The online racing simulator
Live for All Speed.
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(43 posts, started )
Live for All Speed.
I'm not posting this to start some off the topic discussion. Or to have people flame about threads that had been posted years ago. Some topics need to resurface from time to time so they aren't lost forever.

Live for Speed is wonderful, and I love it. In it's title it says Live for Speed, doesn't say Live for four wheel automobile racing Speed. Why not make it all racing. Making LFS the Meca for online racing fans.

What I am picturing. Imagine the realism we already have in LSF, but you are racing your motorcyle on the tracks we have now. New challenges for racers, skinners, and setups. New types of racers will be coming to LFS.

I'm a Formula One fan, so prefer that type of racing above all else, but in the interest of community and all racers everywhere. Adding more types of race cars such as a CART/INDY type, NASCAR type, Rally type, even Truck Racing. MotoCross, SuperCross, MotoGP, World Super Bike.

Now let's take this further, we now have the best online community for Cars, Bikes and Trucks, why not power boat racing? There are many types of boat racing. Currently some of the LFS tracks are near water. Even more challenges come in to effect now.

New types of races, that aren't lap based, but more like rally, where you do one very long track, that is broken in to sections.
theres a thought. but it's not half gonna take AGES to do. also the main priority now, i'd say is probably for 4 wheeled action...

although maybe a bike release in S4, if it goes that far?
Quote from BenjiMC :although maybe a bike release in S4, if it goes that far?

Even S3 isn't absolutely officially confirmed.
#4 - joen
plus. there won't be an S4. S3 is certain though.

I think boat racing is taking it a step too far though. Although it could be fun, it would require massive physics additions. And Scawen has his hands full on completing the car physics alone.
Scawen likes bikes and there are some hints he might want to do that, but the problem for players lie in the controls though. What would you use to realistically drive a bike? A steering wheel? A mouse?
Your other suggestions are feasible though and have been discussed many times before.
Me, I'm waiting for the day we'll have karts... *dreams away*
ummm, well the bikes,trucks etc sound very good fun, but boat racing? i really dont see the point in that, i think that'll take the true point of lfs, IMHO, none of this is ever going to happen, the only thing i think will be introduced is new cars and tracks, and not until a very long time, free roaming.


frenchy
How exactly do you simulate a bike Cockpit, without buying old ManxTT Arcade cabs?
Another one And he's added boats to the list - that's a new one

Bottom line: bikes & boats are something that I don't think will ever happen in LFS.

The "easy" thing about producing a car sim is that you sit down to drive, just as you sit down at a desk. All you need then is good physics and a wheel and you can transfer your RL driving skills easily. There's no quantum leap of faith needed to fool your brain that you're driving. You don't have g-forces to work on but your brain adjusts quickly, relying on your vision, hearing and force feedback if you have a FF wheel.
edit: djgizmo - I love those Manx TT arcade machines :up:

Bikes require you not to just to sit on the seat and operate the controls. The rider is an essential part of the machine, using his weight & changing position on the bike to change direction and keep it upright. There's a reason Logitech hasn't produced a set of handlebars for home use: they're only 25% of the bike experience.

Boats don't need much argument against them. Boats don't enjoy anything like the popularity of cars (or bikes) - not because people don't like boats, but because everyone (well, practically everyone) lives on land and travels across it every day. Even people who don't drive are able to play car games relatively easily. Boat racing in all its forms is great stuff but I really don't think the need or interest can jusitfy the time & effort it would take the 3-man developer team to simulate boats & water properly. The focus in LFS has always been cars and I hope it stays that way - I'm not even keen on seeing trucks! Apart from the question of popularity, compared to accurately simulating the physics of water - a constantly moving body of particles which constantly influence & interact with each other and whatever's floating on them - simulating a solid surface like tarmac is a breeze.

I don't hold much hope for most of what you listed, but I would definitely welcome rally stages :up: We just need a good rally car...
Imagine How much it would cost to have a full Force Feedback Bike cab.... you would need to cover the surrounding space in foam!
Sick
Imagine if your FF bike-thing could simulate a high-side and just flick you over the top of your monitor Mrs Hank would never let me play anything ever again!
he forget planes :P
ROFL, rock crawling isnt really speed...
The devs have stated in the past that LFS could simulate any that is on wheels, or more specifically is commonly raced on wheels. So boats would be out, trucks and bikes could be included in later releases.

Also Scawen has mentioned that S3 might not actually happened as planned, due to the time it's taken to get from S1 to S2, the time period to S3 is likely to be much longer still so he may adopt another method for releasing the games content. Although that's as much as he said, I would guess more, smaller updates for content, possibly paid for individually (although that would complicate matters further). For example the rally pack, although it's unclear whether that's still to be included as part of S2 or not.
Quote from Hankstar :<snip>
Bikes require you not to just to sit on the seat and operate the controls. The rider is an essential part of the machine, using his weight & changing position on the bike to change direction and keep it upright. There's a reason Logitech hasn't produced a set of handlebars for home use: they're only 25% of the bike experience.
<snip>

While it's true that body position can affect the center of gravity and therefore the grip level and the ease with which the bike wheelies/stoppies, it's the handlebars that get the bike leaned over in the first place.

It's a common misconception that bikes are steered with the body, and that's just simply not the case.
Having ridden bikes before I was driving I probably should've thought about that and clarified my point - perhaps by saying "...using his weight and changing his position to help change direction/move through corners faster" or something similar (although I didn't say moving the rider's weight was the only thing that changed direction). If you just sit up perfectly straight all the time you're either going to go really slow or just fall over

But I did point out that merely having a set of bars on your desk is only representing a fraction of how you control a bike, which illustrates that I do know what they're for
Why is it so hard not to flame? Anyway, this is not about one persons personal likes or dislikes. I don't really watch power boat racing, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't have something like the realism in LFS. Just like I personally find Drifting the lamest form of "racing" there is in the world. There are people that enjoy doing it, and I welcome that because it brings other aspects in to the fold. Do I like it personally? No not at all, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be there.

I was going to mention planes, as a person that has hosted several air races with another sim. In all honesty I felt even saying boats would be to far out of the box for people here to understand, but that it was worth a shot for discussion purposes. Boat racing wouldn't be much different then autocross now. You'd have a flat area of water, with markers laying the track. The tire smoke effect would be changed slightly for a spray effect, the surface of the water wouldn't have 3D waves. The surface could be set as a really bumpy road as in LFS.

I'd like to see two wheeled action before I ever saw boats, it would be fun having a bike team to race for. Would like to have it as real as possible like cars in LFS. I also understand though the control system. For me, I physically can't use a steering wheel for LSF so I have to use a game control. So with a bike I'd still be using a game controler.

I see more types of racers a better thing. You will get cross over racers to try other things. Heck I might try Drifting (Seriosuly doubt it lol)
Quote from neglouseight :In all honesty I felt even saying boats would be to far out of the box for people here to understand, but that it was worth a shot for discussion purposes. Boat racing wouldn't be much different then autocross now. You'd have a flat area of water, with markers laying the track. The tire smoke effect would be changed slightly for a spray effect, the surface of the water wouldn't have 3D waves. The surface could be set as a really bumpy road as in LFS.

But that misses the whole point of lfs, IF scavier had the desire to make boat racing, im sure they would try to do it properly, and all the physics effects would take ages to do. From what you said, it would just be like driving on a wet road, but in a boat model :/.
Could say the same for the cars, there is no track temps, no air temps, no air morsture or any kind of weather. No slick spots on track, no dirt or gravel tossed on the track after someone has a off. No oil on the track after a crash. But thats not the point.

The post isn't about soley boat racing. It's about all types of racing. Bringing as many types of racing in to one online community with one software front end client.
Quote from neglouseight :Could say the same for the cars, there is no track temps, no air temps, no air morsture or any kind of weather. No slick spots on track, no dirt or gravel tossed on the track after someone has a off. No oil on the track after a crash. But thats not the point.

The post isn't about soley boat racing. It's about all types of racing. Bringing as many types of racing in to one online community with one software front end client.

Responding to your first paragraph, LFS is still in progress so it's highly probable that some of those things will be included in the future. They've all been discussed at length and I'm positive the team has a long list of stuff they want to include in LFS.

As for your second point, you should keep in mind that just one developer, Scawen, does all the physics and he currently has his hands full with improving how the cars handle on dry tarmac & dirt (and lots of other stuff I & most others haven't even thought of, no doubt). Until he's satisifed with the cars I don't see much hope for boats, Red Bull air races or hovercrafts. That's how it's worked so far (and it works quite well) and that seems to be how it'll stay for the moment (so please don't respond with "hire more coders" or any other business advice because the devs, and everyone here, have heard it all many times over). At this point I think it's extremely unrealistic to expect anything with less than four wheels, let alone anything without any wheels at all. That's not flaming, it's merely how I see the situation

There really aren't many simulators that include every single machine that can possibly be raced - in fact, I can't think of one! There are many games that include aircraft, bikes, cars and boats but most of them begin with "Grand Theft Auto"... LFS is focused on cars and I think (and hope) that's how it will stay. All the decent sims I know concentrate on one form of vehicle and I think that's how sim-fans like it.
#20 - wark
Do one thing and do it well. Make it the best.

Why doesn't IN-N-OUT make anything other than burgers? Same answer.
Dammit wark, you said it - in seven words! God I wish I could do that Bloody caffeine
You misunderstand, I had never said I wanted this now. No, I was bringing up a discussion about future, not S3. Don't undermind me by thinking I would ever say hire more Developers. I've been on countless beta teams where the core programer/developer was one person. I know how long things take how you want to get it right before the public sees it.

This was a discussion on being multiple elements together over time. Being the world of racing together as one online community under the banner of Life for Speed.

Seems people here have a fear if you add something you lose something. My whole point is in the future once the car element is what the developer wanted, why not add other types of things. I never said drop everything and start making bikes and boats.

I'm a firm believer for the past 15 years when it comes to sims make the physics and the world modeling correct, and all other elements fall in to place.

I've said it before I love LFS (Even being a Mac user) want it to be the best racing sim it can possibly be.

I've from the East we don't have In-and-Out haven't been to one in years. I would find it making more sense if LFS was Live for Cars. But it's just Live for Speed and speed can mean anything. Only users seem to limit it to 4 wheels.
#23 - JJ72
I am not really sure if the devs are interested in boat racing or snowmobile racing etc etc etc...and what you are proposing, is a project that would span decades. because it's just too vast and too much details has to be done right.


hydrodynamics and aerodynamics are a headache, and now we still only have very primitive aerodynamics after 4 years of development.

I think in every project you must have a realistic framework on what you are trying to achieve, cause if you don't do that you will loose focus and couldn't progress. and in LFS, small has always been beautiful.

*and car guys, boat guys, bike guys never really come together do they?
I agree, you need to make the tools for realism top thing to do. Then added other elements will be less of a headache later.

I dunno everyone I know that builds choppers also does cars,
hell most of them live on lakes. lol.
God I hate forums sometimes...*sigh*

Heres my better late then never reply.

Quote from Hankstar :All the decent sims I know concentrate on one form of vehicle and I think that's how sim-fans like it.

No its not, thats just the way it went for the longest time.

Gran Tourismo and Tourist Trophy. Both for Playstation and two of best console sims ever made. Gran Tourismo set the stage for racing sims, and what did they do, took it that much further with a bike sim.

EA Sports with EA Superbike 2000/2001 and EA's Sports Car GT for PC. SCGT was one of the first games for PC that had a cult following of mods, cars and leagues. I ran a touring car league with SCGT 5 years ago and it was awesome. What killed it was only being able to race 4 cars online at a time. EA Superbike 2001 is better then Playstations TT as far as physics go. Graphics arent as nice, but the ride was alot more true to real racing then any other bike sim made. EA Superbike 2001 like its SCGT cousin, lacked in the online play.

Bikes are harder to ride in sims then cars are naturaly...the same in real life. 90% of motorcycle fans are enthusiasts, meaning they also ride. There are wack loads more of armchair racers out there for cars then motorcycles.

Racing bikes isnt for everyone. If you havent ridden a real bike, or raced a bike sim, you have no right to say that you hope LFS stays with 4 wheels. If you have ridden or raced a bike sim and dont think bikes for LFS is a good idea, its because its to hard for you and you cant do it. Cars are 80% car, 20% driver...bikes are 20% bike, 80% rider.

As far as a suitable control for bikes, to date Ive found a Dualshock PS2 controller the best bet so far. I have a set of Yamaha handle bars, but the response in the bars isnt as good and you dont get a good enough feel (the bars fault, not the games). You dont need to simulate the leaning angles of the rider, the game does it already. And body transfer has nothing to do with being that much later on the brakes, or that much earlier on the gas then the other guy.

On a final note, forget boats, snow mobiles and planes. The next logical step for LFS away from cars would be bikes, naturaly.
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Live for All Speed.
(43 posts, started )
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