I've just read this article and it raises a couple of really interesting questions that the European members should be able to answer.


Less than third of Irish plan to vote for EU treaty: poll

14 April 2008, 12:24 CET


(DUBLIN) - Less than a third of Irish people plan to vote for the new European Union treaty in a crunch June 12 referendum, although the vast majority remain undecided, a new poll showed Monday.
The survey, published in the Irish Sun newspaper, found 28 percent have decided to vote "Yes", 12 percent will vote "No" and 60 percent are still to make up their minds.
The referendum will be closely watched across the 27-nation bloc: Ireland is the only EU member state holding a vote, and rejection could in theory stymie the treaty.
In a similar poll last December on the new EU treaty -- which replaces an EU constitution rejected in 2005 -- 22 percent said they would vote "Yes" and 6 percent said they would vote "No" with 72 percent undecided.
The Lisbon treaty was agreed in December 2007 amid much fanfare in the Portuguese capital and aims to prevent decision-making gridlock in the expanding bloc.
An Irish "No" vote in the referendum could topple the blueprint which replaces a European Constitution that was torpedoed by voters in referendums in France and the Netherlands in 2005.
In June 2001 Ireland sent shockwaves through the bloc when it rejected the EU's Nice Treaty on institutional reform and enlargement. That decision was reversed in another referendum in October 2002.
Prime Minister Bertie Ahern announced this month that he will stand down on May 6 to clear his name over claims of financial impropriety, in a move which observers say should draw some fire from the EU "No" campaign.
Few people apparently know what the new treaty means: only six percent fully understand the Lisbon Treaty, while 25 percent had no understanding and 40 percent had very little understanding, the poll said.
The newspaper, which headlines its report "We haven't got a clue", says it is "simply incredible" that so many people don't understand the treaty and, as a consequence, don't know how they will vote.
The pollster interviewed 1,001 adults by telephone between April 7 and 9.



Ok, my questions are,


Only ONE european nation is voting on this, Ireland, and only 6% of them understand it.


What exactly are the rest of you letting yourselves in for WITHOUT voting ?


Why aren't you insisting on a vote ?.


Does anyone actually know that this will over-rule YOUR countries constitution ?


The following is a list of what the Lisbon treaty changes.


1. It establishes a legally new European Union in the constitutional form of a supranational European State.
2. It empowers this new European Union to act as a State vis-a-vis other States and its own citizens.
3. It makes us all citizens of this new European Union.
4. To hide the enormity of the change, the same name – European Union – will be kept while the Lisbon Treaty changes fundamentally the legal and constitutional nature of the Union.
5. It creates a Union Parliament for the Union's new citizens.
6. It creates a Cabinet Government of the new Union.
7. It creates a new Union political President.
8. It creates a civil rights code for the new Union's citizens.
9. It makes national Parliaments subordinate to the new Union.
10. It gives the new Union self-empowerment powers.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2773

And you guy's don't want to vote on this ?

EU stuff is boring. It's the fault of the media i think - noone knows what's going on, while indeed it's rather important.
But that's why noone votes. Because noone tells them what it's about, noone knows anything about it, so they let the politicians decide for them. Which under these circumstances is a good thing imo. Otherwise nothing would get done.
Sometimes there's some protesting politician who then starts to claim that the people should vote because it's important. But the people don't know anything about it, so he wants to let "ignorant" people decide on important things.. hmm not good.
Couple of years ago it went like that here in holland. The vote failed because noone knew anything about it and all they heard was negative propaganda from the protesting politician. It delayed EU community progression by a couple of years. Hurray.

I don't mind that i don't have to vote. But I do think people should get more involved and it's the job of the media to pick that up. Then hopefully people will at some point be able to make proper decisions on these matters.
But it's hard. People just don't really feel european over here - they're more into their own nation, so they don't think the EU is a priority.

I agree it's boring BUT this is really making European nations the same as US states.


"As most States only recognise that one can have a single citizenship, henceforth it is one's Union citizenship which will be regarded by other countries as primary and superior to one's national citizenship.
Although we will be given rights as EU citizens, we should not forget that as real citizens of the new European Union we also owe it the normal citizens' duty of obedience to its laws and loyalty to its authority, which will be a higher authority than that of our national States and constitutions.
Member States retain their national constitutions, but they are subordinate to the new Union Constitution. As such they will no longer be constitutions of sovereign States, just as the various local states of the USA retain their constitutions although they are subordinate to the Federal US Constitution."

There won't really be much point in local politics as it will be controlled by Brussels.
This would be fine if that is what the member states actually want, no more Britain, France, Netherlands, Germany etc, only one European state who's legislation has precedence over local legislation.

I'd certainly want to vote on that !

well, yeah reform! I frankly don't see a problem there. I don't think the EU constitution is going to limit us in any way. It's just something you need if you want to form a bigger alliance, otherwise every country will make their own rules and you're never gonna get a properly working cooperation that way.
Ministers will stay ministers - they'll just have another 'boss'. Maybe they'll be called differently in the future.
The big question to me is, will the people at the top do a good job?

You're seeing the "no more UK, france, etc" a bit grim i think. They will always remain their own countries (well called states perhaps) with their own culture and flag. Nothing's gonna change that.

btw, I should say that I've felt more of a EU citizen (actually world citizen) than just a Dutch citizen for a while now though, so I don't mind all this very much. I have no fear of losing identity or so. In the end what really matters are the day to day things and the people and living environment around you. That won't change. And from a business POV, the EU _is_ good. It makes trade a lot easier and as such cheaper. It already has. And I love that I can use the same currency in multiple countries.
I'm sure there are loads of other people who will not agree with me on this though.

Whilst I'm not a European, well, I can get a Brit passport but I've chosen not to, I'm looking at this from a New Zealand point of view.

It's a common discussion that we should join with Australia, however we have very strong feelings of national identity, ( & generally have a strong competitive relationship with Australia) and every time this is discussed here then it is voted down by 80+% against because we have no wish to become another Australian State.

I have no problem with trade agreements, indeed we have just become the first western nation to sign a free trade agreement with China.

I do however take issue with signing away your national identity and legislative rights without people even getting the right to express their view.

I fail to see what advantages there are to signing away a countries rights to define its own political and social direction and allowing that to be set by a faceless group of euro MP's.

And as for how well they'll do, how do europeans feel about Tony Blair and their Euro MPs controlling their countries.

Opinions please !

There doesn´t seem to be much change. Isn´t the EU constitution superior to local constitutions even now? And if it isn´t and it becomes after the treaty, what´s the big deal. It´s not as if the EU constitution is much different from the local one´s.

I like the fact you can cross borders without sitting in lines for 10 hours(Polish - Lithuanian border anyone), that you can use the same currency in most of countrys(although not here yet) and that a small country like mine has some economical and overall security from belonging in EU instead of being left alone. Especially with Russia going nuts lately.

I agree with Victor that putting something like that on a referendum isn´t going to produce any results. The EU is confusing, I don´t fully understand it and there are so many members. If every country made a referendum on everything, then there´s bound to be atleast one in which the negative propaganda would make people vote "no" and that would be enough to kill it off.

Also noone is going to loose their national identidy if they don´t want to. Everyone will keep their own language, education system, national symbols, etc. The EU is mainly an economic union. And if you use your countrys economy policy as source for your national identidy, then... you´re weird.

And if the things would indeed turn tits up then every member can always use this new opportunity in the treaty:
"The treaty introduces an exit clause for members wanting to withdraw from the Union."

I would vote "yes" btw.

If the UK got a referendum the Europhobic Daily Mail loons would cause the mad, the bad and the sad to turn up and vote no.

Quote from duke_toaster :

If the UK got a referendum the Europhobic Daily Mail loons would cause the mad, the bad and the sad to turn up and vote no.

Give me a vote and it would be an emphatic NO

And so would the greater part of the UK - All three main parties know this, and this is why this bunch of crooks incompetents and fools, (90% of our politicians) are trying to gag us, and drag us kicking and screaming through the back door into an even bigger lunatic assylum.

We have quite enough dealing with our own home grown political ego's without having to deal with more unelected unrepresentative faceless brainless criminals who ride the gravy train to work each day in the name of European cooperation and development.

My local authority is bent incompetent and inefficient, my national government is pretty much the same on a larger scale, so why would I vote yes to a further tier of **** you - I'm all right jacks.

All I see, is me paying more and more for less and less.

germany pays most of the eu budget btw... its really just a ploy to finally take france and the uk without them even noticing

Quote from Shotglass :

germany pays most of the eu budget btw... its really just a ploy to finally take france and the uk without them even noticing

Oh no, we've noticed. That's why we're all doing our level best to make the place a complete and utter shit hole.

And just before the official handover, we'll all be emigrating to New Zealand. You'll see

Interesting...

Being Irish i didn't even know there was a vote coming up...
I do read the papers and watch/listen to the news, but it just doesn't seem to be advertised at all over here.
I knew of the "Lisburn Treaty" but honestly didn't know what it was about until this morning.
Doesn't seem to be anything i'd be against to be honest.
If one good thing did come of it it may force Britain to change to the Euro! It's a real pain in the ass having to change money every time i go to Northern Ireland. Having said that the Sterling is sooo weak at the moment it's great (for anyone not British).

Historically I've not really been either pro or anti Europe, but recently the British govt has made some deals with the US that are simply not in keeping with our human rights (extradition to the US on demand without hearing, etc). So I'm PRO the treaty simply because our own government can't be trusted to look after its own nationals. The treaty would theoretically give Brits protection against the british govt.

Quote from Polyracer :

My local authority is bent incompetent and inefficient, my national government is pretty much the same on a larger scale, so why would I vote yes to a further tier of **** you - I'm all right jacks.

That's pretty much the only reason I'm not keen on joining the EU. I'm not concerned with national identity, immigration, currency, agricultural policy or any of that petty nonsense, but I am starkly aware that I'm not getting value for money from my current government - the latest scandal over ministers expenses is just the icing on the cake - so I don't want to start employing even more representatives who'll need homes in Brussels, homes in London and homes in their home constituencies.

Quote from Shotglass :

germany pays most of the eu budget btw... its really just a ploy to finally take france and the uk without them even noticing

Quote from SamH :

Historically I've not really been either pro or anti Europe, but recently the British govt has made some deals with the US that are simply not in keeping with our human rights (extradition to the US on demand without hearing, etc). So I'm PRO the treaty simply because our own government can't be trusted to look after its own nationals. The treaty would theoretically give Brits protection against the british govt.

I was thinking the same. The post-9/11 atrocities have made me all too aware of what you get for putting your lot in with the USA, so I'd rather have closer relationships with Europe instead. The big issue, though (as this referendum in Ireland demonstrates), is that it looks difficult to get anything done in the European parliament. Too many partisan voices with veto powers. Much like the UN, I suppose.

Quote from SamH :

Historically I've not really been either pro or anti Europe, but recently the British govt has made some deals with the US that are simply not in keeping with our human rights (extradition to the US on demand without hearing, etc). So I'm PRO the treaty simply because our own government can't be trusted to look after its own nationals. The treaty would theoretically give Brits protection against the british govt.

Sorry Sam but you do realise that Tony will be your new European Fuhrer don't you.

Wasn't he the one doing the deals with the US in the first place ?

And what I've see of the EU in action doesn't fill me with confidence that they're going to suddenly be able to provide enlightened government.

In my view your far more likely to get the whole concentration camp Britain exported throughout the rest of Europe, and without anyone getting any say in whats happening.

Your new leadership are the ones creating this without giving anyone ( except Ireland ) the right to vote on it.

Not a great sign of whats to come..........

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Sorry Sam but you do realise that Tony will be your new European Fuhrer don't you.

Well.. no, actually, he won't. I thought you understood the treaty. What the treaty does for the Brits is give us somewhere to go and bitch when we get a bum deal from our own government - something that our government is increasingly doing, using lots of rhetoric like they do. It introduces a watchdog over the British government, in the European Parliament.. and if the alternative is no watchdog over the British government, I'll opt for the watchdog please.

Blair for new European President.
http://www.bettingpro.com/cate ... etting--Blair-Cut-to-2-1/
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/f ... eb08/eupresidentblair.htm
http://www.euractiv.com/en/opi ... ty/article-171401?Ref=RSS
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3054779,00.html


The rights of member states to make laws.

"The Treaty also sets out the principle of the primacy of the laws of the new Union over the laws of its Member States (Declaration 27). The new EU makes the majority of laws for its Member States each year and under the Lisbon Treaty the new Union, which will replace the European Community, gets further power to make laws or take decisions by qualified majority vote in relation to some 68 new policy areas or matters where Member States currently have a veto."

I'd suggest a careful read of the above paragraph...........

If there is any way at all that this will reduce the number of representatives needed to govern me, I'm all for it. Especially if most of my laws are decided by a centralised authority and Westminster becomes nothing more than a tourist attraction.

I think if any part of the world is adequately prepared for a union like this it's Europe, as it consists mostly of established industrialised nations with similar politics and solid diplomatic relations.

I'm sure we could incorporate the Italians into that somehow.

I'm all for it. Anything that make Europe closer to a real Union is a good move in my eyes. I'm a citizen of Europe anyway, I don't really identify myself with any specific country.

trust me you don't want your countries being states controlled by a federal government. Racer X Im sure you can fill me in on the details as this is the first I've heard of this. Do Europeans pay taxes to the state AND the union? If there is a disaster in portugal, will the other states pay for it? Does one state have the power to tax more than the others? Will there be no more borders? Will this take all the money from all the states and put them in one pot? Will states be able to make different laws than other states?

I may have more questions, this seems interesting if far fetched. The only problem I see is people may lose their national identity.

The biggest problem in the US is bureaucracy, people are being paid to do nothing except make damn sure that nothing gets done. I see this EU thing as just being more politicians muddying the waters.

Quote from Gil07 :

I'm a citizen of Europe anyway, I don't really identify myself with any specific country.

In Europe (ie the mainland) borders have changed a lot over the years - and travelling between countries is very easy.

In the UK that doesn't happen as it's an Island - mainland Britain is a definate islane, and so most UK citizens see themselves as part of the UK, not as part of Europe.

(I'm sure i'm getting the words "UK", "England", "Britain", "Great Britain" etc convoluted).

Quote from flymike91 :

The only problem I see is people may lose their national identity.

Europe's borders - western Europe anyway - have been established for a long time. National identity is something which is diluted over time anyway through immigration, foreign travel and so on. I don't see this being a big deal. They'll still each have a football team and that's all you really need.

Quote from flymike91 :

The biggest problem in the US is bureaucracy

It's the same everywhere and is only likely to get worse either way.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

indeed we have just become the first western nation to sign a free trade agreement with China.

sorry for the double post but please drive out all the American businesses while you're there, we're done with the communists causing so much socio-political stress and would like to become self sufficient
oh please answer the above questions too

Quote from thisnameistaken :

They'll still each have a football team and that's all you really need.

ah yes theres nothing that builds a nation more than winning a world cup (probably why the uk is so confused what england scotland and wales are) except maybe making fun of the french

Speaking of the French.

Do Europeans pay taxes to the state AND the union?
As far as I know people only pay to the "state" (we call them countrys) and each country pays some to the union. Which is good for us. Germany and other big rich countrys pay for most of the EU budget and the smaller countrys cash in. I think we´ve got more money from EU than we´ve given them.

If there is a disaster in portugal, will the other states pay for it?
Not all of it. In the new treaty there is a point that in case of a disaster other countrys should help but I don´t know to which extent. The suffering country will pay for most of it. Overall I think it´s a good thing.

Does one state have the power to tax more than the others?

As far as I know, yes. The taxes in Sweden or Denmark for example are much higher than here(but they get good health care, free education, good infrastructure, big pensions, etc...)
Will there be no more borders?
If a country wishes to join the Schengen Agreement then there will be no borders. Some countrys have refused to do so, like UK.
Will this take all the money from all the states and put them in one pot?
Not all, some.
Will states be able to make different laws than other states?
If the law won´t contradict the EU laws then yes. Atleast that´s how it is now. Maybe this treaty will change something.

The only problem I see is people may lose their national identity.
I seriously doubt that. We survived 50 years under the soviet rule. Had to live through russification and thousands of immigrants and didn´t lose our national identity.
The biggest problem in the US is bureaucracy, people are being paid to do nothing except make damn sure that nothing gets done.
The bureaucracy is indeed a problem.[/quote]