Please no "oh no another thread on this" posts here. Don't wanna read then don't read. But I don't need to hear it.

This is not a feature request thread!

This is not about LFS but racing games in general.

I hope I am taking a bit of a different view on AI realism or the lack of in racing games in general. Here is a small list of big annoyances I have made in over ten years of sim racing:

1) The first corner. In playing almost any racing game the first unrealistic thing you notice is that with a bit of skill you can come from the back of the grid to almost the first place in the run to the first corner. Now that's just insulting. Really silly that is. I mean wtf is that about!??? Any game that calls itself a simulator can not have me starting from the last place in a Minardi and be in the lead into the first corner.:banghead: One of the few games I noticed that this was not so bad was Grand Prix Legends... I guess the problem comes from the AI being too overly cautious around other cars!?

2) In the pack. When a lot of cars are together they go slow around corners so just go ahead and pass all ten of them. :banghead:

3) AI has awful corner entry and corner speed. Ever followed an AI car and at the end of the straight he jumps on the brakes 50 meters too early. Well, guess what, that happens in almost all games. Overtaking is made dim. Just line up the inside and brake at your normal braking point or a bit earlier. You can pass even 2-3 cars easily. Cos they brake freakin 50 meters too early!!!!!:banghead: In the middle of corners also the AI is just way slow.

4) Corner exit and straight speed. I don’t know if it’s the corner exit, limited straight speed or whatever, but in many games you just blitz past the competition on the straight.

5) Spinner on/near track. The AI has just two modes depending on the game. They either slam straight into the spinner or stand still on the track. I was playing the new WTCC 07 demo and I was slowing down off the racing line on the track to let the AI drivers past. Well, what they did was slow down also I mean like 50km/h. They even continued slow driving when well past my car.

6) cutting opportunity. A la 2007 eau rogue. If there is a small cutting opportunity on the track then in real life drivers have at least 2 wheels across the rumble strip. The AI will not do it but will drive unrealistically the correct line. Mind you, I’m not talking here about cutting a whole corner.

Summary. Thus, the normal race with AI goes like this. I start the race in last cos I couldn’t be bothered to qualify (why? See point 1.). At the start I’m 3rd into the first corner. At the second corner I overtake the other two cars in one swift move. Half a lap and 3 seconds ahead I decide there is no point in this. I slow down off the racing line to let the AI past. When they approach they slow down and slowly pas my crawling car. All cars slow down. Thus, to let the whole pack past, the first drivers will get way ahead. OK, now I start my race again by trying to overtake the AI. I overtake two AI cars into the next corner. Now I come up to a bunch of AI’s who get to a corner. They go really-really slow. I slam into them cos they surprised me with that earlier than usual braking. Etc… You get the point. I’m sick of that.

What games get a worthy mention:
GPL – the race starts are one of the most realistic. Maybe that’s because there weren’t too many slow first corner on the 1967 tracks… dunno
Generally – Drive around a track hotlaping and save the replay. Then upload the replay to the track and have the AI use those lines - suddenly the AI drives like you. They don’t brake in silly places and don’t take stupid lines through corners.


I just hope whatever Scawen is working on does not end up like this. And I hope all future game developers will also not make the AI like this. I know its easy to talk and apparently hard to do… But someone has to whine. /END RANT

then race real ppl? i prefer to play single player unless its drift or a cruise server but thats just cos i dont want to spend the time perfectin the racin lines and gettin to involved, after all its just a game and i only play to have fun(ur ideas will vary to mine obviously) it does just sound like u need to race some real ppl who wont let u pass on t1 cos they all have the same idea and wont crawl past, they will cut u up, defend the line, brake late etc, ai is fun but it never changes so its never challengin, my view on online racin is limited since i just dont do it often but my small amount of time doin it was a lot more fun than racin ai

Hmmm, all valid points - that "slowing down" bit I've only noticed on ISI games and only when you don't set the AI sliders to 100% or more. The most annoying is the "oh no - the player is approaching me! I must slow down and let him pass" that you can get if the "aggressiveness" slider is too low on those sims.

And yeah in LFS the crazy overtaking dive in the first corner is very pronounced in most of the tracks.

The only reason I use AIs is to have traffic on a track as I practice (in "race mode" with the latest patches) - hopefully the new LFS AI, with it's mad pitting skills, will be able to be just that without having to restart a practice session.

@p5srono: if you check PLAYLIFE's stats you'll see he has 27418km driven online - it's safe to assume that he has raced quite a few people online

Ever run AI on SO long rev? There's one turn they just can't do in any car, on the way down to the hairpin. They all end up in a big pile at the bottom of that hill after four or five laps.

Quote from p5srono :

then race real ppl? i prefer to play single player unless its drift or a cruise server but thats just cos i dont want to spend the time perfectin the racin lines and gettin to involved, after all its just a game and i only play to have fun(ur ideas will vary to mine obviously) it does just sound like u need to race some real ppl who wont let u pass on t1 cos they all have the same idea and wont crawl past, they will cut u up, defend the line, brake late etc, ai is fun but it never changes so its never challengin, my view on online racin is limited since i just dont do it often but my small amount of time doin it was a lot more fun than racin ai

What can I answer to this... I have raced people online, but I am talking about AI and unrealism. You are talking about something else... I say "the coffee needs more sugar" and you say "if the coffee is not sweet enough, try tee...".

AI cars go fairly slow when in a pack because they cannot know the skill of the other drivers. A human driver approaching T1 will be more cautious if he knows he is racing a couple of noobs; he'll drive closer to his limit when he is among experienced racers. The AI has no such notion, and will only react to things that happen. This effect gets stronger with the size of the pack: car #2 slows down a bit in response to car #1, then car #3 must slow down some more to avoid bumping into #2. Car #4 brakes even harder, etc.

The same holds for taking curbs (point 6). Human drivers can do this because they know how the car will behave. They anticipate the reaction, and can start countersteering before a wheel hits the curb. AIs can only respond. And on the more powerful cars any response will be too late.

BTW, in some games the AI can "cheat" the physics (e.g. by getting extra grip), to compensate for their inferior driving skills.

Hah, no I never run them on SO in general because the minute they get smart with warm tyres it's bye-bye for the next run. Biggest wrecking continuum I ever saw them do was with RACs in AS5 - it was like a spinning competition after a while.

And since I've changed the racing groove generation settings in the cfg to make it darker faster, after 15 or so laps I noticed they had also shifted their racing line over the last chicane - they all tried to cut it and would end up jumping over the kerb and right into the tyrestack. The racing groove was this black line going right into the grass.

Quote from wsinda :

BTW, in some games the AI can "cheat" the physics (e.g. by getting extra grip), to compensate for their inferior driving skills.

Yup - most noticeable when they get bumped. I forget which game it was that it was almost impossible to punt the AI off while they'd just tap you out with great ease.

I seem to recall in some racing games in the past, you would always have a higher straight line speed advantage. I mean massively so. I think it was because the AI would corner well and it was assumed kids would muck it up, so you were given a faster car (or they were given a slower one) and you'd zoom by everyone on the next straight. I seem to recall NFS2 was a bit like this.

Quote from Bob Smith :

I seem to recall in some racing games in the past, you would always have a higher straight line speed advantage. I mean massively so. I think it was because the AI would corner well and it was assumed kids would muck it up, so you were given a faster car (or they were given a slower one) and you'd zoom by everyone on the next straight. I seem to recall NFS2 was a bit like this.

NFS2 had a catch up system. If you fell behind the other cars would go slower. This would somehow also work in two player mode.

Ah, I hate catch up system...
the you pass the AI, get away by a minute or so, and then suddenly in a few moments you see AI blasting past you, that is so annoying, especially seeing that they slow down as they pass

Quote from PLAYLIFE :

NFS2 had a catch up system. If you fell behind the other cars would go slower. This would somehow also work in two player mode.

yes, but there was an option to turn it off, I always did that when found out I was doing nearly 300 mph in a McLaren, on the oval, while waiting for a lap in the pits

put it on hard

Quote from kester :

put it on hard

that is on hard

In LFS hard is easy and easy is....for.....ah you know.

The problem with most AI is that they run on 1 spline, or line, around the track. They dont fully understand the full width of the track and believe the angle of the next corner is the angle of whatever the spline is. Put simply, AI has been done this way since early games and it has stuck.

The reason it has stuck is simple. Try telling a games programmer that sending multiplayer packets n times a second is daft, that packets should be sent when the players controller input changes, and they laugh. They laugh because 'multiplayer packets are sent n times a second, this is how it is done'.

What do you expect from the most uncreative media industry in history?

Maybe i'm just bitter from too many years playing games and I should just shut up and get a job, but I believe that games are rarely made for the express purpose of making a good game. LFS is an exception in its development ethos - but you will find that most games are written to satisfy commercial directives.

A suite will come down from senior management and say "Our racing game this year [well, usually 3yr or so intervals] will be the same as last year with 'next generation' graphics, it sold well but we think we can do better with some new bells and whistles, so you'll put in pit crew on the stops, making em animate well lads, oh btw we'll use physics engine X and graphics engine Y and Dave there will link in a new force feedback model we picked up from our last corporate buyout - it supports rumble packs so that'll help it sell and get us a good bonus".

At no point do modern games ever get designed. They get decided.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Try telling a games programmer that sending multiplayer packets n times a second is daft, that packets should be sent when the players controller input changes, and they laugh. They laugh because 'multiplayer packets are sent n times a second, this is how it is done'.

I understand the idea there but there needs to be an upper cap to prevent excessive bandwidth usage. Seeing as how, long straights aside, you're almost continually moving something, you'd sit at the upper limit all the time anyway, so in fact you end up with the current method, but save a little bandwidth now and then.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Maybe i'm just bitter from too many years playing games and I should just shut up and get a job decided.

I did that when I was 19, still regret it, so... DON'T

Quote :

...but you will find that most games are written to satisfy commercial directives.

Maybe it has something to do with people wanting to get paid for their work?
All you say is true, but then every now and then a significant step up in terms of physics and graphics engine comes along, once people get fed up with the reworked bells 'n' whistles approach, which takes the technology onto a new plateau for another 5 years. That's what we're all waiting for.

Quote from Eleanor SpeedGT :

In LFS hard is easy and easy is....for.....ah you know.

When I started LFS, I could barely get past a medium opponent.

I thought that hard was too hard, but after some practise it was a piece of cake!

However, in S1 I find it VERY hard to overtake ANY AI...

That's why I play S2 =P.

Seeing we get better AI soon*, I hope that the AI won't be pussy.
But, I still think racing online is better, but the new AI will get me off-line for some time too! =)

[size]*n.b. soon is not defined.[/size]

Quote from PLAYLIFE :

1) The first corner. In playing almost any racing game the first unrealistic thing you notice is that with a bit of skill you can come from the back of the grid to almost the first place in the run to the first corner. Now that's just insulting. Really silly that is. I mean wtf is that about!??? Any game that calls itself a simulator can not have me starting from the last place in a Minardi and be in the lead into the first corner.:banghead: One of the few games I noticed that this was not so bad was Grand Prix Legends... I guess the problem comes from the AI being too overly cautious around other cars!?

That's because the AI choose the standard trajectory for the start, and leave the other side wide open.

Quote from Bob Smith :

I understand the idea there but there needs to be an upper cap to prevent excessive bandwidth usage. Seeing as how, long straights aside, you're almost continually moving something, you'd sit at the upper limit all the time anyway, so in fact you end up with the current method, but save a little bandwidth now and then.

Of course every application requires some consideration about how best to deploy the technique, but it does really work and very well at that. But the fact it works is not really the point I was making, rather, some things are just done the way they are in this industry "because thats how it is done" and not because thats the best way to do things.

A lot of games have very little unique code, they are various off the shelf 'engines' all bolted together and the game itself is mostly made by level designers in scripts and media artists, with the only thing left for the coder to do is linking the various 'engines'.

Sure, every now and then something original does come along and change everything. There's some greats in gaming history, and there will continue to be innovation - but the bulk of new games will always be rehashes and technical innovation really isnt as quick in the software industry as it appears at first glance, and often this is just the lack of applied common sense - which should be a compulsory subject for all trainee programmers.