Also, I find it funny that we all want to move to a 3 pedal setup, when in real life, more and more cars have clutchless manuals, that seem to work exactly like LFS with 2 pedals. My buddy autoX's his GTI, and is not competing with exact same cars that have the DSG.
To a certain extent there's no way to get past this without using multiple monitors or some other sort of "surround view". Having to press a button to look out the side window blows no matter how you slice it. However; in the in-car view the a-pillar can sometimes block your view, just like in a real car. That is an important distinction to me in the same way that playing a flight sim is unrealistic when you don't have the cockpit drawn. In real life you have a very limited view and cannot see through your legs or through the instrument panel, but these are things you can do in game. I personally feel that the cockpit view is the most realistic, even though it's obviously not reality (no peripheral vision, no sense of gravity, etc).
That all depends. I run a projector (~55" widescreen) and ~105* field of view. With these settings I'm able to approximate the view out of a car very closely. Gauges are properly sized, walls actually pose a threat, and the sense of speed is dramatic. Of course, I still have limitations (I can't see next to me without "looking" with a button, I still have no g-forces) but when racing down the track it is very immersive and doesn't feel the slightest bit like "looking through a mail slot" as you say.
Scavier would be aiding and abetting - and if both the plantiff, the server hosting company and the team were based in the UK ...
But the road cars that LFS simulates have normal manual transmissions and three pedals. I don't think anyone here is discussing the GTR cars or the F1 car which wouldn't need manual clutching or manual blipping.
I mostly drive the road cars like the XRG, XRT, LX4, and FZ5 so those are the ones I'm concerned with. Also, many people have requested new cars which would use a clutch and normal manual gearbox (NASCAR, Aussie V8, Sprint Car, etc). It's important to many of us that these cars operate like they would in the real world.
If we get and inproved Clutch and Transmission simulation then I am all for a total hardcore mode. Right now though the way the clutch, transmission and shifting feel is tough to judge and awakword for me. In nKPro I use a button clutch because it accualy fells right. LFS is still not to that point yet where the sim helps make using the clutch intunitive like nKPro.
Utter Rubbish. Please take some law course, or at least engage your brain, before suggesting that adding an option is aiding and abetting the discrimination of disabled people. My arse talks more sense than that after a particularly hot curry.
That burns just thinking about it.
Since servers are not public (they are privately operated and not for the general public) I doubt that any of the "laws" that have been quoted would even apply. If they would I'd be interested to see what happens when some blind guy sues because he isn't given a driver's license or allowed to be an air traffic controller.
how about a sim that those that arent loaded can afford to use? as in not requiring 300 dollar wheels
OMG, the fools are out in force today.
Can you run LFS now? Great, so why do you think the addition of a hardcore mode (generally only for SOME leagues) would change that.
Please engage brain, if it's your turn for the cell today, before punching the keyboard. Kthxbye
I'm all for this sort of thing. Still on two-pedals here, but that will change at some point I'm sure.
Only thing I'd worry about is how easy it is to rig up mechanical aids, or external programs which would replicate the devices which are enforced, without having to use them.
From clutch finger-triggers to H-pattern gearboxes all to easily operated by a sequential mechanism with a little imagination.
The clutch is the important thing though, but I just don't see how it can be checked. Anybody can rig up an analogue clutch on their wheel if they want to badly enough and they have a joystick or something spare.
Only thing I'd worry about is how easy it is to rig up mechanical aids, or external programs which would replicate the devices which are enforced, without having to use them.
From clutch finger-triggers to H-pattern gearboxes all to easily operated by a sequential mechanism with a little imagination.
The clutch is the important thing though, but I just don't see how it can be checked. Anybody can rig up an analogue clutch on their wheel if they want to badly enough and they have a joystick or something spare.
and by the way it is not 300 Dollars, but 20 Dollars for any old Wheel you get at ebay that has intact pedals, + 60 Dollar for a good H-Shifter like the Act Labs one or other good Shifter like that one from SimGear Lightning.
So it is actually about 80 Dollars that you would need - if you dont got any old Wheel somewhere, because if you would have, you would only need the H- Shifter, and for 60 Dollars you get a better H-Shifter than you would get with the G25.
For 100 Dollar you would get the Act Labs 2006 Shifter, and after 150 Dollar it gets even better quality with the SimGear. For 300 Dollars it gets High End with the FREX stuff and others for a H-Shifter alone. But it is not 300 Dollar for 3 PEdals and a H-Shifter.
So it is actually about 80 Dollars that you would need - if you dont got any old Wheel somewhere, because if you would have, you would only need the H- Shifter, and for 60 Dollars you get a better H-Shifter than you would get with the G25.
For 100 Dollar you would get the Act Labs 2006 Shifter, and after 150 Dollar it gets even better quality with the SimGear. For 300 Dollars it gets High End with the FREX stuff and others for a H-Shifter alone. But it is not 300 Dollar for 3 PEdals and a H-Shifter.
You can still play without a wheel. It's not required. But some of us would like to use wheels and 3 pedals and race against the other people who also use them. That doesn't stop you from racing and it doesn't stop you from running your own server which you can cater to your own needs and desires.
There's a way around just about any restriction you can think of. The question is not whether or not someone can get around the restriction but rather if it's worth the time, effort, and risk. Given the fact that you can spectate other drivers in LFS and can see their pedal movements, it probably wouldn't be too hard to catch most cheaters given a little time. The main issue is to be able to detect and lock out people who aren't using an analog (axis) clutch. That alone would deter the casual person from attempting to bypass the restrictions.
Writing software to do something software can never do, creating the issue illustrated above. What a fantastic improvement to LFS.
Huh? LFS already knows what you've selected. it's either
1) auto clutch
2) button clutch
3) axis clutch
If clutch != 3 then "sorry, axis clutch required".
Seems pretty straight forward to me. It's no different than the auto blip and auto cut which can already be monitored using InSim. All that's needed is for Scawen to either report the clutch type being used or to give servers restrictions for these things so that we don't have to use InSim to do it.
But axis clutch could be anything from clutch pedal on the floor to software controlled button. While the first one is the real thing, the latter is the faster and easier-to-drive thing. And what about macros and scripts that do the clutching for you?
I can believe that - with 5000+ posts verbal diarrhoea is plainly your idiom. However, your arse is of no interest and I do not wish your repellent, and ultimately vacuous, bluster to obscure what would otherwise be a lively and interesting debate.
So I will just reiterate that my main purpose in raising these issues was to remove some of the assumptions about what a "hardcore mode" should be. I just don't see the view someone drives with as being in any way relevant, nor how one depresses the clutch - two pedals, three pedals, whatever.... a real life road car could be adapted similarly.
And its especially daft for anyone to spend time thinking of ways to police this mode when its LFS's physical model of the clutch that is the problem in the first place!
False starts - I don't understand why LFS doesn;t have them as a matter of priority anyway
No shift s - GPL has had that option since its release. Again, why LFS doesn't have it, no idea.
Banning electronic aids - never had them on in the first place, so yep, I'll tick that box.
But don't even try to kid me that you're seriously going to spend development time creating software to root out people that don't have enough pedals on the floor
What you've selected does not need to equal or even be remotely similar to what you are using, the code is pointless. You will achieve exactly as much by running a league or a "club" with the restrictions you want.
@nihil: Just because you don't have such controls doesn't mean that the other guy(s) don't have such controls.
Why is it so hard to understand that the server option to "force" clutch pedals and H-pattern shifters (or one of them) is not to "root out" people. It is all about making a place for people to race with people with "pro" hardware.
It is mostly based on honesty, simply because, as filur said, you can't code up a system that would reliably detect such controls.
If there is a server where people to race using only "pro" controls, do you start moaning and whining because you don't have those "pro" controls and still want to get there? Oh, it is so discriminating because you have the right to get there but the admins won't allow you
Why is it so hard to understand that the server option to "force" clutch pedals and H-pattern shifters (or one of them) is not to "root out" people. It is all about making a place for people to race with people with "pro" hardware.
It is mostly based on honesty, simply because, as filur said, you can't code up a system that would reliably detect such controls.
If there is a server where people to race using only "pro" controls, do you start moaning and whining because you don't have those "pro" controls and still want to get there? Oh, it is so discriminating because you have the right to get there but the admins won't allow you
On these things we agree. Scawen needs to totally redo the clutch model and implement stalling. I'm sure it's on his to-do list. No shift-S should be in the next incompatible patch (the dedicated server already has the option, but the clients don't have the code yet). False starts is something I think we'd all like to see and something that I also expect to see in the somewhat near future. Kegetys even made an app to allow for false starts but never released it publicly.
Why not? Several users such as myself want to see it and it shouldn't be hard to do. All of the other driving aids are already reported by InSim. Whether or not axis clutch or shifter are selected shouldn't be hard to add.
Its not about what I have and I'm not engaging with this topic from some green-eyed fit of jealousy...
Its just that I happen to think that the standard of competition is very important and that this standard has very little to do with what technology you use to engage with the software.
You're right - I don't understand the degree of fetishism required to desire such a option as you describe, but I wouldn't moan about the existence of such a server. However, this is a discussion forum and within this space you can't expect to go unchallenged on what I believe are assumptions about what exactly constitutes fair competition (not to mention what we might or might not consider to be the necessary components of 'simulation').
Hardcore mode, HA HA!
With the exception of false start, thats how i play. So whats so hardcore about that?
No what we really need for HARDCORE, is a dash to your car where you have to press the brake pedal and the accelerator in the correct order to propel your blokey to get into his motor. Once in the motor you need to unlock the cars steering lock (if its a road car) then fire it up!
With the exception of false start, thats how i play. So whats so hardcore about that?
No what we really need for HARDCORE, is a dash to your car where you have to press the brake pedal and the accelerator in the correct order to propel your blokey to get into his motor. Once in the motor you need to unlock the cars steering lock (if its a road car) then fire it up!
83 posts/ 1246 laps i hate maths and im not even gonna try.
...ehm
Remember the super ratio
LOL - we could have 100m sprints up the drag strip... marathons around Aston...
I have my own wishlist of additions actually... I'd suppress all chat into a dedicated spectator channel, disconnect the horn, and organise the server messages into a proper pitboard function.
A compromise on hardcore mode
(167 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG