylinder generates the power, in other words 180-degree in 720 total degree. Rest of the cylinders are in either compressing, exhaust or intake position. All these three phases are slowing down the engine.

Even with no fuel, there is still the one cylinder generating power, as the compressed air generates a force against the piston on it's way down in what would be it's normal power cycle.

As previously mentioned, the compression and expansion of air doesn't consume a lot of energy. It's the friction and the movement of air within the crankcase, under the pistons, that consumes energy.

Quote :

engine braking for oversteer control, not braking

My addition here. Normally engine braking isn't used just for braking but rather to control oversteer in turns. Lift throttle induced oversteer can scrub off speed and keep a car turning inwards. Trying to trail brake in a similar situation could induce understeer, unless the braking balance was rearwards, which can be an issue if a track includes downhill braking sections.

Quote :

slipper clutches

These limit the amount of engine braking. You can tell if a racing game implements a slipper clutch by seeing if engine rpms vary depending on throttle inputs without a change in actual speed. The only racing game I'm aware of that does this is Grand Prix Legends. In real life, some race cars, most racing motorcycles, and some street motorcycles use slipper clutches.

Quote from scipy :

It's the engine friction

It's also the energy consumed by all the movement of air below the pistons. Above the piston, the energy used up by compressing the air is mostly returned when as the air pushes back on the piston on it's way down. Above the piston, the air acts as a spring with very little energy consumption.

However, below the piston, in the crankcase, there's not a lot of change in pressure, just movement of air between the cylinders, and this consumes a lot of energy. At higher rpms, it's this movement of air, and not engine friction, that is the dominate factor in engine braking. In the case of pro stock drag racing motorcycles (and possibly other drag racing vehicles), a vacuum pump is used to evacuate the crankcase to eliminate this loss of energy from below the pistons.

Unless the engine is disconnected from the driven wheels, via a clutch or the tranny in neutral, there will be engine braking whenever the driver / player lifts on the throttle (assuming the vehicle is moving at a reasonable speed). I've experienced lift throttle induced oversteer in a Caterham without downshifting. For some racing vehicles (cars and motorcycles), the maximum amount of engine braking is limited via a slipper clutch. Regarding racing sims, engine braking is used quite a bit in Grand Prix Legends, and the differential sensitivity is adjustable via the "coast" ramp angles.

Last edited by JeffR, Thu, 25 Oct 2007 01:57.

Very short Caterham video (like a LX6), but you can hear the engine sound OK:

cat1.wmv

Race 07's version, which is reasonably close.

r07obc3.wmv

Getting back on topic, why does there have to be a rFactor vs LFS unless someone in this thread thinks that one of the developers is going to make changes because of the other game?

In my opinion, it's nice to have choices, and in the USA, where racing sims aren't popular, the racing sims are cheap. GTR2+GTLegends combined for $20 (USA), Race 07 for $20 (USA) if ordered through an online store like EBGames. On the other hand a new release of Need For Speed will fetch $35 to $40 (USA) (and yes I like these games also).

Regarding rFactor, I think they "cheated". The basic game itself is reasonably nice, but the developers were counting on a lot of mods and tracks being made or converted to run on rFactor.

Quote from Shotglass :

i think it was tristan who posted about how the cars in lfs at least fly in a believable way after some of the more silly collision detection glitches about a year ago

Example of silly collision detection in an old version of LFS (from back in 2004). It's a lot better now.

lfsbmpr.wmv

Quote :

How some sims handle rigid bodies aka the most basic thing in physics

Well the car model may be rigid, but it definately didn't stay parallel to the road in this case:

gtrspap.wmv

The in air path didn't seem that much different than the real thing (driver was OK):

mercfly.wmv

Quote :

tracks too smooth

This is a compromise to allow high downforce cars like the BMW F1 to run. My guess is this is the reason Blackwood was smoothed out. If the tracks were bumpy, it would tear F1 cars apart.

Quote :

Race 07 cheap ...

In the USA, Race 07 is $20 (USA) at EBGames online. GTR2/GTLegends are offered together, also for $20 USA at the local stores. On the other hand, Need For Speed Carbon Collector's Edition was initially selling for $35 to $40 in the USA. Racing sims aren't popular in the USA so they're cheaper here.

Race 07 is supposed to be a "WTCC" game, so it doesn't have a lot of variety of cars. Open wheel cars are Formula 3000 and Formula BMW (relatively slow, not F1 cars). Obviously there are WTCC type cars plus, the Radical SR3+SR4, and Caterhams, which are quite good in the game, at 200, 260, and 320hp (in real life there is a 330 prototype), as it's captured the go-kart like driving style (they drift) fairly well.

The dashes in the cars are plain and once the helmet is removed (see below), the dashes in the open wheel cars are very plain. For the F3000, the animated shifting should have been skippped or used paddle shifters, since it's about 1/2 second behind the actual shift, which looks silly, but you can see the glow of the disk brakes from the cockpit view which makes up for some of this.

Bottom line for me, it was definately worth the $20. I made a video of a f3000, so those that don't have the game can get an idea of what it's like:

r07bhf31.wmv

update - since I mentioned caterhams, added a video with one:

r07obc3.wmv

Quote :

Helmet view I can't mod.

Fixes available at RSC for this, although you still get annoying bug splats.

clear helmet thread

no helmet thread

If you don't like the Euro Sport logo on your replays, go here:

Program Files\RACE 07 Offline\UiData\Menu\Textures

and rename or delete MenuArt_EurosportLogo.tga

Last edited by JeffR, Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:58.

Gt version of Acura NSX at Japan track. Note the sequential, no lift shifter:

tsunsx.wmv

F1 car at Monza:

mnzaf1.wmv