...that would be dangerous. Crashing an animated car is not even remotely dangerous.
Public servers should be public: money down, let's go racing, learn (or not) along the way.
The licensing system creates an alternative ladder, and organised leagues provide for a 'filtered' quality of racing (or should do...)
There's just no reason to make the lessons obligatory (the fact that seasoned LFS drivers have no racecraft is just wrong, but no tutorial is going to make them learn if they can't even be bothered to interpret the few rules and guidelines that exist anyway)
Instead of trying to keep the new players off the servers perhaps we could try and help them get better. We'll build a much better community working together than trying to create some sort of tiered elitist structure.
Basically there are two types of people online: 1) The sorts who want to "play nice"; and 2) Those who only want to win/drive fast and don't care about whose race they wreck.
By helping out the first type of racer we can build a better community. Nothing that has been said in this thread will stop the second type of racer from being offensive, that is just how they are. Furthermore, they will surely be able to pass the licensing system (or lessons, or whatever) and will just continue to act in the same way.
Basically there are two types of people online: 1) The sorts who want to "play nice"; and 2) Those who only want to win/drive fast and don't care about whose race they wreck.
By helping out the first type of racer we can build a better community. Nothing that has been said in this thread will stop the second type of racer from being offensive, that is just how they are. Furthermore, they will surely be able to pass the licensing system (or lessons, or whatever) and will just continue to act in the same way.
Not always the case N2003s system worked very well, creating full servers full of people running at similar speeds with a lot less wrecks in the higher servers because the rank system was heavily based on accidents as well as performance and infact many servers could specify to only discriminate on the accidents ratio.
If we get the much wanted hardcore mode then you should be required to complete the lessons to join a hardcore server and not for a normal server.
Just an extra thing to keep the noobs away from people that want a serious race
The lessons are SIMPLE and quick to complete. If the pass marks are stored online I can't see a problem with making them a requirement.
The other solution is to allow server admins to decide if they want tests as a requirement or not
Just an extra thing to keep the noobs away from people that want a serious race
The lessons are SIMPLE and quick to complete. If the pass marks are stored online I can't see a problem with making them a requirement.
The other solution is to allow server admins to decide if they want tests as a requirement or not
I'm strongly against the driving tests to become mandatory, they're dull and don't keep wreckers or reckless drivers away, imho. Personally I have taken a few tests when they were first introduced and soon stopped because I got so bored. If the devs however should really implement that sort of thing in the future, I guess we'll have to live with it and can only hope that they find a sensible solution. As it is now, I'm perfectly content with what we have, namely a whole bunch of freely accessible public servers and some STCC-servers. And I hope Becky's is right, when she expects more tiered servers in the future (are there any news, btw, or was that just a wild guess, Becky?).
I still fail to see how a "skills test" will stop someone from acting offensively online. You're not going to stop offensive behaviour with a test. The idea is such a knee-jerk reaction with no basis in reality.
I would say that pretty much everyone knows that they shouldn't crash into other racers, some just don't care.
I would say that pretty much everyone knows that they shouldn't crash into other racers, some just don't care.
I also wouldn't want to be required to take mandatory driver training just to play the game. Even though many people think it wouldn't be much of a hassle, I still wouldn't be for the idea. A lot of the problems discussed here can be dealt with through education and a better standard of what's acceptable and what isn't.
I think a better solution might be replays or videos that cover the rules of racing. Videos are obviously more customizable but replays are much smaller in size and could be included in the LFS download. There could be multiple different demonstrations that cover each of the common problem areas such as passing, blue flag, yellow flag, black flag, pit speed limit, cold tire issues, etc.
I know that quite a bit can be done with replays using InSim, such as changing camera position, changing target car, etc. Perhaps something like this could be done with a few replay files and a number of scripts. I think that if something like this is done it really needs to be included with the game. There are far too many racers who try the game but never visit the forums or who won't have the patience or bandwidth to download 50MB videos just to learn the rules of racing.
I think a better solution might be replays or videos that cover the rules of racing. Videos are obviously more customizable but replays are much smaller in size and could be included in the LFS download. There could be multiple different demonstrations that cover each of the common problem areas such as passing, blue flag, yellow flag, black flag, pit speed limit, cold tire issues, etc.
I know that quite a bit can be done with replays using InSim, such as changing camera position, changing target car, etc. Perhaps something like this could be done with a few replay files and a number of scripts. I think that if something like this is done it really needs to be included with the game. There are far too many racers who try the game but never visit the forums or who won't have the patience or bandwidth to download 50MB videos just to learn the rules of racing.
I think that lack of driving ability is a very small issue. Lack of racecraft is a very big issue. Teaching people how to slalom through cones won't help them understand overtaking or flag rules nor race etiquette.
Education is what is needed most, not training. I think that the lessons can provide a bit of both of these things but mandatory driving tests have no value for me at all. Besides, you'll have to drag me physically kicking and screaming to get me to drive a shopping trolley or FWD car. :weeping:
Education is what is needed most, not training. I think that the lessons can provide a bit of both of these things but mandatory driving tests have no value for me at all. Besides, you'll have to drag me physically kicking and screaming to get me to drive a shopping trolley or FWD car. :weeping:
Quite interesting topic.
Why not combine the two points of view?
On the one hand, with a greatly reworked driving school (á la Richard Burns Rallye for example, with a demo run and a text and/or voice-over and a lot less repetitive lessons and most importantly, an evaluation afterwards), you could hand out licenses which are stored on LFS-World. To make things more interesting, there could even be different qualities of licenses, so there would be D, C, B and A licenses with "bronze", "silver" and "gold" status.
Server admins could freely adminster the license needed to join their server, so it could be C "gold" and B "silver + gold" and the whole of A. To think this a little further, there could even be car restrictions per server per license, so multiclassed racing with additional results per class would be possible.
On the other hand, as not to alienate the "we hate mandatory driving tests"-faction, the server admins could chose to not restrict the server access to certain licenses. Thus, anybody could join out of the box. Additionally, you could also acquire the licenses on these servers via a similar system to the STCC with the most obvious difference that this license wouldn't affect the choice of the car (which is only dependant on the server settings), but only the choice of the server.
Another thing where such a license system might come in handy: Sometimes when I race, there are hardly any races going on on public servers, the STCC is full and I don't know the passwords of private ones. So, server admins could additionally try to level out the skills on their server by allowing some licenses to join automatically and others,w ho don't obtain these licenses would need to enter a password to join.
But rereading it makes me think that it would be quite a lot of work to realise it...
BTW; IIRC there was a credit based unlock system in S1, wasn't it? I darkly remember trying out the demo and having to race in the XFR in order to optain the XRG and then the XRT...
Why not combine the two points of view?
On the one hand, with a greatly reworked driving school (á la Richard Burns Rallye for example, with a demo run and a text and/or voice-over and a lot less repetitive lessons and most importantly, an evaluation afterwards), you could hand out licenses which are stored on LFS-World. To make things more interesting, there could even be different qualities of licenses, so there would be D, C, B and A licenses with "bronze", "silver" and "gold" status.
Server admins could freely adminster the license needed to join their server, so it could be C "gold" and B "silver + gold" and the whole of A. To think this a little further, there could even be car restrictions per server per license, so multiclassed racing with additional results per class would be possible.
On the other hand, as not to alienate the "we hate mandatory driving tests"-faction, the server admins could chose to not restrict the server access to certain licenses. Thus, anybody could join out of the box. Additionally, you could also acquire the licenses on these servers via a similar system to the STCC with the most obvious difference that this license wouldn't affect the choice of the car (which is only dependant on the server settings), but only the choice of the server.
Another thing where such a license system might come in handy: Sometimes when I race, there are hardly any races going on on public servers, the STCC is full and I don't know the passwords of private ones. So, server admins could additionally try to level out the skills on their server by allowing some licenses to join automatically and others,w ho don't obtain these licenses would need to enter a password to join.
But rereading it makes me think that it would be quite a lot of work to realise it...
BTW; IIRC there was a credit based unlock system in S1, wasn't it? I darkly remember trying out the demo and having to race in the XFR in order to optain the XRG and then the XRT...
i just thought i would throw this idea in the pile, i havent read the whole of this topic so i appologise if its been mentioned.
it was regarding the idea of having the training passed before you can join a multiplayer game. well..
how about making it so when you create a server, public or private there is an option to tick 'Training' (or something along those lines) once this has been ticked the server only lets ppl join who have completed the training missions.
this would reduce the number of 'noobs' on them servers.
it was regarding the idea of having the training passed before you can join a multiplayer game. well..
how about making it so when you create a server, public or private there is an option to tick 'Training' (or something along those lines) once this has been ticked the server only lets ppl join who have completed the training missions.
this would reduce the number of 'noobs' on them servers.
Yes, if we have any form of mandatory tests all current licenced drivers should be grandfathered in having all cars available. And anyone with over 2000km should automatically get all cars available.
Even better, remove the tests with no replacement or have tests more pertaining to online play I.E. something like the avoidance in tourist trophy (3 sets of tyres, depending on a light go left or right, random each time) and a pit stop in each car.
I don't like the idea of that at all. The reason the points system was useless in 0.3 days was that you could unlock any car by just driving the GTi. I don't like the idea of unlocking cars in single player, but for multiplayer I think it would be beneficial if you have to prove you can at least get the car around the track.
OK then, make the tests needed for each car.
- Let a faster driver (20% more power due to the silly AI) through within 2 or 3 corners
- Complete a lap of a reasonable length for that car (FOX - AS National, GTR - AS North, MRT - SO Sprint 1) without leaving the track
- Make a legal pit stop, obeying blend lines
How about requiring a racing license that costs 1500 euros, like a real driver's license. On top of that only allow 720 degree force feedback wheels with three pedals and proper shifters. That would keep the wreckers off the track and leave the hardcore simmers in peaceful racing heaven.
Is this a f*cking joke or did you forget the smileys?
Sorry, but LOL.
Its obvious that he is dead serious, isnt it?
Just as serious, as I am now.
Interesting thread.
My take on it is that if the lessons are mandatory, people will either a) slog through them, be bored, and not go online due to fatigue due to LFS or b) bypass them, and go online.
In my view, the issue is not so much of racecraft and 'keeping noobs (How I hate that term) off servers', for that fragments the community, but of education. I have a solution. If we TEACH LFS drivers what the rules mean, on specially designated servers, (Sort of like an online LFS racing school), maybe tie it in with some sort of license system (possibly STCC), so that passing a test gets a mark, failing it gets a demerit, for instance, and if you have a certain number of demerits, say, 10, you are offered extra tuition to help with the weak areas and 10 merits means you are allowed on some servers. Also, there could be a centralised system for reports and complaints, with merits and de-merits done on a race-by-race basis. 'Ah' I hear you cry, 'What about the people who complete the tests then clear off?' My answer would be simple, Refresher courses and Rookie programs, again, on specially chosen servers, at random intervals.
Just my 0.02 Euro
Have a good day
DK
My take on it is that if the lessons are mandatory, people will either a) slog through them, be bored, and not go online due to fatigue due to LFS or b) bypass them, and go online.
In my view, the issue is not so much of racecraft and 'keeping noobs (How I hate that term) off servers', for that fragments the community, but of education. I have a solution. If we TEACH LFS drivers what the rules mean, on specially designated servers, (Sort of like an online LFS racing school), maybe tie it in with some sort of license system (possibly STCC), so that passing a test gets a mark, failing it gets a demerit, for instance, and if you have a certain number of demerits, say, 10, you are offered extra tuition to help with the weak areas and 10 merits means you are allowed on some servers. Also, there could be a centralised system for reports and complaints, with merits and de-merits done on a race-by-race basis. 'Ah' I hear you cry, 'What about the people who complete the tests then clear off?' My answer would be simple, Refresher courses and Rookie programs, again, on specially chosen servers, at random intervals.
Just my 0.02 Euro
Have a good day
DK
+1
How about a multiple choice exam. 35 questions, 30 correct to pass then view some clips to test your hazard perception... oh wait..no, never mind.
Joking aside, I'm strongly against any sort of unlocking system. It's merely an annoyance, like others have said, I'll just wait for a 100% unlocked savegame or something.
Although, I do support allowing restriction of servers by PB times solely because I've seen it work so well in leagues.
Joking aside, I'm strongly against any sort of unlocking system. It's merely an annoyance, like others have said, I'll just wait for a 100% unlocked savegame or something.
Although, I do support allowing restriction of servers by PB times solely because I've seen it work so well in leagues.
I can assure you, it definately wouldn't work, it would just limit the access to the servers, like "complete all trainings to go online" (which you're against, hello double moral)... I've raced a few leagues, with different systems and believe me, leagues are completely different to public racing... In leagues, everybody has a common goal (finishing as far in front as possible), and everyone respects the other and is cautious not to crash, as it would result in penaltys (up to being banned from the league) and fewer points... Public racing doesn't have that...
Some form of theory test (like on one forum you have to do a small test to be able to post) would work actually.
It's not a 'double moral'. You'd still have unrestricted servers for any Tom, Dick or Harry to join. Only I'll be looking for servers operating an Intermediate restriction for close racing, while trying to improve enough to take on the WR contenders on Professional servers.
In any race everyone 'should' have a common goal (finishing as far in front as possible), and everyone 'should' respect each other and 'should' be cautious not to crash, as it would result in penalties (up to being banned from the server)...
Public races may not have this at the moment, but they should.
Most servers are enforcing rules more actively nowadays, they're trying to bring league racing standards to the masses. Surely this is the way forward?
But you won't solve anything with restricting access through PB's... I've seen slower people behaving much much better than some "fast" guys who couldn't stand driving around you, only to get a .001 sec faster PB... In addition: Have you done every combo? No? Maybe you are satisfied with the combos you did until now, I personally like to try out new things...
Reading some of the replies above I think I must be some kind of exception, I downloaded the demo and the first thing I did was go through the lessons. As soon as I'd finished them I bought the S2 licence and went through the remaining lessons, this was all in one day by the way.
LFS Lessons and early braking.
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