We all love Live For Speed. I do as well. It has taught me a great deal about driving.

I'm currently writing a paper about driving simulators in general and their uses. My instructor suggested that I hit up some forums in order to hopefully broaden my view on the subject.

I would love to hear what you believe that LFS, or sims in general, has taught you .

I would also like to hear what you believe the biggest downsides are when using a simulator to improve your driving skill.

Thanks very much for your time everyone. I will be watching this thread like a hawk.



If your also wondering I will probably be demoing LFS for my final presentation and have allready taught my sister to drive manual using LFS.

In some respects, LFS can help with certain aspects of driving. Things like gear changes, power delivery and controlling a car are the most common ones. IMO, there are better simulators out there that can help you to learn to drive, but these are'nt mainstream.

Nothing can compare to getting into a car in real, and then learning to drive in that. In LFS, you dont have to deal with things like biting point, movement of the car moving you, spacial awareness and more. Also, as LFS is a simulator, people always drive alot more fearless and faster in LFS, as there is no worry about damaging your car, or hurting yourself if you are in a crash.

About the teaching part, for myself, i dont think it has taught me anything new, as driving is not very new to me, but i unintentionally done an experiment .

When i first got into LFS, one of my cousins came over. I shown it to her, and let her drive on it with a G25. I put her in h-gate mode, with manual clutch. After about an hour or two of driving about, she eventually got the hang of pulling away from standstill smoothly. About 2 days later, my dad let her drive his car (manual) around some of the private roads by our house. When she attempted to pull away, she done it no problem. She got the biting point perfectly, and proceeded to change gears properly.

About 3 weeks later, i was messing with my car which is also a manual. One of my freinds decided to come over. Now, he knows a fair bit about fixing cars, but has never driven one. I took the car for a quick drive testing a new part i fitted, and he came with me. We got talking, and he said "can i try driving it?". I let him give it a shot, and when he tryed to pull away, he either stalled it, pulled away with too much power wheelspinning it or did'nt bring the clutch out enough.

So to sum it up, i believe that with the right simulator, they can provide the right kind of training in certain aspects to new drivers, which can result in them having an idea of what to do when they get in the car.

http://www.hs.fi/autot/artikke ... laattorissa/1135233501866

Dunno, but that might be interesting. That's in Finnish (but checkout the video), summary: soon in driving school people can choose whether they want to do night time driving training in real life or in a simulator. Ministry of Transport says this simulator provides sufficient teaching compared to real life.

Also one interesting subject might be how F1 teams are developing their own in-house simulators, but obviously there's very little info available on this... but at least there's this video.

And if you already plan to demo LFS, don't forget that LFS will be used as part of the driver selection process in the V1 Championship (see the thread).

Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure most established race drivers only use sim games to learn tracks and for strength/focus training. I don't think any of them use simulators to actually improve their driving technique.

That is very true, all of you guys are right.
LFS IS NO SUB FOR THE REAL THING, but in some ways you can touch base with similarities. I should know since PDR is actually my real drift team IRL, there are some things that even the best sim won't recreate.
For ex: In LFS in order to get smoke u need really hot tires or be going fast enough and have a good angle to make even a little smoke..IRL smoke does not flow from your tires when you drive, it comes from counter acting forces and enough power to produce said amount, with that said, you will not spin out as easily either IRL with tires heated.
I do think that i will help some people gain a better understanding of physics and how it works, but never is anything a sub for real life.

Besides, i love having a smoky cock-pit in real life

Quote from Technique :

Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure most established race drivers only use sim games to learn tracks and for strength/focus training. I don't think any of them use simulators to actually improve their driving technique.

This subject was done pretty thoroughly recently, and in fact largely done to death.

I think the conclusion was that LFS is useful as a prequel for the newcomer to racing, because of the opportunity to learn fundamental racing techniques.. how best to attack an apex, what different options you have to approach an apex and which may be better in different circumstances, etc.. some basics about what effect different setup choices make, and why you'd make them - caster, camber, toe, dampers etc.

An experienced LFSer will spend less time learning the fundamentals of RL racing, and can potentially cut out a lot of the earlier hours of seat time. You may start further along the learning curve than a non-LFSer, basically. There's a point, I believe, where the stuff you learned in LFS is somewhat left behind and replaced or superceded by proper RL experience, and that point is likely to come before you can be considered a seasoned RL racer.

[e] I should point out that LFS is a racing simulator rather than a driving simulator. Because of that, there are a good many aspects to normal driving that aren't specifically modelled in LFS yet, or likely ever (making sure your door is shut properly, putting your seatbelt on, reaching back to slap your arguing sproggs in the back seat, etc). Nevertheless, LFS is a very good driving simulator because of the premise that LFS models a reaslistic physical environment. Unlike many other sims, cars in LFS run to simulated laws of real-life physics at all times, and at all speeds, and because of this you can drive in LFS in much the same way as you can a real car. While many LFSers are a bit annoyed by the cruise server popularity, I do believe that the physical environment modelling of LFS (to its credit) makes cruise servers viable and popular.

A valuable skill learnt on LFS.
I used to play lfs alot a few years ago.
One day i was driving on the freeway, It had been raining and first rains here in W.A. turn the roads extremely slippery.
A car in front was indicating to pull off onto the hard shoulder as it must have had a problem,
The car behind it assumed it would be off and out of the way but it stopped,
i remember seeing all four wheels lift off the ground on impact, in front of me. They ended up blocking both lanes.
Thanks to LFS, and all the pile ups after FE and Bl chicane, I looked for a way past on the shoulder (mainly sand and light grasses),
I feathered the brake a little pulled onto the dirt, very gently coaxed her through the wet sand and grass and back onto the bitumin.
Huge buzz, I remember the car behind me copy me to.
This all happenend at 110km/h and i swear it was lfs and just looking for a way through pile ups that saved me that day.
Always meant to share that.

Fantastic responses guys. I really appreciate your input.

Quote from SamH :

This subject was done pretty thoroughly recently, and in fact largely done to death.

I think the conclusion was that LFS is useful as a prequel for the newcomer to racing, because of the opportunity to learn fundamental racing techniques.. how best to attack an apex, what different options you have to approach an apex and which may be better in different circumstances, etc.. some basics about what effect different setup choices make, and why you'd make them - caster, camber, toe, dampers etc.

An experienced LFSer will spend less time learning the fundamentals of RL racing, and can potentially cut out a lot of the earlier hours of seat time. You may start further along the learning curve than a non-LFSer, basically. There's a point, I believe, where the stuff you learned in LFS is somewhat left behind and replaced or superceded by proper RL experience, and that point is likely to come before you can be considered a seasoned RL racer.

LFS also teaches wrong things, wrong habbits and may even be the root of a serious accident because stuff doesn't happen in real life like it does in sims. Sims do teach you bad habbits which may be hard to learn off in real car. LFS may demonstrate (like any other sim) the importance of good line through corners and the effect on lap time but not LFS or any sim does actually teach you how to do it in real life. Sims can teach you how to use telemetry and how to assess you situation and lap times versus others but the situation is a whole lot different when you need to install the gadgets into the car and make sure they are installed correctly. Sim do not teach anything about the the mechanical side of things which is central part of real life racing. To be able to make sure the car is running ok and, if necessary, fix it. Nor does sims teach you that eveything takes time. Nor do sims teach you how to deal with a car that doesn't handle well (not LFS in the slightest).

Sims don't teach about anything how to steer, use pedals or shift. The basic techniques can be about the same with similar equipment but what you do in real car is still whole worlds different scenario. Sims are not able to teach you how varying lap conditions can be nor how the car is a bit different everytime you drive it.

If sims can teach something, it is the racing line (very basic dry weather) and how to position your car on racetrack and some basic rules and methods how and where to overtake, defend or leave room. Also stuff like the mental side of racing, how to keep focused throughout the racing event, how to keep cool and how to see accidents before they happen. Learn to read other cars, what they are doing and why, where are they actually going and what are they about to do. Sims can also teach track configurations, corners and shifting points but other than that the most important stuff is imho the stuff you pick up and learn by racing with other people.

I don't know if LFS did it, or all other racing games I played in my life. But last year I had a skid session with an instructor. After I came to a stop, the guy asked me: did you take any lessons? You reacted perfectly, and the car ended up in the right direction
But I never took any lessons. So he asked if I played racing sims, and he told me that often people learn how to react in such a situation from games, because it has become some kind of instinct.

The best argument i find with this is. In a real car you feel it moving. Here you dont feel it, so you do not drive the same. Yesterday on LTC, I was going +210km/h between two barriers barely wider than the car. Many of us also on our first time go too fast into a corner, and slide off the track, often into a wall. If we were really driving, we would drive that fast without knowing things, as our nerves would hold us back. Also when we do go off the track and hit a wall, its more of "do'h!" rather than fear.

Quote from Hyperactive :

Sims don't teach about anything how to steer, use pedals or shift. The basic techniques can be about the same with similar equipment but what you do in real car is still whole worlds different scenario.

Maybe they aren't 1:1 exactly, but LFS really does teach how to operate steering and pedals in a racing situation. The completely different feel of controllers can take time to get used to, but when it's nailed, a real car does everything like LFS car does (and like you said, also something that LFS car doesn't). If you put down hundreds of hours of racing in LFS or nKpro perhaps, all the vehicle dynamics related causalities are so deeply in your brain/spine that you can straightly apply them to real life, like DEFFX explained he had done.

I also remember one accident I managed to avoid a pileup by pulling the handbrake and performing a scandinavian flick in traffic before even thinking - and that was during my first 6 months of driving, definitely taught by LFS.

I think LFS is a BRILLIANT tool for driver training

http://www.karting1.co.uk/sim-vs-real-life.htm

last weekend i competed in the 1st race of my 2nd season in the british karting championship and after a 7 month gap since my last race went from 11th to 3rd at T1, and would be leading the championship if it wasnt cancelled!

i cant afford to race regularly but LFS is more that subsitute in the way it teaches u late apex and early throttle racing lines, to watch for crashes, how to get through traffic etc etc

its awesome

LFS has helped me greatly in improving my car controll etc. I remember the first time I went karting (I had been playing LFS for only a couple of months), and I demolished the entire field. Now I have my own kart and setting quickler lap times than people who have much more driving experience than I do.

I owe a lot to LFS, i cannot say exactly how much it has helped my driving, but i am certain that it has drastically improved my car controll, racing lines, and most importantly my overall racing speed and as a result of this I will never forget LFS

I can confirm the karting part and also free way awereness..
When i was karting it just felt natural and like i already done it before.. Even though the forces on the kart are much more powerfull then your PC steering wheel, the feedback kinda felt scaringly similiar to LFS..
And browsing through traffic, i remember when i took my driving lessons couple of years back, before i started playing LFS regularly, i did have some tension and bad awareness of the cars around me, now, it's much better, and overtaking in LFS definately helps when you overtake in RL or changing lanes.. at least in my case..

In a way, yes it helps, but it also doesn't affect RL too much.
I actually believe rl is easier than lfs (like alot of you will), because in LFS you can't feel exactly what your car is doing, also it's very easy to push too hard in LFS.
Saying this, I'm not saying that you drive 'faster' in real life, because on LFS you kind of push 150% compared to rl, if you know what I mean. You can drive alot faster on LFS, because no fear facter, or g forces to hold you back..
Having said that, LFS does help you in some parts of racing in rl, for eg. It definitely keeps your reflexes up, as in looking for gaps, dodging cars, and race craft too.. since you're racing with real people.
It does not though, imho, help in any way with driving technique. In real life I'm usually very smooth, or atleast I rarely put in 'too' much steering input. But as I said, on LFS you can push alot harder than irl, by throwing the car around more, skidding around corners etc.

Anyway, I got with some insanely hot girl last night at an 18th birthday party... It rocked

Quote from [DUcK] :

Anyway, I got with some insanely hot girl last night at an 18th birthday party... It rocked

Pics or it didnt happen

See, true story, my phone went flat just before the party... I couldn't even get her number.
What's funny is that my mates mum (who's place I was staying at) knows her friends mum, so somehow she's gonna get that number.


OT, btw...
Sorry

Knowing Duck it was his sister

..Atleast it wasn't my brother... but you'd know about that hey andy?

seriously ducktard. no wai

Yeah your brothers hot :P

LFS or any other racing sim will teach basic pedal and steering operation and driving lines, but nothing more. The truth is that even LFS is quite a poor sim compared to the professional ones used by the likes of F1 teams. Even F1 teams use simulators only for basic vehicle and track familiarisation.

Feedback from driving instructors is that pupils who learn to "drive" in racing sims make very bad drivers in real cars. The most common complaint is over-aggressive steering, with the second most common complaint being unsafe cornering speeds and bad driving lines (racing lines are very unsafe on normal roads).

If you want to use a sim for driver training, you need something designed for purpose. LFS is a simulation-type game, not a training tool.