I can't speak for you but I'm very glad that there aren't many servers open to all cars. Having all cars allowed is an open invitation for some idiot to ruin a great XRT race by crashing in front of you in a BF1 they can't control.
If all two dozen of us that have a G25 all defected to our own server you'd still have PLENTY of servers to choose from. Two pedal setups are still the majority by far.
This is pretty much true. I can shift nearly as fast using manual clutch and h-shifter as I can using auto-clutch and sequential on a DFP (not quite as fast, but pretty close). The big thing is that when shifting that fast it's very easy to make mistakes. One mistake can cost a lot of time. People using auto clutch don't make mistakes at all. They're infallible in this regard. THAT is where the big discrepancy lies. Auto-clutch needs to be a tad slower, but mostly the problem is that there is no risk of making a mistake when using auto-clutch.
edit: another problem is that LFS models compression braking really poorly. Using manual clutch is going to be a lot more difficult and slower if engine modeling ever requires proper blips on downshifts and heel/toeing. Right now you can easily downshift from any gear without worrying about matching revs or blowing up your engine.
This thread is so pointless.
Beyond duke_toasters original proposal, nothing is enforcable.
Get the right drivers and you have a virtual G25.
Connect outgauge to the right app and combined with the drivers you have yourself an automatic gearbox, WITH auto clutch emulated on an axis.
Whats that? You'll be able to tell if a driver is using emulation? Not if it's obfuscated with variable engage times and levels.
LFS will never be able to protect from this because if you put up a wall, some clever little sod WILL find a way around, over, under or just straight through.
If you build enough walls you'll start blocking out legitimate users while still not blocking out the ones you really want to stay out (DRM anyone?)
But hey, I've nothing against it. I reckon the more options the better but its ultimately pointless.
While I agree with you, I still think it's a worthy thing to do. I view it as akin to the little locks people put on their luggage. It doesn't stop a determined thief but it "keeps honest people honest". In the same way not allowing auto-clutch wouldn't stop determined cheaters but it would stop the casual player from using that driving aid. If you ever found out that someone was cheating they'd have no excuse because it would be quite obvious they had purposefully worked around the server limitation. A ban in LFS can last for a very, very long time and once a person gets a reputation as being a cheater they can find themselves most unwelcome in the community.
People want to be able to make a server for 3 pedal system users with H-shifters, right. To be fair, there should be an option to force "only" 2 pedal systems and lets not forget mouse and keyboard users. They want to have "fair" races too.
I have 6 buttons on the face of my Momo wheel. Guess I have an h-gate shifter, in LFS's eyes, so I can be in. No thoughts of missed shifts like what could happen with people with actual shifters. I have 2 paddles on my wheel and I'll use one for the clutch. Well, that takes care of the no autoclutch thing. So, how is this giving an even playing field when I can simulate a clutch and a shifter using the buttons on my wheel? The whole purpose is because folks think they are at a disadvantage when using a clutch and shifter. You'd still be at a disadvantage because the clutch and shifter can still be simulated with fool-proof useage of buttons. That is, no missing shifts because of the hardware you are capable of buying.
I agree that 3 pedals and a shifter is the way of the future. At $300 though, the way isn't here yet. It is a start, but until there is an affordable controller, it just isn't the way yet.
See, this makes me laugh with the priorities comment there. Many folks out there are just starting out in jobs, marriage, having children, etc, or are still under parental care themselves. If you make owning a G25 a priority, then I believe it is you who needs to be sorting those priorities out. $300 is A LOT of money to folks who are trying to feed a family, and this is the problem in society. The problem is with people so tied up in materialism, that they need to have both parents working so they can afford the unneccessary stuff in life. That drives the prices up so that folks who want to raise their own children are stuck with nothing because they can't afford anything or have just something that brings them a bit of pleasure in the time that they have to spend on themselves.
I already don't want to go back to two pedals. I use three pedals and no aids ALL THE TIME. I just want to be able to host a server where everyone else who feels the same way can come and play without having other drivers who are using aids spoil the race (spoil it by having an unfair advantage). It's easy to say "it's no big deal" when you're on the majority side of the fence. What if you were racing on a server where you had the XRG and everyone else got to use the XRT? You wouldn't feel the slightest bit of resentment that every other driver on the server has an advantage over you?
I drive a 3 pedal system with H pattern shifter and have done so for nearly 3 years now. I like the setup because for me it feels more natural to drive with.
All that said I dont care if the people I race use 2 pedals or not, about the only thing I do care about is button clutch, which should be removed or made to operate at the same speed as the auto clutch.
What I do care about is a good clean race with people that are aware of what is going on about them etc. Some keyboard, mouse and joystick drivers are cleaner than some wheel drivers so why isolate on hardware.
The main issue is makeing sure no driver aids so its a level playing field. (I don't count auto clutch as a driver aid in this respect)
I see hardcore mode as a way to separate noobs who will probably head or normal servers and those that want serious racing who will find the hardcore servers. A more simple take on CRC. It would act as CRC if a serious crash meant you has to miss the next race while your car was fixed because wreckers would not be able to keep doing a wreck->pit->wreck cycle
I've dealt with you before on these forums and you seem like an honest guy. If I were running a server that was forcing h-shifter and axis clutch would you join it and try to cheat the system? My guess is that most users would not. They would rather go elsewhere where they'd be more welcome. That takes care of 90% of people right there. As I said earlier, anyone who WOULD cheat the system risks a ban and a bad reputation on this forum and the servers. You get caught once and you have a bad reputation forever. That would probably be enough to discourage most people.
$300 is affordable. It's not cheap. It's not mass-market. But it is more than affordable when you compare the alternatives.
This has absolutely nothing to do with materialism. For all you know I live in a cardboard box with a PC and a steering wheel and nothing else. Everyone has priorities and this one just happens to be one of mine. I don't have a ton of other hobbies so when I get some spending money I use it on stuff like a wheel for playing sims on my PC. I'm not broke, but i'm not living in a mansion and driving a Mercedes either. $300 is not an insignificant amount of money to me but I knew that even at $300 I'll get more than my money's worth out of this wheel. It's not about how much you spend, it's about what you get for your dollar. The combined price of LFS and my wheel, divided by the number of hours I've used them would probably work out to be cheaper than renting DVDs for the same amount of time.
If you can't afford to buy a wheel and pedals I'm sorry. But, quite frankly, that's not my problem. If feeding your children is the reason that you can't afford a G25 then it seems that is one of the sacrafices that you chose to make when you had a family. The complaint that person X shouldn't have something because you can't afford to have it too is not a valid argument. Eventually three pedal setups and h-shifters will be the norm. Where will that leave you? You're going to have to eventually keep up or be left behind. The same thing will happen when S3 comes out. You'll either have to get a new PC or not play. You can complain that you can't afford a new PC until you're blue in the face, but that won't stop progress.
You know what I mean. I've been using clutch and h-shift for a couple of months (though not all that much driving time until Xmas vacation hit). I find myself still making quite a few mistakes. I'm sure most of it is because there's not much "feel" in the clutch and shifter compared to a real car. Also, LFS seems to require the clutch to be depressed all the way (or very nearly so) where you can half-stroke the clutch in a street car. I find that I make fewer mistakes when I shift very forcefully and deliberately, but I also shift slower that way and have to spend more time thinking about shifting rather than driving.
I'm sure it will all even out in the wash, but it would still be nice if it weren't a disadvantage at all.
I have been using a h-shifter a while now too (only two pedals though).
The main difference between you and me is that I accept that I might be a bit slower and I accept that I might miss-shift. In the end the difference is not big and after playing with it the difference is only going to be smaller. I still think that it should be everyones own choice if they want to be realistic or not.
Only the non-hardware related aids should be restricted in the hardcore mode.
Huh? How could one possibly worry about that in LFS? Realistically, the RB4, FXO and GTI should have some kind of TC. By this are you trying to say that the FZ50 should not have TC? Or are you trying to say that you worry LFS will one day become an arcade game?
If a car in LFS got TC, which shouldn't have it (say, an LX), people would soon be picketing outside of Scawen's house.
Use DXTweak to mod the clutch pedal travel. By default the clutch operation in LFS is for the full length of the travel and we all know this is not the case IRL.
I have mine setup so that only 1/3 of the travel works the clutch and this is located nearer the pedal in the full up position. This allows me to half-stroke, as you call it.
You will miss gears less often
I will post my DXTweak settings tonight when I get home if you want them.
Thankfully most people are honest people, and for one guy with wheel4hummers Attitude you get 100 drivers not cheating in that Mode with there Wheel buttons or running external programs... Whats speaks against this Option for the Host? Someone could be cheating his way on the Server? Huge Majority of drivers do never cheat.
btw alot of People do not have a G25 and use a third Pedal very cheap as you can take any other old PC Steering Wheel Pedal, and connect it. Thats just what I did. Didnt cost me a thing as I had a second Wheel from years ago and reused its Pedals
I don't see the point of further segregating the player base. The more frustrating options you have to restrict who can join your server, the less players you're going to see.
However, I would like to see a restriction on Shift+S pitting and most of the other options in the OP.
I've also suggested in the past an improvement to the way car resetting works, which I'll go through again here:
Basically, if you land on your roof or your side, after a few second delay your car slowly rolls back over, as if being pushed by marshalls. The advantages of this are that it means you don't just suddenly reappear somewhere on the track, and people around you know it's going to happen so can take appropriate evasive action. It also means if you roll at the front of the pack, everyone should be out of the way before you're righted again.
There should be no reset car at all in a hardcore mode. If you landd on the roof your race is over. You should be forced to spectate until the next race.
If LFS was to be truely realistic then we wouldn't need a clutch to change gear in the race cars. We also shouldn't need it to change up gears in the road cars either.
All we have to do is allow people with 2 pedals to use a button and not allow "instant clutch". Make it more gradual when the button is pushed.
I for one wont be changing to a 3 pedal setup for at least a year or 2. Although it wouldn't be ideal i'd use a button for a clutch to get me off the line and for down-changes in the road cars if i had to.
Other man's priority is to have fair races with expensive hardware. Other's priority is to have realistic driving experience with no matter hardware the rivals got.
So..Why can't we allow both? Why we want to prevent Cue-Ball for running his elitist server for those who have that money? I think, that if we did that, the masses would automatically move from those 'normal' servers towards 3 pedals and H-gates, when that kind of hardware will come more common and cheaper as somebody already predicted.
False starts and no shift s sound like good ideas to me. No aids is reasonable too, but the forced cockpit view is not only unenforceable, but based on the utterly fallacious argument that this particular view is somehow more 'real'.
If you consider looking through a letterbox with a camera lens 'real' then perhaps you only have one eye, but its more likely you have been seduced by the decorative quality of this particular graphic style.
This is no bad thing - I often use the cockpit view to aid in the sense of immersion when I'm driving, but having no ff on my wheel, I find the 'wheels only' view more useful in giving me feedback about the tyres (it also helps when the frame rate drops)
You are not driving a real car when driving LFS and perception is a very different, more complex thing than the 2d imagery we see on a computer screen. When I drive in RL, I do not 'see' the steering wheel unless I consciously look at it; the frame of a computer screen forces it into my line of sight in cockpit view (ditto for the dashboard), essentially rendering over half my screen redundant for much of the time.
In actual fact, what is often known as the 'arcade' view (slightly above and behind the car) is a much closer representation of the conceptual model we have in our head when driving in RL. It offers a much greater sense of spatial relationships in the virtual world, countering some of the handicaps of viewing the world on a two-dimensional screen. Its main drawback is that it counters the sense of immersion (suspension of disbelief) that we all crave.
Seems like some people feel strongly against allowing us a full Simulation - Hardcore Mode.
Even forced cockpit view, something totally normal for other Sims seems to be to much.
Others are afraid that Cue Balls Server running Simulation Mode Settings will split the LFS Community into half ? We better dont get another Track cause that splits up more than what were asking for.
With so much sentiments against a Simulation Hardcore Mode, maybe this Mode should be alot more configurable, perhaps Hardcore Mode could also allow Chase View drivers and the like, if it has to be to get this thing happen... but then make it configurable that 3 Pedals/no driving Aids user could still get Online Races in a full blown Simulation Mode.
The thing is that adding all these restrictions would require quite a bit of coding to be implemented, but they offer little or no gain, or even disadvantages. There is no way to make them fool proof too. I'd rather see more important stuff added to lfs instead.
First off, it is not normal, but an Option to have for the Host if he wants to run the Server like this... netkarPro has Cockpit view only, NASCAR Racing 4 up to NASCAR Racing 2003 have Forced Cockpit view (as an Online Option), I dont got GTR2 or rFactor, but they might have it too. Its a must have for a good Online Simulation.
We better dont get another Track cause that splits up more than what were asking for.