The online racing simulator
Live for All Speed.
2
(43 posts, started )
#26 - CSU1
Quote from neglouseight :I'm not posting this to start some off the topic discussion. Or to have people flame about threads that had been posted years ago. Some topics need to resurface from time to time so they aren't lost forever.

Live for Speed is wonderful, and I love it. In it's title it says Live for Speed, doesn't say Live for four wheel automobile racing Speed. Why not make it all racing. Making LFS the Meca for online racing fans.

What I am picturing. Imagine the realism we already have in LSF, but you are racing your motorcyle on the tracks we have now. New challenges for racers, skinners, and setups. New types of racers will be coming to LFS.

I'm a Formula One fan, so prefer that type of racing above all else, but in the interest of community and all racers everywhere. Adding more types of race cars such as a CART/INDY type, NASCAR type, Rally type, even Truck Racing. MotoCross, SuperCross, MotoGP, World Super Bike.

Now let's take this further, we now have the best online community for Cars, Bikes and Trucks, why not power boat racing? There are many types of boat racing. Currently some of the LFS tracks are near water. Even more challenges come in to effect now.

New types of races, that aren't lap based, but more like rally, where you do one very long track, that is broken in to sections.



lol, there's no harm in dreaming I suppose.+1
Quote from Motordirex :<snip>
Gran Tourismo and Tourist Trophy. Both for Playstation and two of best console sims ever made. Gran Tourismo set the stage for racing sims, and what did they do, took it that much further with a bike sim.

EA Sports with EA Superbike 2000/2001 and EA's Sports Car GT for PC. SCGT was one of the first games for PC that had a cult following of mods, cars and leagues. I ran a touring car league with SCGT 5 years ago and it was awesome. What killed it was only being able to race 4 cars online at a time. EA Superbike 2001 is better then Playstations TT as far as physics go. Graphics arent as nice, but the ride was alot more true to real racing then any other bike sim made. EA Superbike 2001 like its SCGT cousin, lacked in the online play.
<snip>

If you haven't already, check out TT Superbikes (aka Suzuki TT Superbikes).

http://ps2.ign.com/objects/489/489081.html

NOT to be confused with Blackbean's pile of crap called Suzuki Superbikes II: Riding Challenge.
Quote from me :All the decent sims I know concentrate on one form of vehicle and I think that's how sim-fans like it.

Quote from Motordirex :
No its not, thats just the way it went for the longest time.

Gran Turismo and Tourist Trophy. Both for Playstation and two of best console sims ever made. Gran Turismo set the stage for racing sims, and what did they do, took it that much further with a bike sim.

EA Sports with EA Superbike 2000/2001 and EA's Sports Car GT for PC. SCGT was one of the first games for PC that had a cult following of mods, cars and leagues. I ran a touring car league with SCGT 5 years ago and it was awesome. What killed it was only being able to race 4 cars online at a time. EA Superbike 2001 is better then Playstations TT as far as physics go. Graphics arent as nice, but the ride was a lot more true to real racing then any other bike sim made. EA Superbike 2001 like its SCGT cousin, lacked in the online play.

Bikes are harder to ride in sims then cars are naturally...the same in real life. 90% of motorcycle fans are enthusiasts, meaning they also ride. There are wack loads more of armchair racers out there for cars than motorcycles.

Racing bikes isnt for everyone. If you havent ridden a real bike, or raced a bike sim, you have no right to say that you hope LFS stays with 4 wheels. If you have ridden or raced a bike sim and dont think bikes for LFS is a good idea, its because its to hard for you and you cant do it. Cars are 80% car, 20% driver...bikes are 20% bike, 80% rider.

First, Gran Turismo isn't a sim by any stretch of the imagination (haven't played Tourist Trophy). You can't even induce proper, controllable oversteer in it, even in a 500+hp RWD car, which is just one of its uniquely un-sim-like qualities (we'll leave the laughable modding, lack of damage, inexplicable tyre behaviour and questionable car inclusions for another time). Sports Car GT was a ham-fisted attempt at a car sim and subsequently got hosed by several titles that came after it (and even some that came before it), which speaks volumes about its quality. I never raced it online - 4 cars only? Hardly worth calling it an online sim imho.

I like where you say (essentially) that if I'm not a rider, I can have no valid argument against bikes in LFS because I don't know what I'm on about - but then if I am a rider and still don't think they're a good idea for LFS then I'm basically too crap to be able to do it properly or I'm scared of being beaten by some guy on the internet (that doesn't stop me from playing LFS with cars now, why would it stop me from playing LFS with bikes later?). Great way to try and kill the discussion before it even begins.

I grew up riding motorcycles, but don't much anymore - I was a rider, so there I am in a third category, nimbly circumventing the terms of discussion you laid down I still love bikes, I still stay up all night watching MotoGP (Stoner/Ducati ftw) and still hop on one whenever I can (which isn't often enough).

I think that LFS will just stay where it is. Games can try and do everything (GTA, for example, has bikes, cars, boats, planes, choppers, etc and does a great job) but a simulation should be focused. Flight sims don't have you racing to your Learjet in your accurately-modelled Porsche Carrera, people who buy a WW2 game for one thing (like the combat and accurately-modelled weapons) aren't going to be interested in how quickly a Sherman tank reloads - just that it does, car sims don't crossover into boats and bike sims don't include cars. It's not just conservatism or stubbornness, it makes sense to the player and the game developer. If crossover sims actually worked with players and sold well, you can bet EA would've released one already.

Just on the bike game topic, I've played a few bike games on my PS2 (MotoGP 4 most recently, not fun) and not one of them had me immersed the way a good car sim does. I've ridden and driven both for ages and the difference between sitting on a bike and being an integral part of its weight, balance and control and just sitting in a car and really only being involved mechanically is vast. Too vast, imho, for any PC game to be able to simulate properly without the right equipment.

In the end, if they include bikes in LFS, I think you'd just end up with a whole bunch of people paying for a whole bunch of stuff they'll never use (either the cars or the bikes), or you'll get people not wanting to buy the game in the first place because it has a bunch of stuff they're not interested in. I think that's why people love the dedicated, focused aspect of simulations -they're focused on one thing that they love. It's like a hobby - one single thing that's obsessed over by the hobbyist.

OK, sorry to go on like that. It's a slow work day
If youve played the Gran Tourismo series from the beginning, youd know your statement about the game is incorrect. GT1 was the first kick at the can for the Playstation to test the waters, then GT2 came along and really got into it. The driving from the 2 first versions were alot harder because GT3 and 4 had their own version of traction control. They moved away from a real sim and made it a litle more easier to drive for the average gamer. Game companies want to attract people from all gaming genres. If that wasnt the case, GT3 and 4 cars would be just as difficult to use.

SGCT paved the way for alot of sims. Yes it sucked for online but if not for that game, alot including even LFS might not be what it is today. SCGT: great game, now how do we improve on this? Here we are.

I think your going completely overboard by saying if you cant mimic a motorcycle proper in a sim its not worth it...thats just retarded. Whats mimiced in a car sim...force feeback is really all there is.

Do you feel the g-forces? No.

Does your stomach go into into your chest when you take a sim car through Paddock Hill Bend at Brands Hatch? No.

Thers no "real" sense of speed...only compared to when you go from a slower car to a faster car. I can go along the highway at 120kmh in my Prelude and it feel alot faster in real life then any sim doing twice or 3 times the speed. Its a simulation!

Simulation: A simulation is an imitation of some real thing, state of affairs, or process. Simulation is used in many contexts, including the modeling of natural systems or human systems in order to gain insight into their functioning.

Simulations are never 100% real, so why shoot down the idea of bikes because of the real control physics involved in real racing? You cannot beat Casey Stoner at Phillip Island in a video game and expect the same result in real life. No top notch sim racer will ever be able to drive as good in real life as they do in the game under the same conditions.

LFS hasnt even sold more then 10,000 licenses. And for a game this good, I cant understand why...except for this: there are other sims out there and they are all competing for the same bit of simulator real estate. There arent any bike sims out there for online like we'd get with LFS. Lots of bike games, yes, but no online sims. Why not be the first and set the stage.

If its a matter of funding...well f*&k, I'll fund it myself to see bikes race around the wicked circuits of LFS. How much do I need?

Sorry to rant but you pissed me off...haha
If you knew about real car physics you'd know that no GT game was ever a simulation, despite what the shiney box says. GT 1 and 2 were rediculously easy to drive. I have all 4, and I enjoyed all 4, but that doesn't mean its a sim. They are borderline arcade games, not simulations.

Your comment about g-forces and such regarding car sims; true. Car sims don't have G-forces. Bike sims don't have them either. But the integral part of racing bikes is the weight transfer of the rider. The way they lean in corners and all that jazz. Without being able to control or feel that movement, you simply have a car sim with two wheels instead of four. THAT is the problem with bike sims.

"LFS hasnt even sold more then 10,000 licenses." Wrong there, man. Over a year ago it was confirmed that LFS has sold over 20 000.

I understand you want bikes in LFS. Quite frankly I'd enjoy them, too, despite the problems they create.
Quote from MAGGOT :

"LFS hasnt even sold more then 10,000 licenses." Wrong there, man. Over a year ago it was confirmed that LFS has sold over 20 000.

I understand you want bikes in LFS. Quite frankly I'd enjoy them, too...

Sweet on both comments!

Sad to think though with GT4 that it sold over a million copies in Japan alone its first week. But I think thats a good thing because you dont have 980,000 other idiot racers clogging up the servers and causing crashes on track...the LFS demo was bad enough for that. Games like this weed out the haves and have nots when it comes to sim racing. If its hard, back to Mario Kart there Princess.

Well if any development of a LFS bike sim does come about, sign me up for testing.
I personaly do not feel that with todays technology we can simulate a morotcycle in such a way for it to feel as natural in the simulation as a car currently can feel in a simulation. So much of the bike experance is the physical sensation and the way the g-forces play on you and the bike. Sure its posible to simulate but as a biker I woudl never use them in LFS.
Boats are one thing but TRUCKS? C'mon!
It was primarily a joke

But I thought it was refering to the likes of F-150's and other half-baked identity crisis vehicles.

The video is pretty funny although it does seem like a bit of a gimmick. But I bet it would be actually quite challenging
Quote from Gimpster :I personaly do not feel that with todays technology we can simulate a morotcycle in such a way for it to feel as natural in the simulation as a car currently can feel in a simulation. So much of the bike experance is the physical sensation and the way the g-forces play on you and the bike. Sure its posible to simulate but as a biker I woudl never use them in LFS.

You cant simulate g-forces in a car either.
#37 - w126
I hope that in S3 phase LFS is going to become more diverse and versatile instead of just providing more of the same. Bikes? Why not? It is very hard to do properly because of controller limitations, but LFS is already very configurable and innovative when it comes to controllers, so there is hope for some more great ideas in this area. It would be hard not to mention rallying here, with an appropriate new game mode. Also some off-road stuff in the spirit of Screamer 4x4 could be very interesting, deformable terrain, rain...

However, boats and planes just don't make any sense. Trying to do them would mean losing focus completely.
What about a "cheetah" added to LFS?)
Simulating a cheetah and chasing a gazelle .
Quote from ZORER :What about a "cheetah" added to LFS?)

I remember on TV when I was a kid, they had a drag race with a cheetah, a horse, and a Porsche 911. Guess which one kicked everyone's a$$?

A hint, the horse got spooked from the Porsche and perhaps the BF1 in LFS might have had a chance.
Quote from ZORER :What about a "cheetah" added to LFS?)
Simulating a cheetah and chasing a gazelle .

Will the gazelle already been injured and or will the Cheetah be with friends...so many factors you need to think about with a wild life simulator. Click here to see what I mean.
Quote from Motordirex :Will the gazelle already been injured and or will the Cheetah be with friends...so many factors you need to think about with a wild life simulator. Click here to see what I mean.

no, and no. gazelle is not injured and cheetah won't be friends. In fact i'd expect more clever questions like,"-which track?" or " how many laps?" or "-what about pitstops?"...
I remember years ago on SpeedTV they had Semi-Truck races from Europe on a lot. It was kind of fun to watch them doing 160 mph in the rain. lol
Quote from neglouseight :

New types of races, that aren't lap based, but more like rally, where you do one very long track, that is broken in to sections.

That's what i think MUST be in LFS. It is the only thing that can be done,(reminds me of trackmania that i ditched ages ago) because it would behave like a race track, with a start and a finish line. Bwt, the sections bit is a ball of shit
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Live for All Speed.
(43 posts, started )
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