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AirAttack Daylicious Races - General Discussion
Hello everyone, the time has come to try something new at AirAttack, something for more advanced demo people looking for good LFS racing. Maybe you know there are regular endurance FBM events already taking place every Saturday evening at the [AA] Demo Racing server. These races are getting some serious attention already, but we can always try to improve the standards, e.g. improve the announcements to limit the ever present confusion about race start times etc.

The idea, brought forward by Mugen (thx!), is to have a kind of more serious race (or races) at the [AA] Demo Racing server every day in the (European) evening, when there are most people online. We think there could be regular and fully automatic events every evening, 3 times a week a FBM race, 3 times a GTI (BL1) race and once a week a rallycross (BL2) endurance race(s). The events should take from 1 to 1.5 hours and should be limited only to drivers with reasonably good lap time and above average safety rating on AirAttack. The events will also be open, no registration - anyone complying with the set limits can join at any time.

Monday : GTI + BL2, short qualification (10-15 mins) followed by two 25 minute races
Tuesday : FBM + BL1, three 15 minute sprint races (with pit required?)
Wednesday : GTI + BL1, same as above
Thursday : FBM + BL1, two 25 minute mid-length races, no pitstop
Friday : GTI + BL1, same as above
Saturday : FBM + BL1, one 55 minute endurance race, one pitstop required with all tyres changed (for realism)
Sunday : GTI + BL1, same as above

This is the original idea, your comments are most welcome. I think 3x15, 2x25 and 1x55 minute races all represent nicely separated almost 1 hour of racing. These races are for set minutes + 1 lap for the leader, so 15 minutes + 1 lap may actually turn out to be 17 or 18 total minutes of race. Every event starts by qualification, first 12 have preferential race joining, which is fair. For 2nd and 3rd race the grid can be completely or partially reversed based on previous race results, to make the racing more enjoyable.

Everything is open to discussion. Particularly I'd like to know your opinions concerning pit stops in the sprint races. They are not necessary, of course, but they always add some tactical options and often make the race more interesting. The proposed 1st race start time is 20:00 WET (London, server) time, which is 21:00 CET (Berlin, Paris, Prague). The qualification would start 15-30 minutes earlier. Thus the whole event should alway finish at about 21:00 WET (22:00 CET), which seems to be reasonable even for weekdays.

Well, I think that's enough as the opening info. Please say what you like and what you don't. There are other options available, such as doing realistic qualification (you may not pit/spec from track, only from the pitlane), allowing one serious mistake (one car reset can be available, for a certain penalty), defining pit window (to prevent making a pitstop in lap 1), etc. Not everything is possible, but many ideas can be implemented. The point is to make these events interesting to advanced drivers.
Sounds great so far, but what about the qualification lengh for all the BL1 races, 25 mins as usual? Maybe we can even try the more realistic way here, with spec/pit only from pitlane.

For the sprint races I would prefere no-pitstops in the 3*15mins races and a must-pit, if you really wish for it in the 2*25mins. Reversed grid, sure it's always a good idea for multiple sprint races in a row. I think first 6 or 8 should start in reversed order.

But why don't you make the endurance races 1h long, it seems more resonable for me then. Pitstops only in a pit-window? I say yes, like a pit open from min 25-40(or an even bigger window?). And you have to do pitworks, like at least one tire change.
Thx for some ideas/comments! I think the shorter the race(s), the shorter qualification is needed, because it is just for the first race anyway. On the other hand longer qualifications, such as 25 minutes, can attract more people. It will be also less confusing to have the same qualification length/race 1 start every day, so I guess 25 minutes is OK for all purposes. The pit/spec only from pitlane works well, but we have BIG problems explaining this even to experienced licensed people, I can't imagine what difficulties the demo people will have. So I'd propose to make it as simple as possible. In time we could try and maybe also allow just one qualification stint, which is a new Airio feature.

Concerning pitstops in the shorter races, maybe one could be required, but only in one of the 15 min and 25 min races. I mean the races could be "15m, 15m with pit, 15m" on Tuesday and Wednesday, then "25m, 25m with pit" on Thursday and Friday, and "55m with pit + tyre changed in a pit window" on Saturday and Sunday. The downside is it will surely bring confusion, people always asking if they must pit or not. Of course there'll be messages and everyone can look using F12, but even experienced people are never sure.

I proposed 15, 25 and 55 minutes, because the races are for the set minutes plus one lap, which will make them all 2 to 4 minutes longer, with the longest race taking 57 to 59 minutes, just under one hour. Pit window from minute 20 to 40 seems sufficient, with all cars under the same pitting status for 2/3 of the whole race. Concerning tyre changes, I think we can check only complete changes, all 4 tyres. This is easy to set by specifying Always as tyre wear level (in F12 menu when on track and under Info tab when in pits).
First I want to say this is a great idea and I hope demo racers will pick up on this!

It all sounds good to me, the only thing I would think about is to limit the amount of race format to avoid confusion, one or two sounds better to me...maybe like one format with 2 shorter races and one with one longer two cents!

You have all my support, just ask if you need anything!
a little post cause i got to go , seems to be very interresting idea
Will look better at the format race this afternoon

A little lap for men, big lap for lfs DEMO rACERS
#6 - C0r3
why do i have to change tyres in 1 hour race? that is not realism, when i am able to drive 1 hour with 1 set of tyres. 55 till 60 laps are possible with r1. with such "old" tyres are the best times possible. i shorter races is makes sense, cause the tyres will cool down around lap 15, what means u are driving with hot tyres the whole race when u cant change the tyres.
I think the remark about having to change tyres in the 1 hour race is a very valid one, though appreciated only by really advanced drivers. On the other hand I sort of do not like pitstops taking 1.20 or 1.21 seconds, because this is far more unrealistic than changing tyres after 30 minutes of racing. Also pitstop gives some strategic thinking options, deciding if you make it early or late in the pit window (probably between 20th and 40th minute of the race). Now, what options we have, if tyre change is not required?

1) We may allow the extremely fast pitstops. (You know, the tyre change was intended to make the pitstop realistic, that was its sole purpose, to make the pitstop at least 6 seconds or whatever time is always needed to change all tyres.)

2) We may (after small Airio updates) require some minimum pitstop time, say 8 or 10 seconds. If you change tyres do some repairs or refuel in that time, good, if not, no problem, your decision.

I sort of like the 2nd option, but I can already see the problems connected with communicating this principle to the people. Basically you'd have to stop, watch the pitstop time, and leave only after you see that 10 seconds or so elapsed, not earlier.
Much more realistic if you have one required pitstop. I like the 2nd opinion, incase you have som damage you need to get rid of you wont loose anything repairing it.
#9 - C0r3
y, the 2nd option is a nice idea. btw: are there already daily races, or is it planned? is there an event today?
Quote from EQ Worry :
I sort of like the 2nd option, but I can already see the problems connected with communicating this principle to the people. Basically you'd have to stop, watch the pitstop time, and leave only after you see that 10 seconds or so elapsed, not earlier.

I like the idea, but this would be looking for problems in my opinion, many will get penalties and that will make many unhappy racers.

Personally I think changing tires add a little more strategy in to the game, you have to chose how and when you exploit their best potential, pit times are more variable and it gives a chance to who has burned his tires prematurely... even if I agree full potential is often in the end of a 1h+ stint, but then you need much longer race and we're talking about endurance . Also it is much more realistic than pitting to say hello to the pit crew....that's why I think pit windows should be long enough if you use that system, like 10min after start and closing 10min before start...
Thanks for the responses, the races are still in the preparations phase, the scripts still need to be created and tested. That's why this discussion, I'd like to have a clear race format and requirements in mind before starting work on the scripts. I believe next week we can have a sort of test races, all seven of them, and the week after the events should be regular.
I would prefer option 2 over 1, too, but a must tire change is still my favourite for the 1h races, otherwise you could fill up your car and just drive and pit 1 lap before the pitwindow closes

So just like Framaris described, strategy and tactic would become more important.
DmanPL (InFerioR)
What time would these events be if I live Central time in the US? I guessing it would be morning?
Quote from DmanPL :What time would these events be if I live Central time in the US? I guessing it would be morning?

I think you're right. All the event times/days are server times/days and the server is located in the UK. The best way to be sure you have the time right is to type !now, which shows the current server time. From that you can see difference to your local time and recalculate event start time. For example if I see after typing !now that the server (UK) time is 22:10 and my local time is 14:10 (which could be central US case?), the difference is 8 hours. Events start at 19:30 server time, which corresponds to 11:30 local time (i.e. minus 8 hours).
Additional ideas
So, we had a full week of the events. I believe there were no significant troubles concerning the Airio automated actions – just about everything was running smoothly, the announcement, information, server configuration changes, called actions. Minor things will be improved, but overall I think the test week was a success. Even the attendance was quite nice, if we can keep the events clean and enjoyable, I believe we can have regulars in a short time there, the GTI people knowing their time is WE, FR, and SU, while FBM people coming on TU, TH, and SA, and rallyx on MO.

Currently I see two issues that could turn into serious problems in time: 1) XRG and XFG are not really equal cars, 2) the same aliens could win all the races they take part in.

Ad 1) There are two possible solutions: a) do not allow XRG (it is faster and even more fun to drive, but XFG is much more used and friendly), b) allow XRG but with applied restriction, I'd say 1-2% of intake air (this would slow it down somehow). Currently we're using solution a), only XFGs are allowed, so that all cars are perfectly equal.

Ad 2) Personally, I'd love to see Airio dynamic handicap (dynacap) system in action here, to equalize the racing field. The basic principle would be relatively simple: When you achieve a good result (say a podium), you must add some weight to your car for the next race. If you finish somewhere in the back, you can get rid of some previously accumulated additional weight. Your current weight handicap transfers to the next race and to the next event, equalizing the field to a certain extent over time. This is a principle known from real races (I think WTCC uses it). The downside is the aliens may not like the slightly heavier/slower/different cars. The upside is somehow equalized chances for everyone and more dramatic championship.

As always, comments are most welcome!
Sorry I have not been there for this test week, organizing the Genuine Racing league team and the preparation for the GTAL took most of mine free time last week.

I always wanted to see this dynamic system from airio working, and I think it could fix the problem you have with balancing the cars without alienating one category of drivers...only problem is that some racers still have problems understanding how to set restrictions.

Feel free to call me if you need any help, I should have some time this week..
I think static and dynamic restrictions arent really needed. The only case where I can imagine use of restriction is a race with more car types. Example XRG/XFG. If you really feel that XRG is faster add some intake restriction to it maybe 5%. Dynamic restriction is really bad as you always need to set it and as some racers are disadvantaged.
Dynamic handicaps will kill this event for sure for the future, even if average drivers can win ONE race, the additional mass of +25kg will kill them in the next race. Or even the 15 or 10 or even 5 kg will make them loose fun. It's hard to find motivation if you know that you have no chance in winning if you have a +25kg, its way too much with these underpowered demo cars. If you have two different cars and want to make them equal then its ok, like with the XFG and XRG, there it make sense, but maybe only air restriction too compense the higher speed of the XRG. But with the dynamic handicap in the FBM events, most of the regular drivers will avoid the event, since even an additional mass of 5-10kg will slow you down significantly.
Funny is that mugen still could get in 2 or 3 position but server gave him another 15kg hc to kill him next race. Anyway i was slow, i crashed and still won by 18 seconds. Mugen best time was 1:13.4 I mean and mine 1:12.8 he was like 0.6-0.8 seconds slower!
Another 20kg so it will be +45kg next time. And with 45kg I dont see any sense for me in racing, it's like with tied up hands and feet....

+25kg was quite hard, even though I managed somehow to get by, but in my opinion it's a joke with +45kg and only 140hp, anyways what's the highest amount you can get? If the upper limit is infinite it means that you can get a +100kg mass??
Hmmm, ok, I see. Please bear in mind that this was (and still is) a test. One conclusion I see is that the weight restrictions were probably too high. So, step one, I turned off the dynacaps (dynamic handicaps) for the following events (starting Saturday, December 11th). But what now?

Option 1: Forget about dynacaps completely. The positive side is no special changes are required from people, the negative side is that the winner will mostly be known before the race start (except in some of the multi-race evenings with partially reversed starting grid).

Option 2: Use the weight restrictions, but much lower, say only +3 kgs for victory with max at 30 kgs. Negative side is again required small setup changes, positive side is we could actually have races with fights and not just waiting if a certain alien makes a mistake.

What say you?
(L@gger) DELETED by L@gger
In my opinion and others share the same its useless. Last race many racers said that they dont care if mugen win in a row but they want a fair fight with him. Race isnt about changing grid its about skills. We can change grid by getting more experience. This is something like computer win lottery.

BTW: I felt worse when I won last saturday than when I had a great race the saturday before and didnt even completed.
I think the overall idea you have in mind is good, but if we want to have dyn. handicaps we must define what the max. handicap is and how much you will get for victory.

30kg are pretty much for those demo cars. 25kg was quite the max. amount we should considering in this feature, like last time it was a slow down in laptimes of about -0,6 to -0,8 seconds. In my opinion 15-20kg should be the max handicap.

But how much should the winner gets? Maybe starting with 3, 2, 1kg (takes five wins to be at max) for the first three, but then when you are at max or couldnt finish in the first three there should be a reduction in the handicap for the next race. So in this way it could be a consideration for the events, otherwise it end up in a lot of frustration.

But still I'm not such a fan of handicaps
Me too. Those racers who would like this idea are still too slow to win with 30kg hced opponents. But I dont think so that it will take there people I think it will just an opposite effect as it wont be about skill anymore. And a very active racers in this event will be just frustrated. I would probably quit if it go this way as I want to have some serious racing against my skill category. Anyway whats with fast people from 2 months ago events?
Yes, I was afraid the fast people will be unhappy. But I'd like to try what Mugen suggest, that means use the dynacaps, but on a substantially reduced scale. I'd suggest using +3, +2, +1, 0, -1, -2, -3 settings for 1st to 7th (and worse) place, with max mass at 25 kgs not to limit the fast people too much. I would delete current handicaps, so that both FBM and GTI start with zeroes...