No, I didn't. But I think the way he said it still was stupid. He could have at least compared two specific cars. Instead of making generalized statements. Like, the fuel economy of large vehicles sucks no-matter who the manufacturer is. And most classes of cars, compact, mid-size, etc. have fairly simmilar fuel economy. It's not like American cars (when compared to their Asian/European counterparts) really use that much more fuel.
No, I didn't. But I think the way he said it still was stupid. He could have at least compared two specific cars. Instead of making generalized statements. Like, the fuel economy of large vehicles sucks no-matter who the manufacturer is. And most classes of cars, compact, mid-size, etc. have fairly simmilar fuel economy. It's not like American cars (when compared to their Asian/European counterparts) really use that much more fuel.
S14 was being facetious. There was no need to be more precise, IMO. His point was valid and well made, and would have been equally so whether or not he used fictional vehicle figures. We all got his point. I understand, also, the point that you're making. It may also be valid, but it's a tad too pedantic for me. 
[edit] FTR, I thought my Pontiac Grand AM's gas mileage was perfectly acceptable. Pretty damn good, in fact. I also bought a Mitsubishi Montero, and that thing's gas mileage was utter pants. The Grand AM drove fairly similarly to a European GM car and wasn't over-sized at all. In fact I liked that car.
[edit] FTR, I thought my Pontiac Grand AM's gas mileage was perfectly acceptable. Pretty damn good, in fact. I also bought a Mitsubishi Montero, and that thing's gas mileage was utter pants. The Grand AM drove fairly similarly to a European GM car and wasn't over-sized at all. In fact I liked that car.
Well, if instead of saying this:
He said:
"that can produce the same, if not more power with less capacity and get more miles to per gallon"
Then I wouldn't have commented on it.
Exactly.. which is why I felt you were being pedantic.
The US and imperial gallons are different, so Brits who are looking at US MPG figures should divide those by 3.78 and then multiply by 4.46. The Pontiac's 26mpg in the US works out at 30.6mpg in the UK. Much better than it first appears.
The US and imperial gallons are different, so Brits who are looking at US MPG figures should divide those by 3.78 and then multiply by 4.46. The Pontiac's 26mpg in the US works out at 30.6mpg in the UK. Much better than it first appears.
No one wants to buy American cars?
Why does this always come up? If no one wants to buy American cars, then why are parking lots packed full of American cars in...... America!!!
Yes, they were stupid not planning ahead, but they have been making a killing the past 10 years selling $40k trucks and SUVs. That is why they were not producing small economy cars. Gas was $1.25-1.50-1.75 per gallon. 90% of their market was buying $40k full size trucks and SUVs for the past 10+ years. The other 10 percent was buying Malibus and Impalas. I've been making parts for GM cars for the past 13 years, I know which ones they were selling.
The only reason the Cavalier POS sold was because in comparison to a $40,000 pickup truck, it sold for about $8000. Some people bought the POS.
Honda and Toyota have GM stomped to the ground on economy and small cars. GM chose to go with a market that Honda and Toyota couldn't compete with, boat hauling, horse trailer hauling, construction supply hauling big trucks. Why do people over here want big trucks? Because one buddy of mine has a 4000 pound trailer he hauls stuff on. Another buddy of mine has an 8000 pound camper he hauls around every weekend. Yet another one hauls around a 6000 pound boat, and another, 10,000 pound horse trailer. People want a truck to haul stuff around where I live. They need the torque, yet drivability, of a V8 to pull this stuff. As the prices of trucks rose, they drove the trucks on their daily commutes because who can afford insurance and payments on 3 vehicles (work commuter, wife's commuter, and weekend hauler).
Europeans and the British don't seem to want big trucks. Think the Big 3 cares about Europe and the UK? They sold and sold and sold and sold right here on their own soil, plenty to keep their pockets lined. Why would they care what those across the pond want when they were making it big right here?
Sure, it bit them in the ass now. $4 a gallon for fuel? That's only double what it was during the long stretch of truck sales. Who would have thought that people would freeze up with a doubling of gas prices? When I started driving, I think I paid $0.69 for gas at 16 years of age. By the time I got to college, I was paying $1.39 for gas, hmm, double in just a few short years. No one bitched then. The price of gas rose steadily, as did the price of cars, and the paychecks followed right along. Along came 2001-2003, and suddenly, paychecks quit rising. Not paychecks of the snobby $100k people, the paychecks of the working class. The ones buying these trucks for $40k and hauling their weekend hauling after commuting all week.
I don't think the rising costs of fuel is the cause of anything. It is the stagnation of the paycheck that is the cause of it all. No increase in the paycheck, no more cars being purchased. The rising fuel costs of the past years could have easily been absorbed. Problem was, the paychecks nearly have leveled off the past 7 years. What little increasing of income there has been, have all been wiped out with the cost of health insurance. When paychecks increase by $15 per pay from raises and the health insurance premiums raise by $30 per pay, it's not difficult to figure out what the problem is. It's right there, cost not associated with oil and crap raises for the past 7 years or so for the 50% of the US population that is at the median average of $32,000 per year.
Why does this always come up? If no one wants to buy American cars, then why are parking lots packed full of American cars in...... America!!!
Yes, they were stupid not planning ahead, but they have been making a killing the past 10 years selling $40k trucks and SUVs. That is why they were not producing small economy cars. Gas was $1.25-1.50-1.75 per gallon. 90% of their market was buying $40k full size trucks and SUVs for the past 10+ years. The other 10 percent was buying Malibus and Impalas. I've been making parts for GM cars for the past 13 years, I know which ones they were selling.
The only reason the Cavalier POS sold was because in comparison to a $40,000 pickup truck, it sold for about $8000. Some people bought the POS.
Honda and Toyota have GM stomped to the ground on economy and small cars. GM chose to go with a market that Honda and Toyota couldn't compete with, boat hauling, horse trailer hauling, construction supply hauling big trucks. Why do people over here want big trucks? Because one buddy of mine has a 4000 pound trailer he hauls stuff on. Another buddy of mine has an 8000 pound camper he hauls around every weekend. Yet another one hauls around a 6000 pound boat, and another, 10,000 pound horse trailer. People want a truck to haul stuff around where I live. They need the torque, yet drivability, of a V8 to pull this stuff. As the prices of trucks rose, they drove the trucks on their daily commutes because who can afford insurance and payments on 3 vehicles (work commuter, wife's commuter, and weekend hauler).
Europeans and the British don't seem to want big trucks. Think the Big 3 cares about Europe and the UK? They sold and sold and sold and sold right here on their own soil, plenty to keep their pockets lined. Why would they care what those across the pond want when they were making it big right here?
Sure, it bit them in the ass now. $4 a gallon for fuel? That's only double what it was during the long stretch of truck sales. Who would have thought that people would freeze up with a doubling of gas prices? When I started driving, I think I paid $0.69 for gas at 16 years of age. By the time I got to college, I was paying $1.39 for gas, hmm, double in just a few short years. No one bitched then. The price of gas rose steadily, as did the price of cars, and the paychecks followed right along. Along came 2001-2003, and suddenly, paychecks quit rising. Not paychecks of the snobby $100k people, the paychecks of the working class. The ones buying these trucks for $40k and hauling their weekend hauling after commuting all week.
I don't think the rising costs of fuel is the cause of anything. It is the stagnation of the paycheck that is the cause of it all. No increase in the paycheck, no more cars being purchased. The rising fuel costs of the past years could have easily been absorbed. Problem was, the paychecks nearly have leveled off the past 7 years. What little increasing of income there has been, have all been wiped out with the cost of health insurance. When paychecks increase by $15 per pay from raises and the health insurance premiums raise by $30 per pay, it's not difficult to figure out what the problem is. It's right there, cost not associated with oil and crap raises for the past 7 years or so for the 50% of the US population that is at the median average of $32,000 per year.
While I agree with most of what you said NightHawk, I just want to ask, how many people actually NEED a pickup truck to haul things around? 1 out of 10 people at most? And how many people really NEED an SUV? You can't fit any more people in it than a regular car and you can't drive it offroad or you'll kill it, so what's the point? The other 9 out of 10 people just want large vehicles for the sake of having large vehicles, they don't actually need them. And with gas prices always going up (I guess somebody neglected to mention this to the big 3), those 9 out of 10 people are going to wake up and realize that they don't really need such big, inefficient vehicles, and instead go over to Toyota and buy a smaller, more fuel efficient vehicle, simply because it's almost common sense that Japanese cars are more fuel efficient than American cars.
GM killed the electric car and they will always regret that move when they go out of business next year. The Chevy Volt will never make it to the production line. And the 2010 Ford Mustang will have only 1 horsepower.
RIP big 3, can't say I'm surprised to say that.
GM killed the electric car and they will always regret that move when they go out of business next year. The Chevy Volt will never make it to the production line. And the 2010 Ford Mustang will have only 1 horsepower.
RIP big 3, can't say I'm surprised to say that.
bmw 330d... 3l 6cyl and 41 us-mpg
(Copied this from another post on another forum on the same issue)
From my understanding, Ford USA are starting to get the tools shipped over from Ford Europe to build the Focus, and some other EU models, over there as they are seen as better cars. I suspect GM will do the same.
Also from my pretty poor memory Ford Europe is the only profitable part of Ford and again I believe the same can be said for GM and you just have to look at the US versions of their websites to see why. Lets take the Ford Focus, US version is a 2.0 I4 Auto 4-door saloon base is $14,995 (£10,152.51)*. Same spec for the EU model base is £18,895.00 ($27,907.43)*. The Americans are used to paying bottom dollar for everything and the only way the Big Three will start to turn a profit is if they realise this adjust the prices to fit.
Even when/if the EU Focus gets shipped over there is no way the American market will be charged damn near $30k for a base vehicle. And this children, is why the Big Three will not survive in the current market.
From my understanding, Ford USA are starting to get the tools shipped over from Ford Europe to build the Focus, and some other EU models, over there as they are seen as better cars. I suspect GM will do the same.
Also from my pretty poor memory Ford Europe is the only profitable part of Ford and again I believe the same can be said for GM and you just have to look at the US versions of their websites to see why. Lets take the Ford Focus, US version is a 2.0 I4 Auto 4-door saloon base is $14,995 (£10,152.51)*. Same spec for the EU model base is £18,895.00 ($27,907.43)*. The Americans are used to paying bottom dollar for everything and the only way the Big Three will start to turn a profit is if they realise this adjust the prices to fit.
Even when/if the EU Focus gets shipped over there is no way the American market will be charged damn near $30k for a base vehicle. And this children, is why the Big Three will not survive in the current market.
FTR, Mike, we find we are also able to tow heavy things in Europe too.
Now that I've calmed down some, Republicans actually have conflicting viewpoints. They are pro-Big Buisness, yes, but also firmly committed to free-market capitalism. This time they sided with their capitalist views. IMO this decision is wrong and inconsistent with recent events.
Nighthawk described the causes for the big cars and trucks better than I ever could. To add on to what he said, to design a completely new car, especially with all the new technology that needs to be included in electric or otherwise fuel efficient cars takes some time. Normally, this is around 8 years from initial concept until it is for sale, I believe. At least GM and Chrysler have stated plans to get their first electric vehicles on the market in 2010, which is at least even with anything else. 10-8=2. Therefore, by my reckoning, they saw the problem in 2002 and started initial development. If they can hold on for another two years, I think that they can return to profitability.
There is some precedent for this type of thing. In the 80's Chrysler (under Iaccocca) got a loan from the government and returned to profitability much faster than anyone anticipated.
Cobra, not many people actually need those cars, which is part of what is happening now. But they were buying them. Last I checked, companies were there for profit, and this is what the big 3 were doing. Selling people what they were buying. If they had been producing little cars, they would have failed long ago. Many people I know need trucks, but this is an exception, as many people I know need to haul their cars to tracks.
@Sam H: how many dirt roads are there in Britain? I don't actually know the answer, but I suspect the answer is much less. The large open areas in the US means in many places, paved roads are not reasonable. Hauling heavy stuff on poorly kept dirt roads would not be fun in a mini.
On another, completely unrelated note, the financial crisis is doing awful things to club racing in the US. Grids are tiny and it is no fun to watch 4 cars race eachother, especially when they all spread out...
Since they don't actually show road circuit racing on my TV anymore, I have to amuse myself by visiting this forum and yelling at people who don't blindly agree with everything I say...
I'm not sure where in the US you are, to make a direct comparison. Our motorways in the UK are in better condition than the Eisenhower network but I don't think US side roads are in much worse condition than ours, if at all. I drove thousands of miles on gravel roads in Iowa but I never found any to speak of East of Iowa. And I did look for them.. I had a preoccupation with looking for old barns, cataloging as many as I could before they fell down.
You cannot compare a midsize, diesel sedan to a gasoline engined pick up truck or SUV. The 330d sort of weighs a little less then 5000lbs, and has a diesel engine. And by a little less I mean nearly one ton less. Did I mention the 330d was diesel?
These two cars:
Definitely are not comparable, and they are not exactly competing with eachother. People who buy a 5000lb gasoline powered gas guzzling SUV are not exactly considering buying a 330d. They just want an unnecessarily big vehicle so that they can be higher then everyone else and run over curbs and park 1/4 of the way into the adjoining parking space. Not luxury or anything.
I see talks of "EU/UK cars handle better". How many NEED a better handling car? The roads have a speed limit. There isn't a road in the world that I couldn't drive the speed limit on in my Altima, my old Toyota pickup trucks, Chevy full size pickup trucks, or your fancy BMW cars on.
People don't NEED SUVs and trucks just like people don't NEED satellite TV, computers, expensive cameras, cell phones that do everything but cook your meals for you, home theater systems, computer games, and everything else that is not a neccessity. But people buy them. They buy them because they want them.
If you don't know, we do have guns in this country. People do hunt. They put their deer in the back of pickup trucks so they can hose it out after they get home rather than tossing it in the trunk of a BMW. They drive their trucks through the woods to get to their deer camp or their hunting spot. Many people use them for a purpose that they are suited for. For hauling their campers as I've mentioned. They don't NEED to haul a camper, it's just what they like to do. Just like people on this forum like to race on computer games, thus they need a good computer and peripherals.
No one NEEDS anything other than the basic necessities of life. People want things because they enjoy the things they buy, whether it is driving into the woods to go hunting, or sitting in front of a $2000 computer pretending they are a race car driver.
Up until a year or 2 ago, it costs $30 or less to fill up a tank of gas. Up until a year or 2 ago, fuel prices were just a steady climb, following along with the cost of everything else. If something is affordable, why "blame" people for doing the things they do?
If you want big and showbooty there is plently to offer on the EU market, all do the same job more efficiently.
But the American idea of more power is something like this: "Need more powa huh? Well just make it bigger!"
The same sentence works for luxury, big = luxurious.
I'd take a Range Rover over that thing, although I do quite like the late 1990's Suburban.
Hell I bet a Touareg could out do it in performance. The trouble is we build cars to be practical so you don't really get many big useless cars designed to look like an offroader but the most offroading they do is comparable to the average condition of a drive way.
As an identical vehicle, I really can't think of anything to compare to the 'burban as it is in a whole new level of uselessness and excess.
But the American idea of more power is something like this: "Need more powa huh? Well just make it bigger!"
The same sentence works for luxury, big = luxurious.
I'd take a Range Rover over that thing, although I do quite like the late 1990's Suburban.
Hell I bet a Touareg could out do it in performance. The trouble is we build cars to be practical so you don't really get many big useless cars designed to look like an offroader but the most offroading they do is comparable to the average condition of a drive way.
As an identical vehicle, I really can't think of anything to compare to the 'burban as it is in a whole new level of uselessness and excess.
Someone has their common sense hat on.
yup GM bought the design for the orignaly called !!COMMODORE!! from opel and gave it to holden and then was sold to vaxhaull as the VRX or manaro or pontiac as the GTO
We used the bed from the Monaro long before you Aussies slapped a V8 in it, it was know as the Omega and came in 4 pop, v6 and some form of BMW Diesel.
Opel/Vauxhall is a bit of an iffy thing, some cars are made under Vauxhall marquee and rebranded as Opel, and others are the reverse of this. Although to be fair these days it is mostly Opel rebranded as Vauxhall.
Just to my 0.001€ more:
America complain about gas price,...just have a look at what you get in your tank with 20€ here (actually it cost us about 50€ for 40 L)...
edit:
To Nighthawk: average roads in US looks almost like highways compared to where I live... & I don't live in the lost country...
Our roads are not always that smooth... plus having a large SUV/sedan to drive here ends in some nightmares...not to mention I always laugh hard when I cross bigger (& heavier) cars having troubles on thick roads...
America complain about gas price,...just have a look at what you get in your tank with 20€ here (actually it cost us about 50€ for 40 L)...
edit:
To Nighthawk: average roads in US looks almost like highways compared to where I live... & I don't live in the lost country...
Our roads are not always that smooth... plus having a large SUV/sedan to drive here ends in some nightmares...not to mention I always laugh hard when I cross bigger (& heavier) cars having troubles on thick roads...
As Canada has learned many times when dealing with the US regarding our "FREE TRADE" agreement. They don't care what the agreement says they do whatever they want and then go to court. When the court case is decided aganst them they ignore that as well
This has happened over and over with the lumber industry.
well yes you can since one is a pile of rubbish and the other one is an equally bad diesel
so? you asked if europe produces something with those specs and the answer is yes
and being a diesel it will best any of these monsters at pulling trailers doesnt look quite as much as if the owner actually reads penis enlargement spam mails and will outrun any suv on either backroads or the autobahn
It's exactly the same company - Vauxhall is just the British name for Opel. And I don't think any of them are made in a marquee.Regarding the explanations as to why Americans like the type of vehicles produced by the "big three", we're not seeing anything new here. But as usual, the defense of it which is very much about "the American way" is sounding dangerously close to whining that "it's our right to do it!"
So, you want to haul an 8000lb camper around with you? Tough. Get a smaller one, especially one that doesn't weigh as much as a small house.
Wanna tow a boat, despite fuel prices climbing and the prospect of those making the big pickups going bankrupt? Well then leave it in the water - it's where boats belong, not on the road.
The thing is, although the US is a lot more rural than the UK is and I doubt there's many folk here who need to sling a deer in the back of their car, it's not like people can't tow things over here. The difference is that when an American thinks "towing torque", he thinks, "I need a big V8 with a slushmatic box". When someone over here needs towing torque, they get a 3-3.5 litre turbodiesel in something a lot more space and weight efficient than a massive pickup. If we need to tow an 8000lb trailer, we can do, just a bit slower and not as conveniently.
And that's the crux of the matter - the vehicles that Ford, GM and Chrysler have relied upon (the things that turn a comfortable profit like pickups and SUVs) aren't necessities. They're items of pure convenience, and when the going gets tough, they're the first things to be struck off people's shopping lists. And with their astounding lack of foresight (did they really think oil prices would never increase, or that people would always have enough money to buy a vehicle twice the size of what they need?), they've realised they simply don't have anything else to offer. Not talking about fancy hybrids or electric or hydrogen power, just an alternative to the pickup or SUV.
I suppose the greatest irony is that if Ford, GM and Chrysler survive, their only choice is to start copying the Japanese manufacturers that so shamelessly used to copy the Western manufacturers in the '60s and '70s.
Except that when the Japanese copied the West they improved upon it. If the Yanks copied the Japs then they'd just be a lot worse. And probably 15 times bigger.
they need to be... have you ever compared japanese bottoms to american ones?
Not entirely true. The VXR range, only comes under Vauxhall (as is, Opel hasn't got an equal equivalent of it), the VX220, was made for Vauxhall, Opel just re branded it for the rest of Europe.
Yes you can argue that as they share a lot of cars/parts they are the same just with a new name, but like a SAAB which is Vectra, or the VXR8 which is Omega (a car which was ruined when the yanks get their hands on it) the small differences are what make the difference.
Before Opel and Vauxhall merged they were pretty much mirroring each other anyway but Vauxhall has kept it's mentalist hat which turns family cars into basket cases.
yes they do... they call them opc and theyre exactly the same cars
the only one that isnt available as an opel is the vxr8 and im guessing that because its only built with the wheel on the wrong side
The US Automakers are in Trouble thread
(88 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG