So we must assume that, in your words, the chief designer is not part of a wider team, the racers are not part of a wider team and a test driver that is directly tied to car development is not part of the wider team, and the involvement of all these people having key positions inside the team doesn't mean that the wider team is involved. What more do you need, Ron Dennis' dog being involved? I really don't understand. This sounds like comedic science fiction to me. Anyway, you're free to believe what you want, I'll keep believing that Santa Claus doesn't exist.

Can anybody tell me what's wrong with what McLaren did? It seems to me that they asked a Ferrari employee for data on the Ferrari car and he gave it to them.
I don't really see how this can be described as 'spying' unless there was some sort of pressure put on Stepney to give the data to McLaren.

Article 151(c) of the Sporting Code so vague that almost anything the FIA doesn't like could be punished should they wish.

I think this sets a dangerous precedent in F1. Journalists have always had 'sources' inside teams to give them hints on pit strategy, etc... If a journalist tells Team A that they've heard Team B will stop on lap X, will they be accused of spying?

Quote from StewartFisher :

Can anybody tell me what's wrong with what McLaren did? It seems to me that they asked a Ferrari employee for data on the Ferrari car and he gave it to them.
I don't really see how this can be described as 'spying' unless there was some sort of pressure put on Stepney to give the data to McLaren.

Article 151(c) of the Sporting Code so vague that almost anything the FIA doesn't like could be punished should they wish.

I think this sets a dangerous precedent in F1. Journalists have always had 'sources' inside teams to give them hints on pit strategy, etc... If a journalist tells Team A that they've heard Team B will stop on lap X, will they be accused of spying?

So basically it would be ok to bribe the other team's technicians and whatever to get information about their cars? Taking spyshots is on whole different level than getting the data directly from a employee of another team. The employee knows it is against his contract as does the other team. Just because people mention some classified stuff to their friends doesn't mean that it is ok - or acceptable.

Quote from StewartFisher :

Can anybody tell me what's wrong with what McLaren did?

Just reverse the facts: imagine that what McLaren did was done by Ferrari and everything will be instantly clear, and extremely serious.

I bet Vodafone are regretting giving every team member 500 free text messages a month.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

I bet Vodafone are regretting giving every team member 500 free text messages a month.

LOL, Good One.

doesnt look great on the two drivers records now does it.. i mean hamilton has only just started F1 in this season, and now all of this crap has come to light.. cant be very pleasent for him. Same with Alonso. On the ITV Qualifying broacast for the Round at Spa, they said that Alonso could possibly want to move on from this.. and by this they meant move on from mclaren. Because lets face it, no driver wants to be asociated with a so called "cheating" team.

I also think that the fine incurred from this is rather big... and i hope that an appeal can be launched.. to get it reduced maybe.

meh.. who knows what the future holds...

Im just looking forward to todays race in an hour or so.

Quote from Hyperactive :

So basically it would be ok to bribe the other team's technicians and whatever to get information about their cars? Taking spyshots is on whole different level than getting the data directly from a employee of another team. The employee knows it is against his contract as does the other team. Just because people mention some classified stuff to their friends doesn't mean that it is ok - or acceptable.

No, I specifically mentioned that if pressure had been put on Stepney to provide the information (or financial reward), then it would be wrong. I don't think it's acceptable for people to pass on confidential information but I think that should be Ferrari's problem, not McLaren's.

Quote from StewartFisher :

No, I specifically mentioned that if pressure had been put on Stepney to provide the information (or financial reward), then it would be wrong.

And since there was no pressure on Stepney it should be right?
If I stole the source code of the company I work for and gave it to the chief developer of another company I'd be guilty of intellectual property violations, and the other company would be guilty too. I'd just be fired and prosecuted, with perfectly good reasons. And I'd be convicted, no matter if I saw any money or if I was pressured.

Things just work this way.

Edit: and no, Ferrari isn't at fault. Not even slightly. This unauthorised flow of information went from Ferrari to McLaren, so Ferrari has been damaged while not being guilty of any wrongdoing. Such things shouldn't be even discussed, or mentioned. They are obvious for me and they are obvious for lawyers and judges.

"u got brk blnce 4 red carz nige? frum Peddy"

"yeh lemme chek mi documentz i fink tis on pg204 i will email dem 2 u frum mikey"

"wht do u call slo drivar in a coke bottle...lewis hamiltun LOLZ! frum Fanny"

Mosley's explanations on why McLaren drivers didn't loose their points too: http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php ... item.php?fes_art_id=32822

Yes, Mosley is clearly at unease (but not angry or annoyed) when the BBC reporter asks him about driver points not being taken away because he would have stripped them. All the lawyers in the council thought the same thing. But the outcome of the vote went in the opposite direction, and since that vote counts, driver points were not stripped.

Quote from Albieg :

And since there was no pressure on Stepney it should be right?
If I stole the source code of the company I work for and gave it to the chief developer of another company I'd be guilty of intellectual property violations, and the other company would be guilty too. I'd just be fired and prosecuted, with perfectly good reasons. And I'd be convicted, no matter if I saw any money or if I was pressured.

Things just work this way.

Well, I don't know enough about IP law to say whether it's legal to receive free information from an employee. I haven't made my mind up about the situation, I'd just like to know exactly what rules McLaren have broken.

Quote :

Edit: and no, Ferrari isn't at fault. Not even slightly. This unauthorised flow of information went from Ferrari to McLaren, so Ferrari has been damaged while not being guilty of any wrongdoing. Such things shouldn't be even discussed, or mentioned. They are obvious for me and they are obvious for lawyers and judges.

I wasn't suggesting that Ferrari should be punished, just that the fault might lie with them since it was their employee and their security which was compromised.

Quote from StewartFisher :

Well, I don't know enough about IP law to say whether it's legal to receive free information from an employee.

It's extremely simple, or better, it is obvious. If those information are protected (that's why we call such things intellectual property) you're not allowed to use them as you like. This right can only be held by the owner of the property, and in this case it's not McLaren, it's not Stepney. It's Ferrari. Those information are far from being free.

And again, if someone steals your car because you left your keys in it you're not responsible for the theft. It's always the thief who's criminally responsible. Your insurance could have something to say, but not a judge.

http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature. ... mes_Allen&PO_ID=40674

James Allen's thoughts on the whole thing. Though he makes a few presumptions (and we can all guess which way they lean), I think that's pretty fair: it's actually how I feel about the whole thing. Of course, if the whole thing doesn't become clear in the next week or two, we will know how strongly Ron Dennis feels about integrity when McLaren reveal their driver line-up for next year. If it includes Alonso and de la Rosa as a test driver, then clearly there's something sketchy going on. I guess McLaren should be able to break their contract with Alonso on the basis of him being involved in this.

Sniff Petrol's, um, light-hearted look at the affair: http://www.sniffpetrol.com/

They've sniffed too much glue, not petrol.

Edit: and that's not lighthearted, it's just clueless.

Just did this

The Raikkönen comments are the best.

Quote from Albieg :

It's extremely simple, or better, it is obvious. If those information are protected (that's why we call such things intellectual property) you're not allowed to use them as you like. This right can only be held by the owner of the property, and in this case it's not McLaren, it's not Stepney. It's Ferrari. Those information are far from being free.

Indeed. I don't understand why it's so difficult for some people to understand. If this was a civil case there wouldn't be two questions asked. If someone takes information, documents and such from company to other, is the company using the information, or even possessing it, guilty to espionage and information theft. There are court cases being prepared both in England and Italy, and they will probably end up Ferrari winning them because that is how the stuff works!

Brilliant poster by the way, new desktop.

Excellent poster for a less than excellent movie.

Nice one deggis :up:

Quote from deggis :

Just did this

Hah! We, of course, now need a higher resolution and vector type one for printing you know...

Quote from xaotik :

Hah! We, of course, now need a higher resolution and vector type one for printing you know...

I'm afraid that's as high res as it's going to get because I made it in this size and I know nothing about vector graphics

The FIA posted the transcripts of the World Motor Sport Council hearings in Paris:

http://www.fia.com/mediacentre ... /September/190907-01.html