Yes I didnt recieve any official CD like promised, and I think neither did other people that ordered the same package.

Quote from YUGO45 :

Let me just add that LFS could be so much more fun with some more add ons like people are saying here.

And LFS will be much more fun in the future, so just relax!

Quote from YUGO45 :

Yes I didnt recieve any official CD like promised, and I think neither did other people that ordered the same package.

As it was written in your order, you'll receive a CD with S2 Full, not Alpha. That's what you ordered and that's what you'll get. You werent ripped of, your money isnt gone, there was always warning that the CDs will be produced, when S2 Full is there. S2 Full isnt there yet, so relax.

Quote from YUGO45 :

Let me then refrese the question.

I bought my licence with a "in box" CD from live-for-speed.de. Now, that was some months ago. I asked them why is the delay of the CD? The answer was plane and simple: "LFS isnt finished, its still ALPHA, we cannot send you an unfinished product. I can burn you a cd if you want with the ALPHA version". Whats wrong with this sentence?

Dont get me wrong, I really like LFS and dont have anything against the game. Just dont like getting "ript off". I guess it will be "published" when S3 comes out, which i definitly wont buy "in a box".

If I understood it correctly they are offering to send you a CD which includes S2 alpha FOR FREE! And when S2 full is out, they will send the official CD too. This is great offer. Now, where can I buy Racing Legends alpha, burned CD is ok by me


It's just sad that these threads always get this f**king negative thing going on. Do people read their posts before pressing that send button. Where is the constructive criticism, which is still wanted by the devs?

please read what i wrote down in my post(s), then comment.

"ripped" ....... wasnt meaning it was a SCAM, thats why i put " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " !
@Hyperactive

Well, if you like bending over, then cary on .......... or just download the original games and "burn" them.

-I am not replying to this thread, since you people understood me the wrong way.-

Quote from Speed Soro :

And dont't tell me LFS is not a business, cause it is, ok? You sell it, don't you? And we bought it, don't we?

I'm not a business consultant, and I don't know, and have no rights to decide your business for you.

Just listen to your customers...

peace

Well, Speed Soro, you are not a business consultant for sure... Many companies are formed not for money but to financially support the owners so that they can do as a job what they like... As seems to be the case here!

I just want to add that the CD being selled on live-for-speed.de isn't an official Live for Speed product, but an third-party "package". The devs have allowed me to produce such a package, but are not responsible for it. So if you have any questions concerning the CD, just drop me a PM or e-mail.

At the time of the S2 alpha release I had to decide whether to put an unfinished version on the CD or not. I decided to wait for the final S2 release and that's why no-one received a CD yet. I can assure you, that all the people who have pre-ordered will receive their CD right after the next big update, meaning that the major physic flaws are fixed.

Quote from axus :

If this annoys you, wait till all the threads start popping up early next year, saying that LFS was meant to be released in 2005 according to the videos. I agree fully with what you say though.

Don't get me started just yet

Seriously, in a way I understand (most?) people want full S2 now but I cannot understand the "we want this - we want that - and we want it now" tone in some of the posts here You should realise such attitude doesn't get you anywhere.

@ Falkowski83
Don't misunderstand me, I'm pro consumer rights and I do agree some (most?) license agreements are confusing and just too long to read for most people but this certainly cannot be said about the LFS agreement presented to you before paying S2. The fact that there is a check button or not doesn't really change the end-users' ability to read the agreement. In the end it's your choice whether you read it or not.

Anyway, I would say, we're all in the same boat, waiting for S2. In the end it's going to get released. Writing a 10 page thread about when the day will come is not gonna accelerate the process ;-)

Wim

I have all but stopped playing LFS, stopped playing sims for that matter...
Havent posted here for much longer.

I still come back and check on things every so often for two reasons;

1. LFS is a great game, even though the product will NEVER satisfy my A.D.D.

2. I think the devs are the model for what i wish i had - my own boss to work on what i love, as it pleases me, while making a living doing it.

I have ABSOLUTLY NO DOUBT that many of you that desire and politic for "if i were in control i'd do this" would find themselves one of two ways after 2 years of working on the project;

1. you would end up just like the current devs -happy and casual about what they do and how they do it.

2. a managment type with $$ in their eyes -highering employees, marketing, and pressuring the workers to produce as fast as possible. (EA)

Unfortunatly, most that go with the second route find quickly that the "market" and that business model is brutal and,, evil lol! And whats worse is that they usually fail...

Wether the devs were making LFS or frozen yogart, i wish the biggest thorn in my career was dealing with people who gripe on a forum.
(which you could just choose to ignore if it suited you )
You guys have the right idea imho,, not LFS alone but life/career in general -i commend you!

sorry for getting back to the first page of this thread which seams a little off topic right now .. but anyway ...

Quote from luzik :

I am big opensource fan but:
1. Scawen, Eric and Victor must eat, as far as i know they life from LFS, and with opensource and whatever licence you will be very dificult to keep promise that they will get same money as now.
2. I even can't imagin how to control such big project, how to control best quality of new tracks/cars ...and prevent from forks (this is vary bad for comunity)

I don't know what's the problem everyone seams to have with opensource .. you might not want to put it under a GPL-like license where everyone can fork and distribute as they want.. but imagine if everyone could patch LFS to see how it fits.. post it on the board for testing .. and if a few think it improves LFS the devs can see how (and if) they can use this patch... Currently the only way for the community to give input is by making verbal suggestions without even knowing how they would effect the gameplay/feeling in LFS ..
(the license would need to make sure that authors who modify the code need to resign from their rights on those changes which need to be transferred to the LFS devs if they decide to use it)
OpenSource does not necessarily mean that you give it away for free .. just that you provide the source code to customers

and i guess there are enough skilled people in the LFS community who have the passion to dig into the code and manage to make valuable additions.. i don't think there would be too much work necessary on the LFS devs- side

of course it might make it easier for crackers to circumvent the registration .. but this already exists (at least for S1 .. since i bought S2 afterwards i never looked for a S2 crack) .. so even with the source it wouldn't be any different .. and .. the market of LFS is at internet-multiplayer and competetive leagues (afaik ?) .. and both can be controlled by the LFS devs themselves .. i don't think an illegal fork would have much success in driving away revenue ..

the only other problem with publishing the source might be to opening some implementation secrets to competitors .. well .. i have not much clue about car physics .. and altough i'm quite sure there are some very nice tricks and beautiful algorimths designed by the LFS devs in it.. i can't imagine that any major LFS competitor wasting time and money to learn and understand the implementation of LFS to use them illegally in their own products.. i guess it would take weeks or months to find something which can just be used that easily .. and if .. imagine the reactions if some employee of EA or whatever would publish they needed steal code from another game .. that would be just insane ..

anyway . i think it would quite fit into the unusual development process of LFS .. using techniques and idiologies managers in big (game) companies wouldn't even consider in their nightmares ..

well .. the devs will find their way to have the most fun producing LFS .. (and still make a living out of it).. it's quite impressive what they did so far .. so no doubt that they know how to plan,code,design,organise and publish/distribute their product best (and created a loyal active community around it) ..

Quote from AndroidXP :

So, the main thing you "mock" about is (and that is probably only because you as a lawyer notice such things) that there's no "I have read and agree to the terms" checkbox that prevents clicking the next button before it's checked?

Do you really think that changes anything, or makes anyone read the terms before? Actually, the chance that the LFS "Agreement" is read is way higher than most of the installer-included EULAs simply because it's much shorter. All those "consumer protecting" tricks like checkboxes or having to scroll down the EULA does nothing. The average user isn't slowed down by such measurements at all, actually he's expecting that there's a checkbox somewhere on the EULA screen so he can proceed to the next step within tenths of seconds.

Or am I misunderstanding you?

Personally I think all this consumer protection is important against companies that actively try to fool people into false assumptions to harvest their money. I can nowhere see that with LFS.

Dude, wait, please. Lol. Things are reeeeaaallly far away from what I was intended to say. When I talked about the consumer rights, yes, it could relate to me, as I am a consumer. But in this thread, I wasn't intended to flame the developers or anything!!! Actually, I'm not even sure how this consumer debate started and how or why I started to talk about the "click-wrap" contracts, but hey, whatever.

So, what I wrote wasn't anything directly related to LFS, was related to all products or software that we buy on the internet. So, don't get that as an offense aimed right on Scawen's face. LOL

Hey, c'mon, now I just hope we can enjoy LFS S2 Full in something like 5 months. That would be awesome.

[ ]'s

</backpedal>

Quote from Falkowski83 :

But now we've come across an important issue: the Simbin product is a finished product. It can be full of bugs, physics errors, but they release it as a finished product. Yes, I can "demand" updates and the physics I find right, but they can just state that they already delivered me the finished thing.

So you are saying that you would rather want a "finished" product full of bugs, wrong physics, bad custommer support, no further patches just because it says on the box "FINISHED"?? illepall You are a happy customer now?? What if S2 alpha was released with the CD box, printed manual, etc, and is registred as finished? Would you ask for updates, patches, etc? NO! because again you would be "happy customer" with a Finished product in your hand, although you would know and see that there is room for improvement, but you wouldn't ask for the patches, and improvements because you have a "FULL" game, and you are very "happy"..
We get to play the alpha version that is better then anything out there that is "finished". And you moan about that?? You would rather just look at the screenshots and trailers, waiting for the FULL version, or would you play the game while it is near finished?? I choose the second option..
I payed the lousy 36 euros for an excellent product, and I KNOW that i would get the FULL version FOR FREE!! later.. Now, this is a bad thing??! illepall God people, how can you be so ungreatfull??

Quote from Falkowski83 :

Hey, c'mon, now I just hope we can enjoy LFS S2 Full in something like 5 months. That would be awesome.

[ ]'s

Heh, ok then

Ppl, It's time to shut up, and let the devs continue their work instead of reading this useless discussion.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Actually, as far as I know, you are allowed to pre-pay for LFS S2, with the disclaimer that they don't know when it will be released, or what features it may or may not have.

As a subsequent 'gesture' we are allowed to download, unlock and use the Alpha version of the software we pre-paid for, again on the understanding that it isn't complete, there might be bugs (which is why it was released in some ways), and that we just have to sit back and wait for any updates as and when they come.

To be fair Tristan, where does it say S2 might be buggy and is not complete? In an old news item tucked away at the bottom of the main page at lfs.net. There's nothing in the "read before you buy", license agreement, content, or how to buy sections. Sure it's sometimes referred to as "S2 ALPHA P", but that doesn't mean anything in itself.......Street Fighter Alpha 3 anyone?

Quote from sinbad :

"S2 ALPHA P", but that doesn't mean anything in itself

Must be just me then. To me "alpha" specifically means a project in the development life cycle where it has been deemed so incomplete that it is yet to get to the beta stage (which is when most non-finished products are made available for the first time I think). To me alpha screams out "incomplete, not ready, very possibly buggy, use at your own risk".

Quote from Boris Lozac :

So you are saying that you would rather want a "finished" product full of bugs, wrong physics, bad custommer support, no further patches just because it says on the box "FINISHED"?? illepall You are a happy customer now?? What if S2 alpha was released with the CD box, printed manual, etc, and is registred as finished? Would you ask for updates, patches, etc? NO! because again you would be "happy customer" with a Finished product in your hand, although you would know and see that there is room for improvement, but you wouldn't ask for the patches, and improvements because you have a "FULL" game, and you are very "happy"..
We get to play the alpha version that is better then anything out there that is "finished". And you moan about that?? You would rather just look at the screenshots and trailers, waiting for the FULL version, or would you play the game while it is near finished?? I choose the second option..
I payed the lousy 36 euros for an excellent product, and I KNOW that i would get the FULL version FOR FREE!! later.. Now, this is a bad thing??! illepall God people, how can you be so ungreatfull??

Aaaaargh!!!!

I give up. Lol. Nobody seems to understand my toughts.

I AM NOT BASHING THE GAME. I UNDERSTAND WHAT ALPHA MEANS. I LIKE THE WAY THE GAME IS DEVELOPED AND I FULLY UNDERSTAND IT. And I won't talk anymore about the costumer thing. If you didn't understand what I meant, sorry, I won't explain it for the 10.927.465.839.278.162.739 time.

Now I'll play Pac-Man on my Atari, so feel free yo do anything you'd like (including flaming this post, if you want to).

Before S2 Alpha was released, "everyone" was posting threads about "we need progress reports, S2 release, cheaper fuel, cleaner environment, peace in the world...etc". As soon as the Devs released S2 Alpha, the forums were full of praise, everybody was suddenly happy. And now it happens all over again - "we need this, we need that...", and I am sure everyone will shut up as soon as S2 Final will be available. It is so predictable, I guess the Devs have to be already enjoying this :-).

Quote from Falkowski83 :

Aaaaargh!!!!

I give up. Lol. Nobody seems to understand my toughts.

I AM NOT BASHING THE GAME. I UNDERSTAND WHAT ALPHA MEANS. I LIKE THE WAY THE GAME IS DEVELOPED AND I FULLY UNDERSTAND IT. And I won't talk anymore about the costumer thing. If you didn't understand what I meant, sorry, I won't explain it for the 10.927.465.839.278.162.739 time.

Now I'll play Pac-Man on my Atari, so feel free yo do anything you'd like (including flaming this post, if you want to).

No man.. I wasn't talking directly to you, i meant generally, the complaining people.. Your posts were Ok, and constructive, i only Quoted the part of your post and was talking to "YOU" as YOU people..

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

Must be just me then. To me "alpha" specifically means a project in the development life cycle where it has been deemed so incomplete that it is yet to get to the beta stage (which is when most non-finished products are made available for the first time I think). To me alpha screams out "incomplete, not ready, very possibly buggy, use at your own risk".

The dictionary definition of "alpha" is not : "incomplete, not ready, very possibly buggy, use at your own risk". That's all I'm saying.
I didn't mention the "Street Fighter 3 Alpha" game by accident. That game is very much finished and 100% complete. "Alpha" is part of its name and does not suggest that it is buggy or incomplete.

Without explaining that "Alpha" is the name for an early stage of development and that the product is incomplete, "Alpha" doesn't really mean anything in the case of "S2 ALPHA P".

But.... I guess most "gamers" know what beta-testing is and so on, so for most people it's clear enough.

Yes I see your point.. and I agree, it should be explained. you say po-tay-to, I say po-tah-to..

As an game programmer I can just support Scawen's words... games take really lot of time to be created.

No matter how much the competition does push, there is certain amount of work to be done on LFS, and there is certain time window, in which it is possible to finish that work.

If competition is able to release 5 sims during that period, than so it will be. Either that, or Scawen will have to change the development team, but as he indicates, he's not willing to do that.

Actually I don't see any harm in having other sims released. So what? If you are bored by LFS, do something else. Play GTR2, GTR3, GTR4, etc... till the new version of LFS arrives.
Than download and see what's new, maybe it will be horribly lacking behind the newests GTRx.y.z, maybe it will be 1 lap ahead of it.

Scawen did choose this model of development and his goal, and it's his responsibility to fullfill his goals in a way he finds best. (i.e. the final release of LFS should be very good sim ... no matter when it will be released. That's how I understand their goal with LFS)


I think LFS is not (and can not) competing with big developers, so it's logical SimBin can release more games in the same period of time.
Actually I wonder how long SimBin will last, I don't think they can sell enough of GTR/GTL to stay alive with current huge dev team for long. Maybe I'm wrong about sales figures, and depends a lot on the cost of FIA licences and the effectivity of publisher (10tacle), but publishers and developers are ranting all the time about how poor the sales are, and I'm ranting all the time about how wild did the whole developing budget stuff go in recent years, no wonder sales are "poor", if you need to earn $20mil+ back to cover budget.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

No man.. I wasn't talking directly to you, i meant generally, the complaining people.. Your posts were Ok, and constructive, i only Quoted the part of your post and was talking to "YOU" as YOU people..

I have to disagree with one thing. I don't really think my posts were constructive to the development of the game. I believe I made myself clear in the points I wanted to make. But my goal wasn't saying "the FZR needs this or that or something else", because I am not a professional driver, so I can't really argue physics that much (although when something is just too off you know, because it doesn't feel right).

But thanks for explaining.

Quote from YUGO45 :

@Hyperactive

Well, if you like bending over, then cary on .......... or just download the original games and "burn" them.

-I am not replying to this thread, since you people understood me the wrong way.-

The part of my post which said things about these threads getting always the same negative aspect was not towards you, soryy if it seemed like I was trying to bash you

But if they will send you a S2 cd when S2 is finished, then In my mind you have no problems. And I was ready to pay for that burned Racing Legends cd, but only if it was legal But it was a joke