Hallo,

I always wonder how people manage to race a car with brakes which would be banned on public road, because they can't lock the tyres. I nearly always have to put brakes on the setups before i start driving.

In real cars, espacially with downforce cars, the brakes have fixed strengt. You cannot set your brakes to be less powerfull, because irl you always want to have the strongest brakes possible. irl on race-cars you can set the amount of cooling of the brakes, but brake-heat is not yet in lfs. Also brake-balance an always be adjusted irl just as in lfs.

So a formule 1 car is not able to lock his tyres at topsppeed because the grip is too high but as speed goes down, the driver must lift the brake to avoid locking the tyres because downforce is also getting lower as speed decreases.

In lfs, people make sure they dont have to lift the pedal and set max brake power so low, the tyres will never or be very difficult to lock up. This takes away an important part of racing, being able to just not lock your tyres and in effect use a bad abs system.

My suggestion, make max brake force per wheel a fixed value for every car. Only brake-balance can be changed. Or at least increase the minimum values for brake power/wheel a lot please.

If you decrease braking force, doesn't that increase your braking distance? And that would mean poorer lap times.

Is a driver choosing to set less braking force really that big a deal? The more distance you're slowing down, the longer you take to travel the same distance. So yes, lap times become slower.

Surely the better option is to continue allowing drivers to set the brakes the way they like them to fit their driving style. If they're slower because they want softer brakes, I say let them.

Indeed. Theoretically the best braking force is as much as possible, not vice versa (However, that would be difficult to master as the wheels lock easier). So, if someone wants to increase their braking distance by using less braking force, let them. There is no universal best value for braking force it purely depends on driving skills, and because everyone has different driving skills, braking force should be changable in the future also.

Oh, and not-pedal players (I mean keyboard and mouse) would go mad if they can't change braking force, because unlike pedals, buttons are either on or off (However, analog force feedback keyboard would be pretty fun. Maybe in the future japanese invents that one...), and it means that you lock your tires more easily.

But wouldn't those who want to floor the brake do it by re-calibrating their brake axis or button rates(?) then?

The thing is you can too easily tune the brake force so that you can brake maximum safe in knowledge you won't lock up. Usually chosen at the corner where repeated hard braking will save you time, even if that means less than perfect (i.e. more real?) braking elsewhere.

Bit of a cheat in a way. I used to use it SO1 MRT back in S1. My ECCI pedals aren't accurate enough (being slightly pressure sensitive rather than 100% travel sensitive), so I end up having to increase the brake force in 99% of setups.

If I had a brake pedal that worked a bit like a car's brake pedal then I'd run stonking max braking force. I don't, though. And neither do 99% of you dirty scumbags, so finding the limit on the brakes is too hard and that's why I (and you dirty scumbags) set the braking force to something more sensible.

More importantly (IMO) the brake bias should work properly, and not strip both wheels of torque. Wheel makes "max brake torque" rather misleading.

I agree - It's currently way to easy (and tempting) to setup brake force such that you effectively have Anti-lock brakes. Actually this is the only reason for it being there so far as I can tell.

It seems to me that much the same way cars have a particular displacement engine that can't be changed; the brakes should have a maximum force that cannot be modified. Yeah I know, intake restriction, but restrictors are used in real life to make class divisions more competitive. There is no way to tune braking force in this manner and varying brake temperatures would make it more or less impossible anyhow.

+1 Good call.

The one thing that will stand in the way for people who don't run lockable pressures later is the brake fade. When LFS develops to that point, having less than lockable brakes means that the brake force will go down even more as they heat up. So braking distance would increase even more. This would kill the people on keyboard.

I think braking force should be locked at a reasonable level, so that pressing the brake to the floor will lock them, but unfortunately for keyboard users, it would make it harder to play.

I drove with a cheap Nexxtech pedal set for almost a year and a half, and I was able to adapt myself to use the pedals well, even with the shakey readings.

-1 some of us use KB, and it is not unrealistic to simulate pressing a brake pedal lightly!

Quote from wark :

-1 some of us use KB, and it is not unrealistic to simulate pressing a brake pedal lightly!

You can do that with the button control rate - just like we do for hand-brake and such. Tapping + Control rate = light braking. Being able to press and hold a button such that you get perfect braking everytime is very closely related to the "win" button.

EDIT: I agree that this would suck for Keyboard/Mouse players; BUT! Even if you made it such that adjustable braking force only applied to keyboard-input I bet you'd find that wheel/pedal users would bind a button/key to brake - Perfect braking is absurdly over-powered.

Quote from GobLox :

You can do that with the button control rate - just like we do for hand-brake and such. Tapping + Control rate = light braking. Being able to press and hold a button such that you get perfect braking everytime is very closely related to the "win" button.

Agreed, it woulden't be fair at all.

Realisim is the goal of this sim, I'm sure the only reason things haven't been limmited yet is because alot of tweaking is still being done.

Quote from GobLox :

You can do that with the button control rate - just like we do for hand-brake and such. Tapping + Control rate = light braking. Being able to press and hold a button such that you get perfect braking everytime is very closely related to the "win" button.

Any button control rate under 10 is self-injury.

KB will never be better than pedals. It doesn't need to be nerfed, and that's all this is a proposal for.

Anyone with pedals has the inherent ability to dial in exactly the right amount of pressure, whenever. The right amount is almost always different.

If people are wasting the money they spent on pedals and always flooring them, it's to their disadvantage.

Quote from GobLox :

You can do that with the button control rate - just like we do for hand-brake and such. Tapping + Control rate = light braking. Being able to press and hold a button such that you get perfect braking everytime is very closely related to the "win" button.

EDIT: I agree that this would suck for Keyboard/Mouse players; BUT! Even if you made it such that adjustable braking force only applied to keyboard-input I bet you'd find that wheel/pedal users would bind a button/key to brake - Perfect braking is absurdly over-powered.

You don't get perfect braking though. It's a compromise at best. If you adjust the braking force for high speed braking, you'll lock up for slower corners. If you adjust for slower corners, you'll lock up everywhere.

In some cars you need to have high button control rates, such as in FBM, because autoclutch doesn't work for it. You always end up having to flat-shift, which requires high button control rates otherwise your revs don't drop fast enough. Using manual clutching with a keyboard is just too slow.

Threshold braking with pedals is a lot easier than adjusting braking force, which is as it should be. So don't nerf the braking force adjustment, because it offers no advantage to keyboard/mouse users.

If a wheel/pedal user can't drive better than keyboard/mouse users for whatever reason, it's their lack of skill which is the real problem.

Quote from wark :

Any button control rate under 10 is self-injury.

KB will never be better than pedals. It doesn't need to be nerfed, and that's all this is a proposal for.

Anyone with pedals has the inherent ability to dial in exactly the right amount of pressure, whenever. The right amount is almost always different.

If people are wasting the money they spent on pedals and always flooring them, it's to their disadvantage.

I would argue that flooring a pedal that is calibrated to give just the right amount of braking force for a warm tire is a big advantage and very nearly everyone utilizes it. I don't recall the last time I had a setup sent to me that had braking force set such that the driver could lockup the tires under normal conditions. When you are going into a corner, avoiding traffic, possibly changing gears and dealing with all the other aspects of driving, it's an advantage to be able to smash a pedal (EDIT: Or button) without thinking any more about it and getting maximum stopping power; which is why they invented ABS and Traction control.

I don't have any animosity to Keyboard players and the thought did not even occur to me until you mentioned it. However, this is a sim; I think it's safe to assume the majority of players use a wheel. As far as realism is concerned this is currently one of the biggest offenders - It's just ridiculous.

I do this on most of my setups (this being setting my brake force relatively low)

I have it so it usually just starts locking up one of the tires, usually a front, in the slowest corner(s) on the track.

There is no way, other than audibly and visually to know that the tire is locked up. Yes, the car will react, but since the best we have is ffb through the wheel...unless you have a simulator at home...and to visually react, and adjust the brake pedal. At that point, you've already locked up the brakes for a good amount of time, and probably already need to turn in.

Now, I'm 100% for the advancement of realism in this game. I'm sure I'd be able to cope with the changes if this were implemented, and I'd be on my merry way enjoying the game. I'd probably be much slower however, as my brake pedal is just a piece of metal with a big ass spring behind it.

When this game gets so good at simulating a real car that you can't react to it anymore without having to guess, I think there will be a real problem. The pedal feel is hugely important in a real car...without that, I'm sure people would either underbrake cautiously, or overbrake constantly on a track. If you take out the ability to set the brake pressure, it will be a constant guessing game on how hard to push the pedal.

I might just be babbling incoherently as I am very...very tired, but I hope someone can make sense of this.

This is a game that is directed at the player with a steering wheel. The average steering wheel is likely a DFP or MOMO in price range, with minimal tricks and gadgets. Flappy pedals, average to meh ffb (but pretty much the best we got :shrug, and no clutch. Already the game is someone passing that demographic (I couldn't be happier with my g25 though ).

Keyboard technique to overcome this:

press tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap

If used with the correct rates that should allow a near constant brake force at whatever level of 'pressure' you like.

Of course, it'll break your keyboard a tiny bit quicker, but you can't have everything.

LFS still has brake help, doesn't it? Or has that been removed along with throttle help too?

Yes, it is harder to tell when you are locking up without help of your vestibular system. I usually know if the car is getting squirrelly I probably have a couple locked up. Often I am about to begin a turn-in so if I turn the wheel and go straight I know it's time to let off the pedal a bit.

Also, keep in mind, the brake pedal doesn't really offer any feedback when a wheel locks up - not in any passenger car I've been in. Maybe in a formula?

The upside of this is that yes, it will be harder! Churning out those perfect lap times within a few hundredths of the last one will be harder and mistakes will be made when a driver is overwhelmed or distracted. Just like real life. Driving aids like ABS, Traction Control, and whatever you want to call our highly adjustable brake-force scheme in LFS are good for lap times but not for more interesting racing. Your going to see pressured lead cars lock for a split second mid-turn go slightly wide and lose a place. That's priceless and, I think, shouldn’t be lost to this, possibly unintentional, driving aid.

I agree max brake force should be fixed. As it has already been explained, it will affect everybody, not just KB users. Threshold braking and bravery with the brakes is a huge huge huge part of racing IRL.

Quote from spanks :

There is no way, other than audibly and visually to know that the tire is locked up. Yes, the car will react, but since the best we have is ffb through the wheel...unless you have a simulator at home...

You're already doing everything audibly and visually. Predicting when a tire is going to lock isn't impossible. If you find yourself locking, back your foot up a bit, and remember how hard you're pushing for the next go around. This isn't terribly different than in real life. You don't get "G force warning" in real life either.

I think a lot of players (in general, not specifically to this issue) are confusing their perception of what driving is like, with the reality of actually doing it.

Quote from Mattesa :

I agree max brake force should be fixed. As it has already been explained, it will affect everybody, not just KB users. Threshold braking and bravery with the brakes is a huge huge huge part of racing IRL.


You're already doing everything audibly and visually. Predicting when a tire is going to lock isn't impossible. If you find yourself locking, back your foot up a bit, and remember how hard you're pushing for the next go around. This isn't terribly different than in real life. You don't get "G force warning" in real life either.

I think a lot of players (in general, not specifically to this issue) are confusing their perception of what driving is like, with the reality of actually doing it.

I've raced 7 years of my life so far 5 in a kart, 2.5 in a purpose built drag car.

G-force warning = seat of your pants feel I suppose, which is invaluable...and the biggest thing missing from a computer game

I know the feeling of what the car is doing is deadened in a road car, but when I raced my kart I was in tune with every bit and piece on that thing. No suspension made you feel the kart so well. The brake pedal offered tons of feedback. The critical point was when the pedal got real hard...and then how much harder you decided to push on it. Max brake pressure was as hard as you could push the pedal before bending something and braking it, or your leg was maxed out. With a non-responsive brake pedal you get no feeling in pressure change or any of that.

Also, when you lock up the tires or spin the tires you instantly feel a change...its almost like you just got lighter. Its those kinds of feelings that you lose on a computer, and leave you guessing on what to do.

And once again I'm kinda just babbling off topic about a point I made last night...and its not even that great of one

You do realise Spanks that there is no feel in any brake pedal - they don't work like that. Any feel you get is from the g-forces resulting from pedal pressure, not through the pedal. A brake pad with 'lots of feel' means that it reacts to pressure change more readily than other pads, and you feel that change through the accelerations, again NOT through the pedal.

You'll feel even less in a cable brake system, which I think a lot of karts are (even if only partly).

Quote from tristancliffe :

You do realise Spanks that there is no feel in any brake pedal - they don't work like that.

Unless you have ABS, and it turns on while braking. Then you feel something.

That's not 'feel', but the hydraulic pressure being artificially altered. Yes, you feel it, but it's not 'feel'.