Hi there,

After performing the easiest ever G25 pedal mod (replacing the pedal screws with longer ones and using washers as spacers) I am ready to start heel toeing properly, especially now the X30 patch is out. One problem, although I know it will make my driving better, I don't know when it is appropriate to use the technique.

So,

• When should I heel-toe? Every downshift?
  
• Which cars should I heel toe with? Is it used in single seaters and cars with a sequential box?

Thanks in advance...

Everytime you need to brake and downshift at the same time.

Don't know how well it will apply to LFS, but here are some handy primers. The most important thing to remember is that it isn't nearly as hard as a lot of people make it out to be. It takes practice to do it well and it's a little tricky before it becomes an automatic subconscious action, but simply doing it is not terribly hard.

http://www.drivingfast.net/car_control/heel_and_toe.htm

http://www.edmunds.com/ownersh ... ticles/45792/article.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel-and-toe

http://www.se-r.net/general/heel_toe.html

The best way to practice, is to find yourself a nice long straight (the backstraight at Blackwood would be excellent). Practice this on the straight without worrying about turning. Just do it over and over until it becomes natural.

Oh, and yes, you generally will use it all the time at every corner that requires a downshift. As far as which cars, any car that requires you to use the clutch when downshifting which is probably most of them (I'm not terribly familiar with LFS, so someone else will have to fill you in on the specifics). If you need to use the clutch, your left foot is busy so you need to brake and blip with your right.


Love,
Aero

Quote from Origamiboy :

• When should I heel-toe? Every downshift?
  
• Which cars should I heel toe with? Is it used in single seaters and cars with a sequential box?

In old LFS you could get away with not blipping (or not much) in the higher gears, maybe because the momentum was high enough to keep the wheels turning. I haven't really put much time in on x30 yet but that might've changed, so it would be safest to blip with every downshift.

And yes, every car. And be especially deliberate about it on the lower gears. And try to get all your shifting done in a straight line. The earlier you shift down, the more throttle you'll have to use to match the revs for the lower gear, so you might want to try timing your downshifts a little later until you get used to it.

Quote from Origamiboy :

Which cars should I heel toe with? Is it used in single seaters and cars with a sequential box?

I think the new patch has caused some confusion (or at least brought it to light), but my understanding of sequential gearboxes is that you don't use the clutch, so heel toe is unnecessary. I believe you are supposed to blip the throttle to rev-match when downshifting in real life, but that's nearly impossible in LFS without using the clutch.

With normal gearboxes, you should always* heel-toe when braking to keep the car stable. Plus, it saves wear on the drivetrain.

*With all the shifting discussion going on, I have come to realize that some people (in real-life and LFS) don't use the clutch on normal gearboxes, and I suppose that could work if you are very precise with your blipping and shift timing. You could still use heel and toe here, but I think most (all?) people who do this use their left foot to brake, so heel-toe is not necessary. Regardless, I recommend always heel-toeing when downshifting and braking.

Quote from AeroMechanical :

....

thx for these.

Since im going to buy a G25 i wanted to know more about this Heel and toe trick.

Quote :

Heel and toe is the art of changing down a gear and rev matching while braking. By combining the braking and gear change when approaching a corner instead of performing them as two separate actions you'll be faster in any driving discipline - an essential skill to master.

Combining the braking and changing gear. Okay i know to use the clutch and the braking pedal in heel and toe, but why the throttle then? In the sametime when shifting your geardown your supposed the kick throttle right?

If not can someone make it clear?

Shamelessy whorin' my thread.

Anyway. When you brake hard and have to downshift aggressively to get engine braking going on (and being in the right gear before apex to get power early enough), you need to match the revs during the clutch disengage phase when engine and transmission are separated. Unless you (somewhat) successfully blip the throttle pedal, the engine revs end up being lower than the transmission driven by wheels at the moment of clutch engage - causing your rear to come around to say 'hi!'.

Quote from Takumi_lfs :

thx for these.

Combining the braking and changing gear. Okay i know to use the clutch and the braking pedal in heel and toe, but why the throttle then? In the sametime when shifting your geardown your supposed the kick throttle right?

If not can someone make it clear?

When you rev-match, you are matching the speed of the engine with the speed of the transmission. If you don't do this, the engine will be turning slower than the transmission, so when the clutch engages, the driven wheels will be slowed dramatically due to engine braking. When you are driving at the limit, this will upset the car enough to cause loss of traction and possibly a spin.

EDIT: Awww dang it, I always get beat at these things. I guess I just type too slow.

So if i dont use the throttle in heal and toe it will lock the rear wheel's and slow it down a bit?

I'm not good at explaining this, but I'll try anyways:

Say you're in 5th gear at 5000RPM going 70Mph.

If you wanted to go 70Mph in 4th gear, you would need more RPMs- say 7000.

The trick is transitioning from one to the other. If the engine is spinning at 5000RPM and you're going 70Mph but you want to shift to 4th gear, you will have to get the engine spinning at 7000RPM before you shift otherwise the engine, which is connected to the wheels, will suddenly and violently be under increased load- the torque coming from the momentum of the car through the wheels will try to make the engine spin faster to even everything out.

You blip the throttle the moment before you shift (with the clutch depressed) to make the engine spin fast enough to match the speed of the wheels (drivetrain). This makes the transition smooth.

The best way to figure it out is to just try it, it's not really so complicated- I just have trouble explaining it clearly- but it should be pretty evident what is going on in LFS.

Love,
Aero

like i said it will "lock" the rear wheel's. But using the throttle it will easily shift the gear @ hight rpm.

Yeah, exactly. At lower speeds it will probably lock the drive-wheels and spin you out, at higher speeds it will most likely just make a mess of your clutch/transmission/engine. In LFS, I'm guessing that means heating up the clutch a lot.

Sometimes (in sims, probably not in real life but I have heard of people doing this in karts) you an actually do this on purpose for some corners. You can downshift suddenly which will lock up the wheels and make the rear step out a bit and give you a little extra oversteer to work with.

Love,
Aero

Heel and toe is used for two reasons, to make down shifts smoother (not makin the engine braking system throw you forward) and to allow the ability of later braking as the engine braking works faster no point in tryin to use it with a squential box as it doesnt work that well, however H pattern gear boxes it will