Quote from Jakg :

uh oh, i run LFS in either windowed or normal mode and i get "LFS.exe encountered an error

Would you like to send an error report?"

after a few mins

Try extracting a fresh install to a different directory and see if it does the same thing. You may just have a corrupt file.

Quote from Greboth :

Oh ok, so your saying yes the game would be more fragmented but thent he addons would bring new people so would cancel out?

I'm saying that fear of "fragmentation" is nothing more than fear that your preferred combo will not have enough people. In reality, the addition of a new car or track would not only have the possibility of adding new players, but it might also cause LESS "fragmentation" of the community. As an example...lets say that you've got a pool of 20 people. 10 of them like Car X on track Y and 10 of them like Car A on track B. Add in a new car and track and maybe all 20 would like the new combo. Now, you've just UN-fragmented the community!

Quote :

As it stands the 'market' seems to have decided on gtr aston, gtr blackwood, bf1/f08 Oval to name a few. So add new cars or tracks and the market may decide on those being the the chosen combo but if people dont want that then the number of servers becomes very limited.

Do you think the number of servers is limited now? Was the number limited before the new Aston configs came out? Was the number limited in S1? On the other hand, take something like nK Pro - only four tracks and three cars, but virtually NO servers! More choice does not necessarily mean fewer people per server.

Quote :

Thats not how i meant it. Take it to the extremes, say there 1000 tracks and 1000 cars and everyone with different preferences would you ever get a full server? yes the more popular ones would get played but the players would be more spread out than they are now.

This just doesn't happen. People will gravitate toward their favorites and toward other players. You don't want to drive on the track alone, right? Neither does everyone else! If you take a look at LFS right now there are a TON of combos 800+ at last count) , not including an unlimited number of autocross layouts. Despite this, virtually every populated server is running one of about a dozen well known configurations. That means that we're running only about 2% of the track combos at any given time. So, I guess LFS must already be "fragmented". The same thing was true before we got the new Aston layouts and the BF1. The same thing was probably true in S1 (though I wasn't around then so I can't say for certain).

Quote :

Thats just it though, not everyone is going to buy the same addons. Say someone relesed a nascar i wouldnt buy it but you might. Someone could make a gokart id buy and you would for example. This would happen with every addon making people either buy addons they dont want just to play or not play.

I personally think paid add-ons is a bad idea, and said so in my first post in the thread. However; the only way this would negatively impact you is if people that you currently play with abandoned playing with you to try something else. Realistically, if they drive with you now they probably like the same types of cars and tracks as you. So, if they quit racing your favorite combo and move on to something else, perhaps you might get enjoyment by doing the same.

Quote :

This is only my opinion though, im not saying its right. I was simply saying i personally wouldnt buy addons i would leave lfs. Also the addons would be available to the community, so yes it may attract more people but i just think it would fragment the server even more.

Whatwill you do when the S3 alpha/beta comes out? Will you buy it? If so, what's the difference between buying a large upgrade later or smaller, incremental upgrades now? If you don't plan to buy S3, what will you do when everyone else does and you're left with S2? This is the same scenario you'd see if there were add-ons available. This is the same scenario that every game goes through. A sequel inevitably comes out and people buy it and move on. You either go with the crowd or you play alone. It's the same thing here.

Quote from Hyperactive :

For me the apshalt looks too "new" or something. It just too polished and everything.

I agree that most of the texture updates I've seen look newer than the original LFS textures. It makes every edited track look like freshly laid asphalt. It's like running at a brand new track, not an old, worn, well loved one.

However; I think these guys have done a great job here. Especially when you consider the strange mapping and the limitations of the current tracks. I'll take a slightly-too-new high res track over a more weathered low res track any day. Excellent work, boys!

I agree that AI is important. Even though I race online a fair bit, I enjoy racing the AI as well. Especially when I want to run a combo that nobody is currently hosting. It would be nice to jump on and have a good 30 minute race without having to worry about finding/starting a server, getting enough people to join, having people that are clean drivers, running similar times, etc.

Once the AI can account for fuel load, can account for camber on roads, and can pit, I think I'll be racing the AI a lot more often. Or, racing two or three friends, with the rest of the grid filled out with AI.

Quote from Greboth :

You just said it wouldnt fragment the community yet go on to explain how it would fragment the community. You say yu and yur friends would race it but then go on to those who dont dont pay for it - which would cause fragmentation.

So you think that LFS should only have one car and one track? Because that's the ONLY way to have a "non fragmented" user base.

Fragmentation is just a fancy word for "nobody wants to drive the combo I want to drive". The only time this becomes a problem is when there are so many combos that you end up not having enough people to fill any of the servers OR you have third party add-ons which prevent people from connecting to the servers that they'd like to play on (think rFactor). And the only people that seem to complain about this are the ones who play on or host servers with popular configs (GTRs on Aston, for instance). As long as everyone has the content, there's no such thing as "fragmentation". The combos that people want to play get played - the combos they don't want to don't. Simple as that.

Don't forget that for every new car or track you add, not only are you adding a new combo to the game, but you're also expanding the scope of the game and making it more attractive to people who might otherwise not play. You could make an argument that adding a NASCAR style car to the game would "fragment" the user base. I would argue that adding that car may very well add a few hundred new players to the game that otherwise wouldn't play.

Give the users as much content as you can and then let market forces decide which ones get played.

Quote from Vain :

Devil: You also don't magically pop up in a car. And the engine doesn't magically start. And the ignition doesn't magically come on. And the car doesn't magically appear in the pits. And you don't magically own several race-cars.

Touche'

I would absolutely love it if we had to start our own cars before going on track. This is one thing that nK actually does right (though, they REALLY need hot keys in that damn game. Clicking on the screen is a pain). Combine that with a first person mode and you could even have Le Mans style starts!

I think that eventually we'll see sims evolve to the point that you can pull your car out of the trailer and into the pits. Your guys will go about their duties prepping the car, you can drive out and do your testing or qualifying. Later you'll have to drive out and get in the proper place on the grid. Eventually we'll probably get that level of immersion. For now, every little thing we can add helps. Starting in the pits with the engine off is a good start.

Quote from mrbogeyman :

I don't think OPTIONAL add-on content is a good idea for the reasons mentioned above, i.e. fragmented multiplayer.

I think the whole idea of a "fragmented community" is not a risk as long as everyone has access to the content (ie: it's in a non-pay patch), or as long as the content is so good that nearly everyone buys it. Take a look at Halo 2 and it's add-on map pack. It didn't "fragment" the community because everyone who plays the game wanted those new maps.

I would like nothing more than to get some new cars and tracks in LFS (okay, I'd like a better clutch model more, but that's about it). If the devs release a stadium truck or a mountain pass track, I and my friends will happily play it for hours on end. Those of you who don't want to can feel free to keep running the GTRs on Aston, just like you've always done.

LFS is far and away the best race sim on the market, and I think the devs know how much we love it and how much we appreciate their hard work. But, even so, I don't think it's possible to have too much content.

I think it's interesting that nearly all of the off-limits places in this vid don't allow skidmarks.

I don't know if playing on a big screen has improved my lap times or not. I probably don't drive enough to notice. However; it definitely DOES improve immersion and my sense of what the car is doing. A big screen is the most important thing next to a good steering wheel, IMO.

I would like to humbly suggest that any replacement curbs use wider sections of color. The very thin sections that the tracks use right now are too narrow and cause strange banding at all but the highest resolutions (like looking at a pinstripe suit on TV).

I agree that bigger is better, but with the caveat that you need good resolution. I don't know what the specs are on the TV that the OP mentioned, but I'm running a ~50" projection screen myself. The size is VERY immersive. Probably the best investment I made in my LFS rig other than my DFP. However; unless you're running a pretty high resolution it's going to be distracting. I'm running 1280x720 (720p HDTV resolution) and it looks good, but I can still see the individual pixels because the screen is so large and so close.

For a 30"+ screen I'd want to make sure that it can display at least 720 lines of resolution. More = better, so long as your machine can push the pixels.

Edit: I looked at the specs. It's got a DVI connection, it's a decent resolution, it's got a decent contrast ratio. No mention of the refresh rate, but unless it's horribly slow it sure looks like it'd be a decent gaming monitor.

Last edited by Cue-Ball, Mon, 7 Aug 2006 22:54.

I haven't heard a peep from these guys since Bruce's message above (over a month ago). To top it off, it seems that their site is down. Not good signs, in any case.

Quote from Kris-Is-Awesome :

it wont let me click "Launch LFS"


What gives?

That feature is still on the to-do list. The graphic is just there as a placeholder, like some of the other buttons on the top menu.

Quote from Becky Rose :

That depends so much on the system though. My PC sure, but I know for a fact that over 99% of LFS users don't have a RAID array. What if the HDD's are in power save mode because LFS has been playing 15 minutes?

I'd like to see you drive for 15 minutes without hearing a peep from the pit guy. I can hardly go three turns without him spouting off something!

Quote from Becky Rose :

I believe Scawen said in the U19 test patch thread that rewindable replays are coming quite soon, i'm not sure about pausing each frame, and I still dont get why I need to do it.

I'm under the impression that replays will be able to "jump back" like a tivo, not actually rewind or play in reverse. I don't think you do need to be able to record each discreet frame. It will give you a cleaner source to work with, but I think it's overkill for something like this.

Sorry to drag things OT.

Becky - Are you saying that you plan to record each race from your PC to your DVD recorder, from multiple different angles? Am I hearing that right? That means that you'll have to play back the race, in real time, at least half a dozen times, using at least half a dozen DVDs. Then you'll have to rip those DVDs to AVI so that you can edit them.

I would definitely recommend trying Fraps before you go through that much work. Though, recording a half hour program via fraps is gonna give some HUGE files. If you can get your hands on a hardware MPEG2 capture card, that would be your best bet. Too bad you're in PAL-land or I'd loan you one of my NTSC cards.

Quote from TagForce :

Well, it's there for GPL and NR200x Season. I think it's possible to have LFS stop rendering and proceed a set interval with insim commands, so it shouldn't be too hard to make it.

Neither of those games have a real-time sound generation system. I'm not a programmer, but from everything I've read that is the one big thing that prevents LFS from having the things that other sims often do (rewind in replays, for instance). There seems to be no easy way to get the sound out if it's not running in real time.

Quote from TagForce :

[totally offtopic mode]
Making really good quality videos will only be really possible with a system that has the ability to stop the playback and process each rendered frame in a non-realtime fashion. So that even the slowest of machines capable of running LFS can render movies at a full 29.97fps 768x525 NTSC DVD with everything turned to maximum eyecandy. It will also need to be able to grab the audio from the engine (so that it can perfectly sync audio to video).

I agree with you that such a thing would be really nice. But I think that for a somewhat long program (say, a half hour or hour of TV-like coverage) it's overkill. As long as the framerate can be kept over 30fps and there isn't a lot of "lag jumping" and warping in the replay, the video should be plenty good enough. I'm 90% positive that I could record good quality video on my home machine without a problem at the resolution you suggest. A hardware based capture card works wonders.

Quote :

If such a system is created, then adding a ticker (you're american and used to watching FOX and NBC broadcasts, aren't you? ) would be just a matter of creating a flexible add-on for the capture engine.

Actually, I mostly watch SPEED. They have a ticker on most of their race coverage including Speed GT, Speed Touring Car, American Le Mans, etc. It constantly scrolls the names and numbers of the cars along with their positions. It also has an indicator for when the track is under a full course caution, and it sometimes shows the leaders for each class in ALMS.

The rendering system you describe would be nice, but I think i'll be old and grey before we see such a thing. It seems to me that it would be just as easy to just render a ticker using data from the race. Then, that could be overlaid on the video using video editing tools, similar to what a real TV station might use.

I still contend that the really hard part is the camera work. A single race lap might take shots from half a dozen track cameras, a forward facing car camera, a rearward facing car camera, etc. Then there are cameras in the pits (not much to see in LFS at the moment in that regard) as well. Getting all of these shots in LFS is VERY time consuming. Hence, most of the LFS videos we currently see are either very, very short or they're longer, but taken from very few camera positions. Following a two car battle for the lead in LFS, over the course of a single lap, would take a long time. Doing it for a whole race, then adding in extra camera views, slo-mo replays of accidents, etc. is going to be a huge undertaking. I can see it taking months of production and some seriously good video editing tools just to cover a single 25 lap race in this "TV style". I'm VERY curious to see how STCC does their videos.

Quote from Becky Rose :

No it's still v0.2. I'm going to add config file saving, and maybe a few quick things this weekend, then i'm going to start doing the features I need for the STCC (which spawned this whole project) because the first race is only a few weeks away now and i've a bucket load of stuff to do.

Just out of curiosity, what are the features you need for STCC and how exactly did it spawn this project? I'm guessing that other leagues may find this tool very helpful as well. I was looking at the STCC page and didn't see any downloads for videos...do you guys have any? I've always thought it would be cool to make a video of a really good, long race in the broadcast style. Something similar to Le Mans, but using a replay from the Endurance League or something. I think the biggest barrier would be the time it takes to capture video, especially with multiple camera angles. That, and the addition of a position ticker at the top of the screen.

On the topic of the tool - I'd also like to suggest the default sound volume be set to 20% once you get configs working. That's what I use and someone else in the thread mentioned the same setting as well. At the very least, it will be easy for someone to turn it up louder if they need to, but the low setting will keep people from getting blasted out on their first try.

Quote from Jakg :

if this is the verrsion where i can save things ill give it a try, is it?

Should be the same version that Becky posted yesterday. Saving doesn't work yet, but it only takes me about 10 seconds to set things up. I change volume to 20% and turn off backfires. Open LFS and start playing.

Simple.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Re new sounds: Yes there will be new sounds and triggers, but it wont break a voice pack if there are missing sounds. I will clearly state when new sounds have been added and what they do.

I'm not worried about the new sounds breaking the old packs. I just thought that it wouldn't make much sense to make a voice pack, then have a bunch of new sounds added (that wouldn't be in the old pack) a few weeks later. So, if you know what is going to be added already, it would be good to know before anyone starts making a voice pack.

Quote from Becky Rose :

That's a shame as I know there's quite a lot of Estonian drivers around in LFS who would have appreciated it .

Before we all get too gung-ho on new voice packs, are there going to be more sounds added to the program? You mentioned additional trigger sounds in an earlier post.

Quote from Victor :

btw, just wondering - how many people pay attention to the banners in the header of every page here on the forum? There's also an LFS World banner there (the one with the online racers graph).

I always check out the banners and I think I've visited all the sites so far. I haven't seen a new one in a while.

The banner with the online racers graph always makes me sad though. It's always on a downward slope when I'm able to play (since I'm in North America).

A couple of bugs to report which may or may not be related to the same thing that causes bad sectors to not be reported. I've seen the following:

Messages that I'm in position X when I'm either ahead or behind that postion (ie: it thinks I'm in 6th when I'm in 4th or vice versa). Someone else reported this already, I know.

I got a message that I was on the last lap, right after I'd crossed the finish line and ended the race (in first place).

I got a message that the car ahead had not yet stopped for fuel, but I was running in first place.

I got a message that I was running great (I'm guessing it was a "fast sector" message, but I had just spun out and lost a ton of time not 10 seconds before I got the message.

Other than these little problems, I love it. Once it's polished a bit I'm sure this will be a VERY popular mod.

Becky - I finally got home and had the chance to try my mp3 versions with your program. It wouldn't recognize them with the .mp3 extension. I renamed them to .wav and they sound very distorted in-game. However; if you listen to them in Media Player they sound perfectly fine. Any ideas?

Also, a little user experience - I've found that the messages that you're battling a car ahead/behind are mostly unnecessary. When the car is a lapped car, or when you're a lap car they're nice, but when you're on the same lap as the other car you generally know it. I've renamed ahposX.wav and behposX.wav which makes it much nicer. You may want to make a separate on/off checkbox for position announcements of cars on the same lap as your car.