First, Gran Turismo isn't a sim by any stretch of the imagination (haven't played Tourist Trophy). You can't even induce proper, controllable oversteer in it, even in a 500+hp RWD car, which is just one of its uniquely un-sim-like qualities (we'll leave the laughable modding, lack of damage, inexplicable tyre behaviour and questionable car inclusions for another time). Sports Car GT was a ham-fisted attempt at a car sim and subsequently got hosed by several titles that came after it (and even some that came before it), which speaks volumes about its quality. I never raced it online - 4 cars only? Hardly worth calling it an online sim imho.
I like where you say (essentially) that if I'm not a rider, I can have no valid argument against bikes in LFS because I don't know what I'm on about - but then if I am a rider and still don't think they're a good idea for LFS then I'm basically too crap to be able to do it properly or I'm scared of being beaten by some guy on the internet (that doesn't stop me from playing LFS with cars now, why would it stop me from playing LFS with bikes later?). Great way to try and kill the discussion before it even begins.
I grew up riding motorcycles, but don't much anymore - I was a rider, so there I am in a third category, nimbly circumventing the terms of discussion you laid down I still love bikes, I still stay up all night watching MotoGP (Stoner/Ducati ftw) and still hop on one whenever I can (which isn't often enough).
I think that LFS will just stay where it is. Games can try and do everything (GTA, for example, has bikes, cars, boats, planes, choppers, etc and does a great job) but a simulation should be focused. Flight sims don't have you racing to your Learjet in your accurately-modelled Porsche Carrera, people who buy a WW2 game for one thing (like the combat and accurately-modelled weapons) aren't going to be interested in how quickly a Sherman tank reloads - just that it does, car sims don't crossover into boats and bike sims don't include cars. It's not just conservatism or stubbornness, it makes sense to the player and the game developer. If crossover sims actually worked with players and sold well, you can bet EA would've released one already.
Just on the bike game topic, I've played a few bike games on my PS2 (MotoGP 4 most recently, not fun) and not one of them had me immersed the way a good car sim does. I've ridden and driven both for ages and the difference between sitting on a bike and being an integral part of its weight, balance and control and just sitting in a car and really only being involved mechanically is vast. Too vast, imho, for any PC game to be able to simulate properly without the right equipment.
In the end, if they include bikes in LFS, I think you'd just end up with a whole bunch of people paying for a whole bunch of stuff they'll never use (either the cars or the bikes), or you'll get people not wanting to buy the game in the first place because it has a bunch of stuff they're not interested in. I think that's why people love the dedicated, focused aspect of simulations -they're focused on one thing that they love. It's like a hobby - one single thing that's obsessed over by the hobbyist.
OK, sorry to go on like that. It's a slow work day
If youve played the Gran Tourismo series from the beginning, youd know your statement about the game is incorrect. GT1 was the first kick at the can for the Playstation to test the waters, then GT2 came along and really got into it. The driving from the 2 first versions were alot harder because GT3 and 4 had their own version of traction control. They moved away from a real sim and made it a litle more easier to drive for the average gamer. Game companies want to attract people from all gaming genres. If that wasnt the case, GT3 and 4 cars would be just as difficult to use.
SGCT paved the way for alot of sims. Yes it sucked for online but if not for that game, alot including even LFS might not be what it is today. SCGT: great game, now how do we improve on this? Here we are.
I think your going completely overboard by saying if you cant mimic a motorcycle proper in a sim its not worth it...thats just retarded. Whats mimiced in a car sim...force feeback is really all there is.
Do you feel the g-forces? No.
Does your stomach go into into your chest when you take a sim car through Paddock Hill Bend at Brands Hatch? No.
Thers no "real" sense of speed...only compared to when you go from a slower car to a faster car. I can go along the highway at 120kmh in my Prelude and it feel alot faster in real life then any sim doing twice or 3 times the speed. Its a simulation!
Simulation:A simulation is an imitation of some real thing, state of affairs, or process. Simulation is used in many contexts, including the modeling of natural systems or human systems in order to gain insight into their functioning.
Simulations are never 100% real, so why shoot down the idea of bikes because of the real control physics involved in real racing? You cannot beat Casey Stoner at Phillip Island in a video game and expect the same result in real life. No top notch sim racer will ever be able to drive as good in real life as they do in the game under the same conditions.
LFS hasnt even sold more then 10,000 licenses. And for a game this good, I cant understand why...except for this: there are other sims out there and they are all competing for the same bit of simulator real estate. There arent any bike sims out there for online like we'd get with LFS. Lots of bike games, yes, but no online sims. Why not be the first and set the stage.
If its a matter of funding...well f*&k, I'll fund it myself to see bikes race around the wicked circuits of LFS. How much do I need?
If you knew about real car physics you'd know that no GT game was ever a simulation, despite what the shiney box says. GT 1 and 2 were rediculously easy to drive. I have all 4, and I enjoyed all 4, but that doesn't mean its a sim. They are borderline arcade games, not simulations.
Your comment about g-forces and such regarding car sims; true. Car sims don't have G-forces. Bike sims don't have them either. But the integral part of racing bikes is the weight transfer of the rider. The way they lean in corners and all that jazz. Without being able to control or feel that movement, you simply have a car sim with two wheels instead of four. THAT is the problem with bike sims.
"LFS hasnt even sold more then 10,000 licenses." Wrong there, man. Over a year ago it was confirmed that LFS has sold over 20 000.
I understand you want bikes in LFS. Quite frankly I'd enjoy them, too, despite the problems they create.
Sad to think though with GT4 that it sold over a million copies in Japan alone its first week. But I think thats a good thing because you dont have 980,000 other idiot racers clogging up the servers and causing crashes on track...the LFS demo was bad enough for that. Games like this weed out the haves and have nots when it comes to sim racing. If its hard, back to Mario Kart there Princess.
Well if any development of a LFS bike sim does come about, sign me up for testing.
I personaly do not feel that with todays technology we can simulate a morotcycle in such a way for it to feel as natural in the simulation as a car currently can feel in a simulation. So much of the bike experance is the physical sensation and the way the g-forces play on you and the bike. Sure its posible to simulate but as a biker I woudl never use them in LFS.
I hope that in S3 phase LFS is going to become more diverse and versatile instead of just providing more of the same. Bikes? Why not? It is very hard to do properly because of controller limitations, but LFS is already very configurable and innovative when it comes to controllers, so there is hope for some more great ideas in this area. It would be hard not to mention rallying here, with an appropriate new game mode. Also some off-road stuff in the spirit of Screamer 4x4 could be very interesting, deformable terrain, rain...
However, boats and planes just don't make any sense. Trying to do them would mean losing focus completely.
That's what i think MUST be in LFS. It is the only thing that can be done,(reminds me of trackmania that i ditched ages ago) because it would behave like a race track, with a start and a finish line. Bwt, the sections bit is a ball of shit