The gauntlet was thrown down by that ... hmm family forum ... person of dubious parental lineage who may or may not be one of sim racings most popular personalities a long time ago.

Oh I cant say that can I, oh well

The fact is live adminning DOES NOT WORK in LFS, I doubt it does in some other sims too, although i've not checked. The reason is simple: An admin lacks all the necessary tools to make the CORRECT decision.

We've all seen poor admin decisions with live admins - hell even CTRA has had a few when admins have been under pressure - but CTRA is unique in it's appeal procedure at least, bans are a very totalitarian approach to improving standards in our sport, and in my opinion serve only to move a problem on rather than fix it.

Now R2P is a league system, so lets compare it to a CTRA league, the STCC. The STCC rules expressely forbids the clerk or any race marshalls to make any decision that may impair a driver until post race stewarding. To put that another way, even I - as the league organiser - am not allowed to penalise a driver during the event. There is one exception to do with heats and failing to qualify for the feature race but it's an obscure rule for very specific circumstances and even that delays the start of the race in order to allow a formal review of the replay.

You cannot live admin a simulated race to a high standard because the limited camera perspective and replay tools are insufficient. ONLY a thorough search of the reply affords the necessary information for a QUALITY steward to do their job.

It is not possible to provide a high quality racing service with a live steward.

Pickup racing is a different ticket entirely, one which R2P does not cater to. This is the meat and veg of the CTRA system. I have raced other sims in pickup racing and am yet to find any service of the standard of the CTRA. I'll state that as a fact rather than an opinion.

EDIT: I would also like to point out that whilst the CTRA is a 24 hour operation is does feature an $admin alarm, if one is at home and not asleep! Which brings immediate attention to the admins in case of an actual wrecker. Thankfully actual wreckers are extremely rare.

Quote from Flyinsi :

sounds like he's on the payroll to me.

Totally O/T: Kudos for bringing some Chorlton to the forums, I used to love that show.

lol my pleasure

I haven't been on CTRA servers for a while, but as i remember for Pick-Up-Racing they have good standards (better then average for such crowded servers).

I think it's not more then logical a system for what you have to pay with organized races and a live steward has higher standards. Almost every other organized (free) league has that too.

Quote from marzman :

I think it's not more then logical a system for what you have to pay with organized races and a live steward has higher standards. Almost every other organized (free) league has that too.

I don't think a live admin is required to achieve a higher standard of driving. I think what is needed is a comprehensive reporting system and supporting admin and appeal procedures.

I agree 100% with Becky, a live admin can't make a good call. Good calls come from close and meticulous review. Review happens after a race, not mid-race. A live admin amounts to a figurehead gimmick or a substitute for a server's InSim application, to start the race and collect results.

[edit] Racing in IGTC, just as an example, there's a whole bunch of admins present on the server, but in all complaints I've noted that they very sensibly and responsibly send one admin offline to review replays before administering DTs or SGs etc. Review is key. You can't do that accurately or fairly midrace with just one race steward online.

[edit edit] I'm not intent on criticizing R2P. Tim McArthur does what he does, and we do something different. When X2 goes live, then we'll be looking at something more head-to-head with R2P. The points I'm making are moot really, since they revolve around Magnus's opinion and really are only intended to address the deficiencies I perceive in his article.

Quote from SamH :

I read it a few weeks ago, thought about it for a moment and just figured "ASS".

CTRA doesn't have live admin, but it's not a pay-to-play service. It's also important to remember that they've held a whopping 1,759 races (at time of writing). We've held 122,303. They've clocked up an astounding 28,000 race entries while we've only managed to muster just shy of 900,000. They've raced a stonking 820,000 laps. We've only cranked out, between us, a measly 7 million laps.

I'm afraid I have no idea what their reporting procedures are like. I only know what ours are like. I don't know if theirs is more or less comprehensive than ours, or if it's as transparent. I don't know if they have a downloadable replay of every single reported/upheld incident ever reported on their system, like we have on ours, nor do I know if their appeals system is as functional as ours, or if their determination to uphold real-racing standards compares at all with ours. I just know we got a bit of a knocking by Mr Tellbom in ASS. We didn't skip a beat

lol ASS is biased. people just need to stop being lazy and report extremely bad driving or wreckers. of course in the lower rungs there will be more accidents. There don't seem to be many in the classes above beginners... i wonder what the statistics are for each server. they might even be on the website... i'll go have a look

Quote from SamH :

I don't think a live admin is required to achieve a higher standard of driving. I think what is needed is a comprehensive reporting system and supporting admin and appeal procedures.

I agree 100% with Becky, a live admin can't make a good call. Good calls come from close and meticulous review. Review happens after a race, not mid-race. A live admin amounts to a figurehead gimmick or a substitute for a server's InSim application, to start the race and collect results.

The first eTM race comes into mind myself... :doh:

I concur, live admining does not work. The admin will only manage to get glimpses of the infraction, and the rest would be guesswork, better off to view the incidents offline, which reminds me... I am crap Sam, kick me in the rear...only 100 more pages to read in my book...

/me kicks Chris up da bum READ dammit! READ!

Our first UK eTM race is a really GOOD example, actually. We made an admin call in the server, thinking we'd got the facts right. We hadn't.. we made a mess. It simply wouldn't have happened if the admin decision had been kept til after the race, end of.

Very stunned its a requirement for UKCT to be able to read

Quote from SpikeyMarcoD :

Very stunned its a requirement for UKCT to be able to read

I think it's a new requirement upcoming for the new fiscal year. Last year the highest requirement was that you had 2 eyes. The other one, which I successfully fulfilled in a Stock Cup race is running out of fuel on the last lap of a league race...

I'm trying... it's just soooo boring....

Quote from Gabkicks :

lol ASS is biased. people just need to stop being lazy and report extremely bad driving or wreckers. of course in the lower rungs there will be more accidents. There don't seem to be many in the classes above beginners... i wonder what the statistics are for each server. they might even be on the website... i'll go have a look

We generate report stats in the admin website. This is the current state of play:


Race1:

NOT SUBMITTED: 20;

PENDING: 14;

UNDER REVIEW: 19;

DISMISSED: 332;

WARNED: 185;

CAUTIONED: 143;

SHORT TERM BAN: 62;

MID TERM BAN: 105;

PERMANENT BAN: 65;

Race2:

NOT SUBMITTED: 0;

PENDING: 0;

UNDER REVIEW: 0;

DISMISSED: 37;

WARNED: 14;

CAUTIONED: 31;

SHORT TERM BAN: 4;

MID TERM BAN: 4;

PERMANENT BAN: 1;

Race3:

NOT SUBMITTED: 0;

PENDING: 1;

UNDER REVIEW: 0;

DISMISSED: 14;

WARNED: 14;

CAUTIONED: 7;

SHORT TERM BAN: 2;

MID TERM BAN: 0;

PERMANENT BAN: 2;

RaceUFBR:

NOT SUBMITTED: 0;

PENDING: 0;

UNDER REVIEW: 0;

DISMISSED: 29;

WARNED: 16;

CAUTIONED: 14;

SHORT TERM BAN: 5;

MID TERM BAN: 6;

PERMANENT BAN: 2;

Single1:

NOT SUBMITTED: 15;

PENDING: 13;

UNDER REVIEW: 16;

DISMISSED: 134;

WARNED: 105;

CAUTIONED: 67;

SHORT TERM BAN: 30;

MID TERM BAN: 31;

PERMANENT BAN: 29;

Single2:

NOT SUBMITTED: 2;

PENDING: 3;

UNDER REVIEW: 1;

DISMISSED: 7;

WARNED: 5;

CAUTIONED: 1;

SHORT TERM BAN: 0;

MID TERM BAN: 2;

PERMANENT BAN: 0;

Single3:

NOT SUBMITTED: 0;

PENDING: 0;

UNDER REVIEW: 0;

DISMISSED: 1;

WARNED: 0;

CAUTIONED: 0;

SHORT TERM BAN: 0;

MID TERM BAN: 0;

PERMANENT BAN: 0;

BumpJump1:

NOT SUBMITTED: 7;

PENDING: 14;

UNDER REVIEW: 3;

DISMISSED: 149;

WARNED: 25;

CAUTIONED: 21;

SHORT TERM BAN: 33;

MID TERM BAN: 29;

PERMANENT BAN: 23;

LOL I wonder where I remembered that page, I tried to find it on the CTRA site.... I think I need to goto bed, my temper went hours ago, now my common sense...oh wait....

hehe.. nighty night Chris!

Quote from SamH :

I don't think a live admin is required to achieve a higher standard of driving.

I think it doesn't hurt. If someone can drive like a cock all night and only experience a slap on the wrist a week later, they might not appreciate what it was for, or even that it matters. Getting kicked for driving like a cretin tells you immediately that you should've have turned in on whoever it was you turned in on, or that punting your way through yellow flags isn't acceptable, or that not looking to see who's on your outside when you decide to drift all the way to the outside and cause a huge pile-up isn't the best way to race with humans.

The "newbie" servers are the only ones that are ever populated. I appreciate that the higher servers might have better driving standards, but if so little driving actually happens there then it's not much of a consolation. The racing on the newbie servers is awful, btw.

I'm afraid I just don't agree. Getting kicked off a server just means that you either lost connection or you got kicked by someone. It tells you nothing about the reason.

If on the other hand, even a week later, you start getting a massive great big "You have an admin message. Go to $notes." constantly splatted across the middle of your screen - or worse still, you join the server and immediately get kicked with a message saying "You have been banned 30 days", you're going to wonder WTF for. On investigation, you're given the reason for the complaint, the admin's decision, a link to the replay so you can see exactly what the problem is for yourself, and you're provided with an opportunity to appeal the decision if you think it's an unfair one.

Compared with a sharp kick off the server, I think our method thoroughly pwns.

Quote from SamH :

We generate report stats in the admin website. This is the current state of play

are those since the system got started back when it was called stcc?

if so those numbers are way too low in my oppinion... i realize i havent been on a ctra sever in ages but that because everytime i was on one the driving didnt motivate me to stay long term

someone needs(ed) to tell these guys that walls are to be avoided and even from a standing start t1 needs some braking

although now that ive typed that i just rememberd plowing straight though 3 lxs driven by sam kev and i think fel on the blackwood backstraight after forgetting that the fz5s braking point is in fact not as far back as the lx'

Quote from Shotglass :

are those since the system got started back when it was called stcc?

Nahh, these stats are all since the X-System, last summer. The licence notes from the STCC days are still kept on individual licences, and all associated replays are still available to admins if ever needed, but the current reporting system was developed from the ground up for the X-System and these numbers are all from that.

And I remember you doing that in that FZ50!! hehe!!

Quote from Shotglass :

although now that ive typed that i just rememberd plowing straight though 3 lxs driven by sam kev and i think fel on the blackwood backstraight after forgetting that the fz5s braking point is in fact not as far back as the lx'

That's funny because I remember you as the best FZ driver I've ever seen. It's good to know that you suck.

Quote from SamH :

Compared with a sharp kick off the server, I think our method thoroughly pwns.

Y'know, if it does, it's not working as it should. I went on your servers a couple of times last week and the driving was shocking. I didn't report anybody because I thought they'd only get a warning - it's a lot of bother to submit a report. Live admins mean there's no burden on the drivers to have to go through that whole rigmarole every race, and it is literally every race on the bottom-tier servers.

That's why I prefer to race on the DMR servers when they're populated. They know their regulars and they know they're not full of shit - they'll give newbies a fair go, but not tolerate over-aggressive driving. So if someone's clearly behaving like a tool they disappear during that session. Disappearing someone a week later makes no impact on that session, which is where IMHO the CTRA system falls over.

I cant agree with much of that Kev.

I've been in race 1 a few times recently and there's been no hassle at all. If there are probs it's far from literally every race.

If you cant be arsed to make reports then your to blame for some of the driving standards.

If someone is driving consistently poorly then the $admin command is your friend. The few times I've seen it necessary for someone to call an admin into the server they've arrived quickly to cast their eye over things.

Quote from SamH :

Compared with a sharp kick off the server, I think our method thoroughly pwns.

in terms of (theoretical) fairness... maybe

but it completely falls flat on immediacy
thou shalt not kill because if this books turns out to be true and someone snitches on you you might spend a bit of time being burned alive some time in the future but maybe not... yeah not exactly a threat that has much weight

and youre completely ignoring the effect that having someone with an @ infront of their name telling people to calm down can have... aka the tiny approach to admining

Quote from SamH :

Nahh, these stats are all since the X-System, last summer.

still a bit on the low side then imho
my (dated) experience tells me i could go online at any time of day and find at least one reportworthy incident per race on the entry servers

Quote from thisnameistaken :

That's funny because I remember you as the best FZ driver I've ever seen.

oh no im not

Quote from Shotglass :

and youre completely ignoring the effect that having someone with an @ infront of their name telling people to calm down can have... aka the tiny approach to admining

Unfortunately we simply don't have the manpower. I'm taking the day off tomorrow to clear the backlog of reports that we have now. CTRA admining is entirely voluntary and everybody who is involved in it has prior commitments at the moment. That's just how things are. The alternative would be to close CTRA servers down until there is an admin available to man it, but that will change CTRA from the 24/7 place to race it is to something very different indeed.

Quote from The Moose :

I cant agree with much of that Kev.

I've been in race 1 a few times recently and there's been no hassle at all. If there are probs it's far from literally every race.

This ties in with the "hotlap to magically appear at the front of the grid" issue I argued about yesterday (was it today? Days kinda blend together when you're always drunk): You're one of the fastest drivers on the system. You rarely ever share the track with anyone but the best drivers. You're in no position to comment, really.

Quote from The Moose :

If you cant be arsed to make reports then your to blame for some of the driving standards.

Bollocks. I save replays, immediately disconnect and watch them, and find that half the other drivers on the server are making the same dipshit manoeuvres as the guy I'm about to report. Seriously. When that realisation arrives do you report 16 drivers or just assume it's acceptable to drive like a total dickhead? Arguably these guys race there more often than I do, and that's what they're used to. And why should I be responsible for the quality of racing on servers that I visit once or twice a month? Total bollocks.

Quote from The Moose :

If someone is driving consistently poorly then the $admin command is your friend. The few times I've seen it necessary for someone to call an admin into the server they've arrived quickly to cast their eye over things.

Sam just said himself that live adminning is totally pointless, so what's the point in having a command that calls an admin to make a live decision, on a system where they declare live admin decisions to be totally unreliable and unfair?

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Sam just said himself that live adminning is totally pointless, so what's the point in having a command that calls an admin to make a live decision, on a system where they declare live admin decisions to be totally unreliable and unfair?

We don't. We stick our face in. If we see something we don't like, we raise a report like everyone else. Except in the case of blatant wreckers, sitting in SO City chicanes, anyway. That's usually the reason we get $admin called. Even in those instances, we'll only short-term ban until the full report is processed.

If it doesn't suit someone to race in CTRA, there's absolutely no point in trying to convince them they're wrong. It's not my job. At the end of the day, they're right. You go where you want, because that's what you want, and you don't go where it doesn't suit you. No amount of admins spouting bilge about how good they do their bit, or how good their bit is, is going to change anything.

Quote from SamH :

If it doesn't suit someone to race in CTRA, there's absolutely no point in trying to convince them they're wrong. It's not my job. At the end of the day, they're right. You go where you want, because that's what you want, and you don't go where it doesn't suit you. No amount of admins spouting bilge about how good they do their bit, or how good their bit is, is going to change anything.

And if you're convinced your system is the best it can be, there's no point in me telling you where it falls short, and why smaller, better-adminned servers are better-equipped to provide a decent night's racing and consistently do so.

I just think the CTRA thing - while an admirable effort - seems like it's become little more than an exercise in officiousness. The good intention is there, but it's ruled by a blind faith in the quality of the process, which isn't adequate. You might be reducing the numbers of crap drivers eventually, but the processing time means that in all practicality it makes **** all difference to the people who are actually racing at any given time. And the beginner servers (I'm sure you're aware that those are the only regularly populated servers) continue to be full of shit drivers, only avoidable if you set a decent hotlap time and escape the pile-up at T1.

How this is supposed to be any better than a live-adminned server where obviously over-zealous drivers are cautioned or kicked/banned immediately is lost on me.