Quote from tristancliffe :

In my equation, n = constants, including gearing; in your equation n = rpm

How does gearing affect power output?

Quote from Chris P :

Is it not:
P = 2(pi) * Torque * n

Well, if 'n' is RPM (it commonly is) then that's true, although you'd have to be careful about units. If you had torque in Nm and RPM in...well...RPM, then the units of power would be Joules/minute rather than the more usual Joules/sec (i.e. Watts).

I was measuring torque at the wheels (which is where most of us do), and converting to engine power (i.e. wheel rpm - engine rpm). I'm not one of these retards that believes Engine Torque figures from rolling roads

I'm guessing it will go like this:

-if you try to shift with your foot flat on the power the gear won't change.

-in cars with sequential boxes you will need to lift off to shift up

-in cars with H-boxes you will need to lift off and press clutch to shift up

-both lifting and clutching can be done by driving helps but will result in slightly slower shifts than a perfect manual shift

But I don't really see where clutch temperature comes into play. Maybe just to stop the manual clutchers from being ultra aggressive?

EDIT: Hang on, maybe it's to stop the unrealistic machine gun downchanging!

And maybe to stop crazy clutch slipping exploits in powerful cars? Or to allow optimum clutch temps for the Sauber (too cold = crap, too hot = fail)?

Quote from tristancliffe :

I was measuring torque at the wheels

That raises the question, why would you do that when the topic was the torque acting on the clutch?

informative posts ^^

just one thing i noticed from the translation:

Quote :

3h_box_hpat H-pattern gearbox
3h_box_bike motorbike gearbox
3h_box_sequ sequential gearbox
3h_box_seqi sequential gearbox with ignition cut
3h_box_semi paddle shift gearbox
3h_seq_hpat sequential operation of H-pattern gearbox

any new additions here? a longshot yeah..


also i think more engine inertia means that the flywheel does not slow down so fast / engine resists the change in rpm more.

this will heat the clutch if the driver doesn't lift off the throttle. not rev matching properly will maybe upset the car more..

i hope the new physics will reward skillfull heel-toeing and make clutchless shifts more realistic.

i can't wait! :hyper:

yet i don't think auto-clutch users are in any significant disadvantage as the heat/damage is basically about throttle control. yeah, not everybody has a clutch pedal - why not use a button clutch? that's like.. not so much like cheating.. :hide:

I sold auto parts for close to twenty years, when a normal car clutch is abused it tends to glaze the clutch plate which makes the two surfaces slip or produce hotspots on the pressure plate that cause shudder.

When there really abused i have seen the springs broken in the clutch plate and the fingers busted off the pressure plate.

Not to mention the thrust bearing can collapse or the pilot bearing in the flywheel can seize through heat.

Brass button style clutches offer minimal slippage but are utter pigs to get of the line, because there is next to no slip in them.

The clutch plate can also glaze up because it wasn't bedded in properly , very similar to brake pads doing the same thing.

I,m hoping this patch brings more reality into clutches and shifting , and that horrible sound of flats shifting is a thing of the past.

One last thing we got to play with a clutch setup out of an F1 car that Daikan made , there really small but have a heap of little carbon type clutch plates,very small diameter but a fairly long unit and really light.

I'm just excited about engine inertia, hopefully no more ridiculous down shifts....like 6th-1st as fast as you can. The engine will hopefully "try harder" to keep rotating at the same speed, in turn making it easier to lock up or not brake quick enough. Blips will be more important. Hotlappers were taking advantage of the ability to "shock" the auto-clutch system by down shifting extremely fast, this would keep the clutch in until it reached the car needed for the corner, like skip shifting with an H-pattern. In a real sequential you cannot "skip" shift, you must blip each down shift. Even in an H-pattern gearbox you can still clutch less down shift. Hopefully driving with the auto-clutch off and with out using it in the formula cars will be possible.

Quote from AndroidXP :

That raises the question, why would you do that when the topic was the torque acting on the clutch?

Ssshhh you, I'm trying to climb out of this hole, and you're not helping!

I think there is no advantage for either clutchless-sequential, or clutched shifts because of the updates to the clutch and sequential simulation, and more engine inertia.

This seems so, in that the clutch shift may be able to full throttle shift however, intern will cause a lot of slipage in the clutch caused by the updated engine and engine damage. In the same effect, the sequential shift now requires throttle lift in order to shift, also causing the compression to slow the car, if not timed correctly, diminishing its advantage over the clutch shift.

Both seem to have the same effect, although there may be some advantages for either not clear at the moment.

I think what NotSure has found is very significant.

Quote :

3h_box_hpat H-pattern gearbox
3h_box_bike motorbike gearbox
3h_box_sequ sequential gearbox
3h_box_seqi sequential gearbox with ignition cut
3h_box_semi paddle shift gearbox
3h_seq_hpat sequential operation of H-pattern gearbox

The ignition cut option sounds like a replacement to the throttle cut option and by the sounds of it will only be available in cars with a sequential gearbox. It sounds like for the H pattern cars we aren't going to get that luxury.

Personally I can't see a great advantage for a shifter over a sequentially shifted H pattern seeing as 90% of cars are shifted in a sequential sequence on a track anyway, the only possible advantage being using an unconventional pattern (ie. putting a lower gear in a high slot to allow for quick shifting for certain parts of a track). Hopefully however these new changes will be enough to convince me to build myself a proper 3 pedal setup

I want a lightened flywheel in my car - it takes a week for the engine rpm to drop of its own accord!

Quote from ajp71 :

The ignition cut option sounds like a replacement to the throttle cut option and by the sounds of it will only be available in cars with a sequential gearbox. It sounds like for the H pattern cars we aren't going to get that luxury.

I found these too and posted to the other thread, thinking I was the first one to find them, just to found out that they were already posted here In addition to those, there are these lines:

3h_tip_rtcg Release the throttle when changing gear to avoid overheating the clutch
3h_thisnost This car does not have a starter motor

Also seems like throttle cut is now a real feature instead of driving aid... because auto cut and blip options are gone! The string commands for these are missing from the new translation (unlike in patch x language file). I doubt renaming to something unrecognizable. BTW: auto clutch and brake help are still there.

We'll see what this means in the end but... would be stupid to wash down the toilet the new features by leaving auto cut as it is. Altough I'm suspicous about the blipping: doing it manually too, even with auto clutch? LFS finally goes hardcore? At least this way auto clutchers would get less advantage for doing less.

But what does this very likely removal mean for keyboard/mousers? So far if you have chosen keyboard as the controller, the blip/cut options in the options have been invisible and always enabled. I sure hope that would not be the case anymore. Can you think of getting passed by keyboard player on the straight, just because they are doing LESS but still always getting optimal upshifting? *waiting for keyboard players to flame me* :mad:

What I find most intriguing is the line "This car does not have a starter motor". Now THAT will be interesting. So in some cars, once you've stalled you're screwed . Maybe that's the case for the new FB02?

I hope that's true. Auto cut and blip really don't make any sense to me. Hopefully keyboard/mouse users will have those disabled too. It's not really that hard to blip / cut the throttle manually anyway, no matter what controller.

The new car should have a starter motor (I'd wager). As would the FOX, and quite possibly the F08 (I can't remember if F3000 cars had starters - I think some did, some didn't). The Sauber we all know won't, of course.

Quote from AndroidXP :

What I find most intriguing is the line "This car does not have a starter motor". Now THAT will be interesting. So in some cars, once you've stalled you're screwed .

Mini game: keep the engine running and get crane help or "EPIC FAIL" (replicating the Hamilton scene from Nurburgring).

Quote from tristancliffe :

The new car should have a starter motor (I'd wager). As would the FOX, and quite possibly the F08 (I can't remember if F3000 cars had starters - I think some did, some didn't). The Sauber we all know won't, of course.

We have to remember that many f1 cars (if not all) have an anti-stall thingy...

Quote from Fabri91 :

We have to remember that many f1 cars (if not all) have an anti-stall thingy...

That system declutches the engine if it thinks it's about to stall. I'd hope we have something similar in LFS, though things go wrong too fast it might not react in time to prevent a stall.

Just like in real life - it's still possible to stall an F1 car even with anti-stall.

Many fuel injected engines have a rudiemntary anti-stall mechanism. I'm not sure why, but when I gently lift the clutch on my car at idle, gradually pulling away at 800rpm, if I sink the clutch quickly, the revs climb for a moment up to 1,200 before dropping back down, as if it was adding a little bit of fuel to stop the revs dropping too low.

If the engine simulation has got as far as modelling fuel injector behavior, and the time it takes from injector in the plenum to reach the cylinder I'll be very suprised though.

(edit : tristan will correct something I've said, so I'm going to leave a gap for that...)








I would have thought going backwards with the clutch in a forwards gear as a result of a spin would be enough to stall any engine, no matter how "anti-stall" capable.

Looking at old footage of the turbo formula one cars, I wouldn't be suprised if the turbo GTR cut out on the start line of its own accord!

Quote from z3r0c00l :

Many fuel injected engines have a rudiemntary anti-stall mechanism. I'm not sure why, but when I gently lift the clutch on my car at idle, gradually pulling away at 800rpm, if I sink the clutch quickly, the revs climb for a moment up to 1,200 before dropping back down, as if it was adding a little bit of fuel to stop the revs dropping too low.

I'm not sure if it's intended as an 'anti-stall' system, but fuel injected cars will control their idle speed to a given setpoint. As you load the engine by feeding in the clutch the engine will have to put in more fuel to maintain idle speed. It's possible that if you dump the clutch too aggressively that the engine would move to a higher idle speed to avoid a stall.

Quote from tristancliffe :

The new car should have a starter motor (I'd wager). As would the FOX, and quite possibly the F08 (I can't remember if F3000 cars had starters - I think some did, some didn't). The Sauber we all know won't, of course.

I think all cars (including the BF1?) will have onboard starter motors as they are obligated to in series regulations. The issue come because most do not have an alternator and small batteries, so only have a limited number of starts before they flatten the battery. In the larger cars the starter motor may not be able to turn the engine without a slave at all.

Quote from z3r0c00l :

Many fuel injected engines have a rudiemntary anti-stall mechanism. I'm not sure why, but when I gently lift the clutch on my car at idle, gradually pulling away at 800rpm, if I sink the clutch quickly, the revs climb for a moment up to 1,200 before dropping back down, as if it was adding a little bit of fuel to stop the revs dropping too low.

That's simply the effect of disconnecting the resistance of the gearbox.

Quote from ajp71 :

I think all cars (including the BF1?) will have onboard starter motors as they are obligated to in series regulations.

Not F1 cars - they don't have to have a starter motor, and they don't fit one. The starter plugs directly into the gearbox and turns the cranky shafty.

No idea on the correction I was meant to do a post or two above though

I use the mouse to drive and keyboard for throttle / brake / clutch.
I tried to blip on downshift (XRG only...) like this and it's hell. Looking forward to it
At the moment I do not get enough incentive to be persistent at it, this might be the time!

If LFS goes this hardcore way then it will probably be general nightmare for a few weeks, and excellent fun in close races for all the missshifts and slipping pedals / fingers.
I wonder how that would affect longer races / leagues?