Hey guys


I just saw a couple of laps of today's F1 GP, and there it stroke me again:

These guys step on the throttle WAY after the apex the very very most of the time.

Usually you'd say "don't brake to late, go for the apex and step on the gas as early as possible" (meaning even before the apex most of the time). But what the F1 drivers do is pretty close to what I feel works best for me too, be it in my everyday fwd car, on the bike or in a kart: brake quite late into maybe 1/3 of the bend, then take on SOME gas just to have a neutral balance for another 3rd (incl. apex) and then open the throttle during the last 3rd.

In LFS I used to do this too. I was slow. So I thought maybe I have to dogmatically do the "slow in, fast out" (SIFO) thing. I think it made me even slower.

I get the feeling that SIFO is kind of safe and quickish but never superfast. It works though for all the cool guys in their Imprezas and Lancers who have a lot of spare traction and horsepower: brake a lot too much, turn in, slam on the gas and enjoy the 150-hp NA fwd car getting smaller in the backview-mirror. just a little rant here...

What do you think?

I guess not having traction control doesn't help... But what do I know.

Slow in fast out is quite a simplification.. You gotta enter the corner as fast as possible without slowing IN the corner. Scrubbing off the last few km/h when turning towards the apex ideally. Then on the power as soon as front AND rear traction allows it. (Only front in a fwd car, both in awd and rwd).

Fast in - Fast Out is my rule olol

Slow in, fast out refers to an late apex when speaking of slow corners. You should take the late apex if the corner is slow and there is a long straight after it, so your speed can be bigger on the straight. If the corner is fast, you are going to take the ideal line in order to carry the best speed out of the corner.

If you enter the corner too fast, but still don't crash/spin, that doesn't mean that you'll be faster, because you'll have to brake IN corner, and that will mean less stability and out of the ideal racing line.

It depends on the corner obviously.

If its a corner followed by a relatively small straight then another turn, then going in fast and scrubbing some speed midway through won't really make you lose time.. But if its a turn followed by a long straight then obviously you wanna go in slow and come out as fast as possible.

I saw that at Yas Marina too and was kinda surprised that they got on the power so late but it was only in the corner where theres 2 left handers with a really small straight in between. I think its when they go under the hotel but I'm not sure...

Quote from Intrepid :

Fast in - Fast Out is my rule olol

I go for the "Fast in - Oh Sh*t - Backwards out on fire" approach, doesn't win many races though.

Some of the really fast drivers brake late all the way to the apex, fade the brakes out and bring in the throttle gradually. I think it was Mark Donohue was one driver who took this approach, I'm not sure though, I just remember a quote from some book somewhere mentioning it.

If you can do it precisely and your car is set up properly its very smooth, and very fast. But slow in, fast out works well enough for the rest us mere mortals.

a few years ago they were comparing shumachers telemetry to his team mates and the area where he gained time was the firs thalf of the bend, most F1 drivers seem to be able to find and drive to the limit on the corner exit but the real fast ones only slow to the limit on the corner entry consistently, most tend to miss the sweet spot and either slow a bit too much and then have to accelerate back to the limit or they carry a bit too much speed in and compramise their corner exit.

They apply the throttle exactly where they should - when the steering starts to unwind. Regardless of what line you are taking, this is always the ideal time. It doesn't matter if it's before, at, or after the apex as long as it's when the steering unwinds. They do this very consistently, very smoothly and very well.

I think the reason why they unwind the steering after the apex is because they generally use earlier apexes. This probably has to do with the differential or the way they use the airflow (airflow needs to come from the front of the car and a later apex means more initial rotation, possibly disrupting the airflow). Honestly I don't know.

Schumacher's Godlike entry speed would come from his brake release. It's the hardest most delicate part about driving a car fast.

the waited because their engines are very powerful. They have to wait for the grip before they can apply full throttle.

Quote from tinvek :

a few years ago they were comparing shumachers telemetry to his team mates...

I believe you are referring to this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk2p2nRK-p4

Schumacher is very smooth and precise with his throttle according to those throttle traces, much like Jenson Button is very smooth with his steering.

Nigel Mansell once said the difference between a fast driver, and a very fast driver is the time they take between the braking point and the apex.

Slow in- Fast out was a mantra that was created to try and combat the inexperienced drivers belief that diving in to corners as fast as possible was the best way to drive. No more, no less.

The exact technique on the fastest way to take a corner depends on a combination of the amount of grip and power available to the individual vehicle.

In Motorcycle racing for example. In the old 2-stroke days, the 250cc GP bikes were actually faster through the apex than the 500c bikes. However, over the entire lap they were slower because of the 500cc bikes obvious power and hence acceleration advantage.

Quote from JJ72 :

Nigel Mansell once said the difference between a fast driver, and a very fast driver is the time they take between the braking point and the apex.

And on a similar note, I remember an old quote (maybe Jackie Stewart?) saying that most racers focus on applying the brakes, but the really important thing is how and when you release the brake pedal on corner entry. If anyone knows the exact quote that would be cool :P But something like that.

Pretty sure F1 goes in harder cause of the high aero/mechanical grip ratio. You wanna do the most cornering effort possible on entry when you're still carrying speed since you lose so much grip as you slow down.

Of course the compromise on throttle application point depending on the length of the next straight still works for them..it's just later in general compared what "other" cars use

I go kart and I find that I can go hard in to most corners and still come out very fast, although for LFS ive had to adapt to slow in fast off, as In LFS you are faster if you use this technique.

Not really, same applies to LFS. If you can be fast in fast out, its always going to be faster. Saying that, i always seem to get pwned on exit speed, so need to go faster out :P

Quote from Scatter :

I believe you are referring to this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk2p2nRK-p4

Edited because actually I had too many drinks and was thinking it was Irvine

Quote from Michael Denham :

And on a similar note, I remember an old quote (maybe Jackie Stewart?) saying that most racers focus on applying the brakes, but the really important thing is how and when you release the brake pedal on corner entry. If anyone knows the exact quote that would be cool :P But something like that.

Jackie Stewart said: the last thing a driver learns to do well is release the brake.

Trail braking is the hardest thing to learn about driving by far. Not only to you have to get within a half a pound of pedal pressure, but you also have to release it at exactly the right rate, while also contending with the subtle differences in line, timing and bumps that always happen on every corner.

I'm not claiming to be especially good, let alone world class, but I spend most of my track time trying to improve my braking, particularly at the point of corner entry to apex. Any fool can get on the power early (just go slowly in, or take a wider line), but maintaining entry speed without compromising line, balance or throttle application is the really hard part.

But there is no such thing as fast in, fast out. Unless by the first fast you actually mean 'just slow enough to optimise the corner'.

Going fast takes little or no skill. It's the going slowly bits that are tricky.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I'm not claiming to be especially good, let alone world class, but I spend most of my track time trying to improve my braking, particularly at the point of corner entry to apex. Any fool can get on the power early (just go slowly in, or take a wider line), but maintaining entry speed without compromising line, balance or throttle application is the really hard part.

But there is no such thing as fast in, fast out. Unless by the first fast you actually mean 'just slow enough to optimise the corner'.

Going fast takes little or no skill. It's the going slowly bits that are tricky.

yes, well said. That is what I mean. Although still, no-one seems to be nearly as fast as me entering the corners. probably just cuz everyone else is just painfully slow

Slow in, fast out is the 1st part of being fast.
Once you do that well, you'll see a significant drop in laptimes, bringing you up near the "godlike" laptimes.
THEN, to get up to the very top, you have to increase the speed into the corner. just like Mansell said.

A fast driver goes slow in fast out.
The fastest one goes fast in, slower inside, fast out.
Its the difference between starting to brake and power on that gives you the final .5secs/lap.
The 3-4secs / lap improvement is simply braking earlier than you'd think, and approach the corner slower than you'd think is needed.
BUUUTTT... if you go 3km/h too fast into the corner... you'll loose between .3 and .5 of a second on that corner alone. So dont push it.