So, what you're saying is that an rwd understeers if it's not in a drift? 
If the target is to go forwards as fast as possible, then it´s best to keep it tidy and not to slide. If u go sideways, it´s againg the idea of going forwards and slowes you down.
People think that when they slide trough the corner, they go faster than when "gripping", because the engine usually revs higher and the corner entry speed is greater. That makes the illusion of the speed.
This is what I think, how it goes. At least I use it. Others can do what they want, but for me racing tidy is the way to go
People think that when they slide trough the corner, they go faster than when "gripping", because the engine usually revs higher and the corner entry speed is greater. That makes the illusion of the speed.
This is what I think, how it goes. At least I use it. Others can do what they want, but for me racing tidy is the way to go
I’m not sure if I’m wasting my time here because if that's all that you could understand out of my post you’re probably not going to catch onto anything else.
Under and oversteer are inevitable when you’re pushing a car to its limits, one has to go first. The aim is to balance a car, so that it experiences over and understeer equally, well that's the theory.
Now different corners and different parts of the corners are more susceptible to either over or understeer. Under/oversteer occurs when there is an unequal amount of force on the front and rear, enough so to surpass the tyres traction. This means if you are suffering understeer you’re fronts are handling more of the force than the rears relative to your setup.
This is a fact of life, as I said, a well balanced setup will experience both in different parts of the course, in theory if you were able to utilize the rears grip in a understeering situation where the rear traction isn’t being used to its limit, to help share the load of steering, it would make sense right?
This is exactly what you are aiming to do when speed drifting, you are utilizing the rear tyres grip in a situation where the rear grip isn’t being used to the limit to help steering thus pulling you're car through the corner quicker.
People who don’t believe that drift can be quicker, key word CAN, then tell me why they use drift techniques in rally, after all rally and circuit racing are the same shit, same principles behind it, the only difference is the amount of grip they have.
You pretty much answered your own question
The loose surface, ruts and grooves, humps and bumps, and lower net friction levels actually change the situation tremendously. A rally car on Tarmac tends to avoid sliding whenever possible except on the tightest turns (unless the stage is part loose, in which case it might be better to have a slidey car and trade off time on the grippy bits).
Also your understanding of vehicle dynamics, especially how and why tyres generate grip based on load and slip angle is massively simplified and is insufficient for a drifting vs racing thread.
If your tyres are doing naff all in the middle of a corner then you'd be VERY slow compared to those that are able to utilise more of the tyre more of the time. Ever had mid-corner oversteer? That's because your tyres are doing a lot and you just asked a smidgen too much of them.
Also your understanding of vehicle dynamics, especially how and why tyres generate grip based on load and slip angle is massively simplified and is insufficient for a drifting vs racing thread.
If your tyres are doing naff all in the middle of a corner then you'd be VERY slow compared to those that are able to utilise more of the tyre more of the time. Ever had mid-corner oversteer? That's because your tyres are doing a lot and you just asked a smidgen too much of them.
In my experience, in LFS: In a corner where you have to completely change direction (a 180 degree-ish corner), given a car that relies more on power than grip (basically the LX6 and very little else) it's sometimes just as quick or slightly quicker to throw it into the corner and have it pointing at the exit as early as you can.
In all other circumstances it's faster to stay at the limit of grip all the time.
In all other circumstances it's faster to stay at the limit of grip all the time.
Firstly you haven’t told us why it’s better to have a “slidey car”, why would they trade time to have a car past its grip limits? Is it easier to handle a car over grooves, humps and bumps when the car is sideways? I don’t really get that part.
2ndly, it’s not every corner where your tyres are doing **** all, you should know that setting up a car to deal perfectly with every situation is impossible, it's all about compromise, to have a car which never suffered from understeer would be a car which is ridiculously oversteery and you’d have the rear end stepping out everywhere.
Hence you live with the fact that it some corners are going to induce oversteer through some parts, and some corners are going to induce understeer through parts, you find the happy medium and you deal with it.
Drift is more effective on the tighter corners; of course you wouldn’t use it on wide open bends. Why do rally drivers use drift around tighter corners? Simple, go back and read what I wrote about the rear fighting the front. On hairpins you have more turning lock, this means the front tyres are pointed at more of an angle relative to your rear wheels, this means a lot of work on the front tyres, and a lot less on the rear and that drive through the rear wheels would push more against the front tyres, creating more “power understeer”.
If you were to set the car up so that it didn’t understeer on hairpins, you’d have to dial in tonnes over oversteer and on wider corners it would be impossible to keep the rear end in check, not to mention braking and entry.
Hence you end up with understeer where the rear tyres aren’t working hard. I’m sure you have too muck around with anti-roll at every circuit you go to balancing the car to each circuit.
As far as mid corner oversteer, I don’t have a lot in my car, and that is the same setup I use for drift so it certainly isn’t oversteer biased. All my oversteer is on the exit of the corner, mid corner is understeer.
Oh my.. someone's arguing about car dynamics with Tristan.
DO YOU HAVE A DEATHWISH?
DO YOU HAVE A DEATHWISH?
been there, done that. don't let his stubbornness fool you :P
Because on a mixed stage it might be better to have a car that handles well on the loose surface more than it's better to have a car than handles well on the tarmac. It's a trade off.
On a slippery surface with ruts, bumps etc the car digs into the surface and allows lateral force to be generated by the tyre pressing against things as opposed to the tread acting purely in surface friction (like shear) as it does on tarmac (mostly). The same principle is why locking up your wheels in snow can reduce braking distances over cadence/threshold/ABS braking.
On wet tarmac it's still quicker to keep it all neat and tidy, even though the level of overall friction might be comparible to dry gravel for instance.
Indeed it is a compromise, but if your rear tyres are ever doing naff all then you will be slow (except in a FWD car when they might do very little on a straight).
Indeed, but even during understeer your rear wheels will still be exploring the limits of adhesion - just they'll be on the other side of 'the limit'.
On tight corners (e.g. tighter than anything in LFS) drifting around it would indeed be quicker, mostly because the rate of yaw is quicker and the rate of acceleration out of a slower corner (lots of excess torque) makes up for it.
In rallying they'll still slide, on loose surfaces, on quite large radius bends. Not because of angles of wheels, but because of the dynamic nature of loose stuff, as touched on above.
Of course it would, but that's an extreme that doesn't prove a point. On corner entry you ideally want your front tyres less than fully loaded so you have steering potential, and by mid corner you want your rear tyres doing less than optimum so you can get on the power. Ideally all the tyres are always working at their maximum though - called tracing the circle of traction - but only the very best drivers are able to do this. Most amateur drivers, myself included, rarely use the whole grip whilst braking and turning or accelerating and turning. Separately it's very easy to achieve maximum, but not combined.
Yes, we fine tune things. But you stated that rear tyres spend portions of time doing **** all (whatever **** was - I'm happy with naff), and it is mostly this aspect that I am disputing. If you'll happily concede that **** actually means merely 90% of their potential then we can move on
And that is why drifters like locked diffs - lots of understeer. It seems backwards doesn't it - someone who wants to spend time in oversteer setting the car up for understeer!
But that is what they seem to do.For Nisskid and Tristan :
You both are right, but you should also stop considering the track itself, but the tire compound as well
Tires, and you obviously know it (but let me tell it for other people as well), do not behave like this :
Grip | No Grip
----------------------------------------------->
Force exerted on the tire.
It behaves more like this :
Grip | Slip Zone | No Grip
------------------------------------------------>
Force exerted on the tire.
The "Slip Zone" (please tell the appropriate term since I do not know the official one) is a zone where your tire will have some slip angle, without losing its grip. Pro racing drivers, for timed runs or qualifications, tend to drive on that limit zone which separates when the tires stick to the road, and when the tires do not stick to the road.
In the slip zone, since you do not lose too much traction (and then propulsive power for the driven wheel) and since you have less resistance with the road (the tires slide a bit), it is overally faster than grip driving.
This is why some cars seem to be "flying" around the corners, because the drivers tend to stay on the Slip Zone.
To drive in that zone, you have to make all of your tires stay in it. If you only have 3 (let's say the outside front for a RWD car is the most likely to be grippy at the exit), you will create a resistance, which will not only slow the car down, but also create a mismatch between the slip angle of your front tires and the angle of your rear tires, making the rear travel faster than at the equilibrium, and tunring the "slide" (4 wheels in the slip zone), into a "drift" (Outside front grips, inside front is in the Slip Zone, Rears are in the no grip zone). If it is only your rear outside tire that is "below" the Slip Zone, in the Grip part, you will break the slip angle of our fronts, which will result in a joyful and awkward understeer.
Of course, the "width" of the Slip Zone depends on the compounds. Race slicks are designed to increase the width of the grip zone toward the right limit of the Slip Zone. It is all the more seeable on soft compounds slicks : either you have traction, either you have not. On R4 (the hardest, for instance), you see that you can lightly slide your tire without causing too much heat, in a very thin slip zone, and yet be fast.
On treaded tires, the hardest the compound is, the larger the Slip Zone will be --> this makes the Normal compound easier to get to a good slide in the slip zone.
The hardest bit to understand is that being fast in the Slip Zone has got nothing to do with the angle. It is about the force exerted on a tire, so basically, untill you reach the peak force where the Slip Zone turns itself to the No Grip zone, you can virtually acheive whatever angle you like (may I remind that I speak about slip angle, and not angle of the car in comparison to the line).
The only problem is that : the higher the angle is, the higher the force exerted on the tire is, the closer it is to the No grip zone.
That is why having a 2° slip angle on a fast bend is useless, since the faster you corner, the stronger the Gs will be. As opposite, you can acheive angles of 13° max with the XRG in a hairpin without losing much speed. (Because less speed means that you can have a higher angle).
Then comes the tricky part : when should you get your tires to slide ?
Because obviously, carrying a slide from the entry point to the exit point is useless.
You have to progressively make your tires slide :
- After the entry point, you get a slight oversteer by increasing the angle of your rearies.
- Then, untill the apex, your fronties will progressively increase the angle : this will make you get a constant angle for your tires and for your car untill the apex.
- Right after the apex, your fronties will still be in the Slip Zone, while your rearies will rapidly but progressively regain grip : you'll start to understeer.
- Just before the exit point (when you should touch the outside rumble pad), all of your tires will have grip again.
This is the only way when a "slide" (not a "drift") can acheive speeds that are "slightly" faster than just gripping your car.
Of course, once again, you don't see that move in official races because :
- they have slick tires with a very slip zone
- since it uses more of your tires, it creates more heat, which means to change tires more often.
However, in rallyes, slalom or uphill races with cars having other tires than slicks, this is quite common. Just take the example of Jean Ragnotti (a Renault rallye driver back in the 80's), who was sliding a lot of asphalt corners in a FWD car because back in that days, the tires did not have really impressive specs.
However, D1GP style will always be slower than grip, no matter what. However, you don't really see the cars sliding in most of the case, because having a 0°-3° slide isn't noticeable when you spectate (while it is when you drive). And those 3° can make the difference, while 53°, if they are pleasant to see, do not get the car far
You both are right, but you should also stop considering the track itself, but the tire compound as well
Tires, and you obviously know it (but let me tell it for other people as well
), do not behave like this :Grip | No Grip
----------------------------------------------->
Force exerted on the tire.
It behaves more like this :
Grip | Slip Zone | No Grip
------------------------------------------------>
Force exerted on the tire.
The "Slip Zone" (please tell the appropriate term since I do not know the official one) is a zone where your tire will have some slip angle, without losing its grip. Pro racing drivers, for timed runs or qualifications, tend to drive on that limit zone which separates when the tires stick to the road, and when the tires do not stick to the road.
In the slip zone, since you do not lose too much traction (and then propulsive power for the driven wheel) and since you have less resistance with the road (the tires slide a bit), it is overally faster than grip driving.
This is why some cars seem to be "flying" around the corners, because the drivers tend to stay on the Slip Zone.
To drive in that zone, you have to make all of your tires stay in it. If you only have 3 (let's say the outside front for a RWD car is the most likely to be grippy at the exit), you will create a resistance, which will not only slow the car down, but also create a mismatch between the slip angle of your front tires and the angle of your rear tires, making the rear travel faster than at the equilibrium, and tunring the "slide" (4 wheels in the slip zone), into a "drift" (Outside front grips, inside front is in the Slip Zone, Rears are in the no grip zone). If it is only your rear outside tire that is "below" the Slip Zone, in the Grip part, you will break the slip angle of our fronts, which will result in a joyful and awkward understeer.
Of course, the "width" of the Slip Zone depends on the compounds. Race slicks are designed to increase the width of the grip zone toward the right limit of the Slip Zone. It is all the more seeable on soft compounds slicks : either you have traction, either you have not. On R4 (the hardest, for instance), you see that you can lightly slide your tire without causing too much heat, in a very thin slip zone, and yet be fast.
On treaded tires, the hardest the compound is, the larger the Slip Zone will be --> this makes the Normal compound easier to get to a good slide in the slip zone.
The hardest bit to understand is that being fast in the Slip Zone has got nothing to do with the angle. It is about the force exerted on a tire, so basically, untill you reach the peak force where the Slip Zone turns itself to the No Grip zone, you can virtually acheive whatever angle you like (may I remind that I speak about slip angle, and not angle of the car in comparison to the line).
The only problem is that : the higher the angle is, the higher the force exerted on the tire is, the closer it is to the No grip zone.
That is why having a 2° slip angle on a fast bend is useless, since the faster you corner, the stronger the Gs will be. As opposite, you can acheive angles of 13° max with the XRG in a hairpin without losing much speed. (Because less speed means that you can have a higher angle).
Then comes the tricky part : when should you get your tires to slide ?
Because obviously, carrying a slide from the entry point to the exit point is useless.
You have to progressively make your tires slide :
- After the entry point, you get a slight oversteer by increasing the angle of your rearies.
- Then, untill the apex, your fronties will progressively increase the angle : this will make you get a constant angle for your tires and for your car untill the apex.
- Right after the apex, your fronties will still be in the Slip Zone, while your rearies will rapidly but progressively regain grip : you'll start to understeer.
- Just before the exit point (when you should touch the outside rumble pad), all of your tires will have grip again.
This is the only way when a "slide" (not a "drift") can acheive speeds that are "slightly" faster than just gripping your car.
Of course, once again, you don't see that move in official races because :
- they have slick tires with a very slip zone
- since it uses more of your tires, it creates more heat, which means to change tires more often.
However, in rallyes, slalom or uphill races with cars having other tires than slicks, this is quite common. Just take the example of Jean Ragnotti (a Renault rallye driver back in the 80's), who was sliding a lot of asphalt corners in a FWD car because back in that days, the tires did not have really impressive specs.
However, D1GP style will always be slower than grip, no matter what. However, you don't really see the cars sliding in most of the case, because having a 0°-3° slide isn't noticeable when you spectate (while it is when you drive). And those 3° can make the difference, while 53°, if they are pleasant to see, do not get the car far
Obviously some slip angle is required - lateral force isn't possible without it. It's impossible to 100% grip (i.e. no slip or slip angle at all). Balancing the car on the point at which all of it's tyres are making as much grip as possible (i.e. using the peak of the slip angle curve for each tyre (or at least pair of tyres on a common axle) all the way through the turn. This, in turn, means that at no point will the rear wheels be doing naff all.
Gratz Tristan, you managed to sum up in a few lines what I struggled to in some paragraphs
Of course, having the rear going crazy is useless, and it is too bad that people mistake having slip angle with this when they assume : Drift can be as fast as grip.
Can you please light my bulb (without any meaning except the electrical one
) ? What are the factors that determine the optimal slip angle of a tire, apart from its compound and the nature of the track?How does the width, sidewall length, pressure, diameter of the tire affect this?
Thank you for answering, as I have no clue.
In some aspects even the tyre manufacturers don't really know!! But I think we can talk in general terms perhaps?
Wider tyres typically have a much narrower window of optimum slip.
Taller tyres (higher sidewalls) generally have a larger window.
Pressure - don't know really. Within the limits of safe pressures I don't think it makes much difference really - it has more effect on roll, spring rates and damping than on the slip curve of a tyre.
Diameter - again, no idea.
Why these occur is a matter for someone trained in the ways of tyres. Todd Watson, amongst others on this forum, are pretty good at that sort of thing.
If you are interested, then maybe you'd like to look at this tyre data from Avon I got a year or two ago. No that much data in there really - a lot of it is repeated, but you might be able to learn something or other
http://www.lfsforum.net/attach ... id=42364&d=1194622770
Wider tyres typically have a much narrower window of optimum slip.
Taller tyres (higher sidewalls) generally have a larger window.
Pressure - don't know really. Within the limits of safe pressures I don't think it makes much difference really - it has more effect on roll, spring rates and damping than on the slip curve of a tyre.
Diameter - again, no idea.
Why these occur is a matter for someone trained in the ways of tyres. Todd Watson, amongst others on this forum, are pretty good at that sort of thing.
If you are interested, then maybe you'd like to look at this tyre data from Avon I got a year or two ago. No that much data in there really - a lot of it is repeated, but you might be able to learn something or other
http://www.lfsforum.net/attach ... id=42364&d=1194622770Thanks for the answers !
I am not a very fast racer, but I am pretty interested in car dynamics, and I like gathering as many information on this topic as I can (I'll be running in a student go-kart 24 hours race in may 2010, and since my team will know basically nothing except what the steering wheel, accelerator and brake do, having as much info as I can might help them to train them better).
I don't have time to look at your link now, since I am in the US, and I have to go at a thanksgiving dinner (which I don't know anything about, tbh ), but I'll check it as soon as I get back
I am not a very fast racer, but I am pretty interested in car dynamics, and I like gathering as many information on this topic as I can (I'll be running in a student go-kart 24 hours race in may 2010, and since my team will know basically nothing except what the steering wheel, accelerator and brake do, having as much info as I can might help them to train them better
).I don't have time to look at your link now, since I am in the US, and I have to go at a thanksgiving dinner (which I don't know anything about, tbh
), but I'll check it as soon as I get back nah, they do it because it's the fastest way around the corner. when they try to go straight in gripping they end up understeering and having poor exit speed.
Really we should look at the reason why i made this point, and it was because people were saying that the grip you lose when you break traction instantly tells us that drift will be slower. My point is if you're not using 100% of the rear grip, then why do you need 100% grip.
You may have less grip at the rear, but it is being used in a more efficient manner.
lol please tell me you're not serious are you? The reason why locked diffs are preferably is because when feathering the throttle the diff doesn't shift going from acceleration to decceleration. The understeer caused from locked or 2 way diffs is only present when the tyres havnt' broken traction, once the traction is broken the diff doesnt contribute to any understeer until you grip back up. The entry understeer is a bi-product, but any decent drifter will overcome it with a decent initiation and they wont see the bi-product again until after they have finished drifting.
Well, get the best drifter in LFS to upload a drift hotlap and lets see how close it is to the WR.
I'll admit I do drifting, I like using H-shifter and listen to music and get sideways for fun, but in no way is it faster or better than racing.
Sorry, your terminology really is pissing me off. It's not called "gripping". Using oversteer as an advantage in a race IS NOT drifting. Drifting is a sport where participants are judged based on style, how much smoke they make, and stuff like that. If a driver in a race chooses to use oversteer to their advantage, it is false to say "oh rally drivers drift corners sometimes". No. They're not drifting a corner. They are oversteering, but not drifting. If they were drifting then they would be getting points for sliding. But they aren't. Therefore it isn't drifting. That's like saying that if I pass someone on the highway, I must be racing them.
That is what I was trying to say earlier.
For your first paragraph : maybe because using 90% of the available traction is better than using only 30% ? Just my guess...
For your second paragraph : seting up cars is about balance. In a RWD, you have a lot of grip at the rear and, personnally, I use setups with wheel set up to understeer, while the ARB of the car are meant to oversteer. In that case, my rear wheels have traction, and I don't sacrifice my cornering power. So in a well set up car, sliding is not the bi-product of less grip to the rear, it is induced by the driver.
For your third paragraph, drifters don't use locked diff, they use high-locking LSD. And yes, when you release the throttle, you will have understeer, like you will have oversteer when you apply it. If you couple this with both front and rear suspension having the same damping settings, you will increase even more this effect (understeer while releasing gas, oversteer with pushing it). Add a shot of ARB set up you feel comfortable with, and you have a good drift setup.
What I mean is that, if the differential did not do anything about the understeer when the wheels are sliding, it means that your suspension setup isn't balanced with the diff : suspension for ultra-oversteer off-gas will result in a conflict between the sprung mass (the chassis) wanting to oversteer, and the unsprung mass (wheels) wanting to reduce the oversteer. And since the sprung mass is heavier, its inertia will win and you will have a long spin (180° while travelling in a straight line).
If your car is set up the other way : suspension (off gas understeer), diff (off gas oversteer with a low coast preload), then your car won't spin because of its inertia, it will just spin where it is now and do more than 180° because the wheels won't stop the oversteer of a car.
My point being : even when you are drifting, the diff on coast is very important. Drifting is not like having NO grip at all : there is still friction between the road and the car, otherwise you wouldn't hear the tires screaming... There is still friction, but just a slight little bit (5%, this is why your tires heat up). And if there is friction, than the coast setting of the LSD is as much important as the power setting.
I have no idea what you just wrote but I’m 95% sure it has nothing to do with my point.
Locked diffs and the popular 2way mechanical LSD work in very similar ways, I din’s see much point getting into technicalities. I was comparing it to something like a 1.5way which is popular for a lot of racers which isn't "locked" on decal unlike a locked or 2 way diff.
I'm not real sure what the rest of the post about, but it looked like if anything u were agreeing with some of my points.
There's drifting then there's drifting.
Drifting can be considered a technique or an even something you use to describe an action. Drifting is also a sport.
Unfortunately these days you can't mention the word drift without conjuring up scenes from F&F Tokyo Drift in people's heads, but what I’m actually talking about is the motion of a car "drifting", nothing to do with the developed sport.
I know people often get on the defensive in these topics, but it's important to remember that all I’m saying is I think it's possible for drift to be faster than grip, in theory at least. Whether that be overcoming poor setup. poor conditions etc etc. I would argue that it's already proved in rally to an extent.
There are so many factors that make it not the case in practice, but I think it's good to theorise some times, something I think people struggle to do, maybe be a bit more open mind to possibilities.
Prove it then FFS.
did the part about theory and practice go over your head, or did u just not read my post at all?
Please don't be condescendent. I was not with you, so please do not with me.
Thanks.
Now that it is said, my post was explaining to you WHY a high locking differential was still effective even when "drifting" (high angle, low traction). So it was an answer to your post in which you clearly said : "the off-gas understeer isn't wanted on purpose, since it only happens when the tires grip the road and not while the tires are skidding". You seem to be a logical person which can hold a reasonable flow of thought, so I bet you understand now what I was posting.
____
Also.
The locked diff and a LSD works on very different ways. A locked diff means either a welded open diff (so that the wheels always spin at the same speed), or simply no differential at all (which will have the same effect as in my previous parenthesis).
As opposed to, a 2-way clutch pack LSD means that the wheels will lock at the same amount on power and on coast but not always. A CPLSD is meant to "activate" itself after it has sensed a torque mismatch between the both wheels (which is symbolized by the preload clutches inside the differential). The more preload there is, the less torque mismatch you will need to reach the critical value of torque mismatch at which the wheels start locking each other. Which is already very different and more complex than a standard locked diff. If it behaved the same, you would have a poor turn in, while the 2-way is meant to have stability in turning, without sacrificing much turn-in power (in sense of ability).
A 1.5-way CPLSD is a differential which will lock the wheels on coast, but, generally, half of the locking value of the locking on power. If, when you apply throttle and there is a torque mismatch (understand : one wheel starts spinning), the differentials locks itself at 100% (both wheels turn at the same speed), when decelerating and cornering, if one wheel starts skidding, the diff will lock at 50% (the opposed wheel will spin at half the speed of the skidding wheel). This means less stability, but better turn-in. It is a compromise, and it is generally up to the driver or the mechanic to arbitrate between both of them.
_____
"Drifting" literally means : "to deviate gently from a direction".
I agree with you about the deviation of the initial definition, but since you say people tend to be allergic to the actual meaning of drift, let's move over, and call the racing technique with an another name (which I called sliding in my previous posts).
We are not close-minded to your thoughts, and it is good that at least someone can think over the publicly accepted meaning of drift. However, we are in gentlemen, and stating our thoughts as well, which may interefere with yours.
When you want us to be open-minded, you don't seem to realize that some of us here are (tristancliffe, me, etc). Because we accept your theory, and we answer it with arguements. Being close-minded would be not to hear it, or saying that it's BS and don't say why (which is exetremely frustrating, I reckon). Openmindedness do not mean by any chances : accepting a theory without confronting it with facts.
Plus, we explain you in a very calm and soft manner why your theory is not complete (not wrong, not complete). So there is no need to get aggressive or qualify us as close minded, when it is obviously the case that we do our best not to be.
Drift vs Grip
(205 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG