Awesome stuff guys!

Big mean daddy Kev steps in and makes mince meat out of BlueFlame, then all the little rats come in and finish him off.

Quote from Kev :

Africans; well that's an obvious one. We wouldn't have achieved much without our handy African slaves now would we? So let's welcome Africans to share in the fruits of the labours of their ancestors who we shackled and put to work under threat of death, most of whom lived in conditions that meant they wouldn't survive beyond the age of 35 anyway.

Yeah we - me - you - and everyone alive today must feel terrible for the horrible way those poor guys and girls were treated all those years ago. We - me - you went to Africa in our boats and forced them into shackles and shipped them over to England to work for us. And now we have to feel bad and let them do as they wish because we - me - you were so mean to them, except you ignore the fact that a lot of these black slaves were SOLD OFF by their OWN FAMILIES for food but who cares about any of that stuff.

Kev stop trying so hard and BlueFlame I suggest you watch what you say in future cause it will land you in deep sheeet.

Quote from Rooble :

Big mean daddy Kev

Here we go again...

Quote from Rooble :

Kev stop trying so hard

I seem to recall the last time you had anything to say to me was in a thread that went the same way as this one, and your only response on that occasion was a patronising little jibe. Why don't you just say what you want to say? Better out than in.

@mods: Lock please

Guys, back on topic please

Quote from Rooble :

Awesome stuff guys!


Kev stop trying so hard and BlueFlame I suggest you watch what you say in future cause it will land you in deep sheeet.

I enjoy rattling some cages.
It's very pathetic how little you can say before people brand you as this and that.

You'll get bored soon hanging around this forum, not fitting in anywhere. Then you'll move on.

Quote from tristancliffe :

You'll get bored soon hanging around this forum, not fitting in anywhere. Then you'll move on.

Hopefully

We could make this easier, if a mod would just ban his ass.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Why don't you just say what you want to say? Better out than in.

I'm sorry that my patronising comments offend you but you've got to admit, you don't half talk a load of bull squat.

Let all the Poles into the UK because their elders helped the RAF!!

Oh and don't forget those poor Africans that we enslaved 400 years ago, we should be feeling guilty for those too. Except that both you and I were never around during those times, but somehow we must repay the debt.

Is it cause I is white? <- I used a lowercase W incase xaotik is about.



Edit: I also think BlueFlames general message was, Why have nationalities if you're labelled a nazi for having pride in what nation you originate from. I think..? Do away with passports and such and all become ONE!

Quote from Rooble :

Edit: I also think BlueFlames general message was, Why have nationalities if you're labelled a nazi for having pride in what nation you originate from. I think..? Do away with passports and such and all become ONE!

Yea, thats exactly it, but I also said, If people don't use nationalities like they should be used, then the same thing happens with Race. If we are all 'the same human beings' why do we have different names for different types of people. I honestly believe that its meant to stay like that, and there is not to be HEAVY intergration between Races

Quote from Rooble :

Oh and don't forget those poor Africans that we enslaved 400 years ago, we should be feeling guilty for those too. Except that both you and I were never around during those times, but somehow we must repay the debt.

Is it cause I is white?

Quote from BlueFlame :

If people don't use nationalities like they should be used, then the same thing happens with Race. If we are all 'the same human beings' why do we have different names for different types of people.I honestly believe that its meant to stay like that, and there is not to be HEAVY intergration between Races

I just want to point out that all of the above are based on ad hoc rationalization and do not form valid arguments. The only way they can stand is by levelling and subverting the context of the running discussion thus rendering it pointless or changing it into a conflict. I think it's pretty obvious that nothing constructive will come out of it.

PS: Rooble, thanks for not using the capital "w" although it hurt you

Quote from Rooble :

I'm sorry that my patronising comments offend you but you've got to admit, you don't half talk a load of bull squat.

They don't offend me, they frustrate me because they don't contribute to the argument in any way. I don't mind criticism but just having a generic, half-hearted pop at me doesn't get us anywhere.

Quote from Rooble :

Let all the Poles into the UK because their elders helped the RAF!!

Oh and don't forget those poor Africans that we enslaved 400 years ago, we should be feeling guilty for those too.

My position is just as reasonable as "Close the borders! They're foreign and I'm frightened of them!"

Quote from Rooble :

Edit: I also think BlueFlames general message was, Why have nationalities if you're labelled a nazi for having pride in what nation you originate from. I think..? Do away with passports and such and all become ONE!

My point (which xaotik did a better job of making, to be fair) was exactly that. I don't think nationalism is a useful concept except for promoting conflict.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

My position is just as reasonable as "Close the borders! They're foreign and I'm frightened of them!"

No one's afraid we just don't need people who refuse to follow the system that's been in place for years, or people who fail to integrate into society properly. We don't want people to setup sub cities within cities and we don't want communities that exclude the people that try to fit in.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I don't think nationalism is a useful concept except for promoting conflict

You're looking at 'nationalism' in the wrong light, stop looking at everything in such a political sense it can't be good for you. The way I see it is like anything, people want to belong to a group and no one wants to be an outcast. Belonging to a nation is just a bigger group you wish to belong to, and with such you carry all the positive and negative that comes from being in that group. You obviously only want to see nationalism as a means of conflict, but I guess that's because you like to put your political correctness jargon on just about anything.

Quote from xaotik :

PS: Rooble, thanks for not using the capital "w" although it hurt you

Oh give it a rest you clown, in less then two posts you've already boxed into the 'racist nazi' container probably because I have a German flag beside my name, right?

Its not the colour of my skin but the colour of my flag, you racist pig!

Well Rooble, you must have it bad, because there is alot of people in England that look down on Germans, for what has happened in the past. Yet they think they aren't doing anything bad when they do it? IMO, your Nationality is your race, not nessacarily your colour of creed. Or at least, mocking someones nationality is a racist gesture, I don't think Xaotik meant anything like that Rooble, but I can tell you for sure, the fact the German flag is there, changes their opinions on you before, they listen to what you have to say. And if we are comparing to things they say I am wrong about, then they are just as bad as I.
Yet they still try to argue, as-if they are on the otherside of the fence, when in reality, they are judgemental to the point where they end up doing what they say is wrong.

Quote from BlueFlame :

I respect everyone. Just not fakers in MY country.

It's not YOUR country. If you are from Anglo-Saxon descent, you'd be a German or Dane. If your ancestors came from Normandy in 1066, you're a frog or a viking. From the bloody continent, anyhow. If you're Celtish: same, only a couple centuries longer.

According to current scientific knowledge we are all Ethiopians. So please show some hospitality to your compatriots.

Quote from Blackout :

but it hasn't been used in a few years anymore since when Netherlands switched to Euro like other civilized European countries.

Are you saying Britain isnt civilised? :slap:

Quote from Rooble :

Oh give it a rest you clown, in less then two posts you've already boxed into the 'racist nazi' container probably because I have a German flag beside my name, right?

No. I never boxed you into anything. I only returned a joke that you made relative to the "w" earlier - that's all. Couldn't care less what flag you got next to your name. Infact I've lived, worked and toured in Germany - thoroughly enjoyed it - also one of my cycling buddies here happens to be German.

Quote from Rooble :

Its not the colour of my skin but the colour of my flag, you racist pig!

In the context of flags I think the proper term would be "flagist pig".

From the above the image I get is that you've got some insecurity of your own to settle. Please do so in private - resorting to unprovoked direct insults just gets you going in the same vicious cycle.

/slaps Blackout.

Why... we have Nectar cards!

Quote from BlueFlame :

IMO, your Nationality is your race, not nessacarily your colour of creed.

That may very well be your opinion, but that is not the way nationality is defined.

The way you define it as linked to the citizen's race is nationalistic in the terms that you believe your nation should be "pure" and racist in basis because, obviously, you discriminate based on race. If that is your opinion then fine, who am I to tell you that you shouldn't be a racist following a nationalistic doctrine?

No matter what you believe currently it still does not change the fact that modern day nationalism was born in the 18th century precisely as the means of control and "dividing the pie" and is the root of many of today's extreme xenophobic tendacies.

Quote from BlueFlame :

mocking someones nationality is a racist gesture

No it is not necessarily a racist gesture.

To illustrate:

A white person from Greece mocking a black person from Kenya over his nationality can very well be considered racist given the difference in race and clearly depends on what the Greek is basing his mocking on - if he's making fun of their country's coat-of-arms for example which is a tribal version of a european coat-of-arms then it cannot be considered a racist remark.

The same white person mocking a white Sicilian about his nationality would not have a racist basis since they'd be of the same race.

But in the end the Kenyan, the Greek and the Italian are all grouped under the notion that they form three distinct nations. The irony is that both Greece and Italy have historically been far more ethnically diverse than Kenya and have had much more intense tribal warfare take place on their soil. Check out the "purity" of the tribes that make up Europe - it's insanely complicated - there is no one definite race.

Quote from xaotik :

No. I never boxed you into anything. I only returned a joke that you made relative to the "w" earlier - that's all. Couldn't care less what flag you got next to your name. Infact I've lived, worked and toured in Germany - thoroughly enjoyed it - also one of my cycling buddies here happens to be German.



In the context of flags I think the proper term would be "flagist pig".

From the above the image I get is that you've got some insecurity of your own to settle. Please do so in private - resorting to unprovoked direct insults just gets you going in the same vicious cycle.

If I had 'German' or 'Deutsch' beside my name would the term then be 'texist pig' - I don't think it would but whatever, I also notice you pull the 'I have a German friend' card. If this topic involved dark skinned people the response would be something along the lines of 'Yeh we're all certain you've got plenty of those' right?

All is fair and equal, or is it?

I'm sorry if my previous post came across a little blunt but it wasn't as serious as you made it out to be, I've lived in England for 18 years now and I've had my fair share of Nazi stick to go with it, there is no insecurity just experiences to help form the opinion I have today.

Quote from Rooble :

I also notice you pull the 'I have a German friend' card.

Well the poor guy can't help it - no matter how much he tries he's still German... and he goes mental if I call him Austrian :P

Admittedly he does have a hard time on occasion if we go to a remote village in the mountains and meet some old person who had been through the war. There was this old man one time at a feast set-up right after sheep-shearing that was staring him down something fierce - turned out he had lost most of his family to the nazis and had been tortured himself. We all drunk it off though in the end.

Quote from Rooble :

If this topic involved Dark skinned people the response would be something along the lines of 'Yeh we're all certain you've got plenty of those' right?

Unavoidably so, as I'm dark skinned and most of my friends are... The results of active melanin when living in a sunny country, you see.

(oh, word has it that due to some complex ancestry I might also have Seminole DNA mixed in the brew - so don't make me pull the "red man" card on you)

Quote from xaotik :

...

You failed to see my point but I'm sure you're happy now, your humour just totally defused and validated the situation - well done. Feel free to pull the red card I'm sure you've got plenty more white hate in your blood somewhere, right?

Quote from Rooble :

You failed to see my point but I'm sure you're happy now, your humour just totally defused and validated the situation - well done. Feel free to pull the red card I'm sure you've got plenty more white hate in your blood somewhere, right?

Well - since you want me to comment on your point, which I saw, but at the time had no comment for - opting for the humorous defusing as you pointed out - I'll write up this quick story that pretty much shows possibly what you were driving at:

A guy I know that lives in a village due south of here has an Albanian neighbor. The Albanian, a hard-working sort - works the fields - recently brought his family over after saving up for a few years. They're all very well liked and are excellent neighbors as my acquaintance tells me. One day, while he was rather busy and about to get into his truck to run some errands, the Albanian asks him for a favour - could he please go with him in his truck (since he didn't own a vehicle yet) to pick up some furniture and bring it back on said truck?

Suddenly, the man, due to subconscious social pressure was in a tight spot - he didn't want to decline because he felt that the Albanian would think he declined, even by just postponing the transport of the furniture, just because of his nationality yet he really had to get his work done. In the end he succumbed to the said social pressure and did his own work later.

I was told this story simply because he had it on his mind and was wondering how he - who never did discriminate - manage to get into the whole loop of thinking something he might do might be seen as a discriminating move.

My opinion on it, and I told him so, was that it was the fault of the media and several often over-the-top activist organizations that in many cases, despite trying to act in the opposing direction, only help strengthen the hold the idea of "nation" or "race" have on the average person's mind. Xenophobia is a sneaky poison.

Quote from wsinda :

It's not YOUR country. If you are from Anglo-Saxon descent, you'd be a German or Dane. If your ancestors came from Normandy in 1066, you're a frog or a viking. From the bloody continent, anyhow. If you're Celtish: same, only a couple centuries longer.

According to current scientific knowledge we are all Ethiopians. So please show some hospitality to your compatriots.

Well, If you are a white man like I, then we are Genetic Mutations of Ethiopians... so we are a different Species

I read what you said Xaotik, and i realise the Determined way for Nationality isn't how i would desire it to be

Quote from Rooble :

No one's afraid we just don't need people who refuse to follow the system that's been in place for years, or people who fail to integrate into society properly. We don't want people to setup sub cities within cities and we don't want communities that exclude the people that try to fit in.

Integration is a big issue, for sure. Unfortunately the right wing are using every unfortunate incident to paint multiculturalism as a failed experiment, rather than an ongoing process. My position is that the UK wouldn't be anything like it is today if we hadn't been routinely invaded over the centuries, so our "Britishness" is in part down to French traits, or Viking traits, and so on. Consequently, closing the borders to immigration seems downright anti-British if anything.

Quote from Rooble :

You're looking at 'nationalism' in the wrong light, stop looking at everything in such a political sense it can't be good for you. The way I see it is like anything, people want to belong to a group and no one wants to be an outcast.

Well, yeah. We're pack animals, we like to know where we belong, we like to have our little social groups. You see nationalism as being complementary to this innate desire whereas I see it as a way of exploiting it.

It's not that I politicise everything, it's just that I'm naturally cynical.