Now I've heard people say that you can do ceertain things a in the setup which benefit LFS but are totally wrong in the real world. Something like using a locked diff or having a stiffer front ARB than rear on the FWD actually brings the car around instead of understeering.

I really don't get it and how people find them, it amazes me but what other exploits are there?

There are not many others from what you mentioned. They aren't so much exploits, but just physics issues. The stiff FWD f-arb issue is known, and the locked diff stuff still needs some working out. Those are the real only two "big" ones. Nothing else really

(Oh and hybrid rally tires are used on the rears of most FWD cars and the UF1 for more grip and faster heating for hotlapping. It IS a race tire, so the fact that it produces more grip is 'normal' according to Scawen... yet I don't know why we can't just have it equal the amount of grip of the Supers)

IRL its the teams that have the most dollars and therefore get the most testing time that end up being the fastest on a regular basis In LFS it's not much different, except it's the ones that have the most time and paitence to do an extrodenary amount of testing that find these things out, one other significant difference is that in LFS new findings tend to be shared fairly quickly so everyone ends up running similar settings anyway

I don't see things as exploits personally, it's just people finding and getting the most out of what they have got available to them which is no different to RL thats very much apart of racing

Quote from Glenn67 :

IRL its the teams that have the most dollars and therefore get the most testing time that end up being the fastest on a regular basis

Except the Toyota F1 team

Quote from Gentlefoot :

Except the Toyota F1 team

Yes doesn't mean teams with less funds can't pull it off, just that it is harder for them It's not money that creates success, but all to often money can buy it I gotta stop being so sinical!

high pressure tyres, particularly on the less important side.

Well then anyone care to share, or doesn everyone keep them hidden in team sets?

I'm finding it difficult to make my own sets as everytime I try a WR set it just feels so much better that my own and I noticed that the settings don't follow normal setup guides so I'm stumped.

I spend A LOT of time making sets, if I make them for a league and my team mates then I tend to keep them under wraps untill after the event, but generally I'll hand them out willy-nilly.

WR sets are ok for hotlapping, but pretty useless when it comes to races of any decent distance.

Unless you know how a car reacts to a given circumstance, and how to cure problems then you are fighting a losing battle making setups.

My advice is use the RACE_S set as a base, run a hotlap as best you can, output a RAF file, and output a RAF file for the current WR, check your lines a braking points, use LFS Analyzer, once you are happy with your lines and braking points, use F1Prefview to show where you can make tweaks to the setup, but unless you have at least some understanding of how a car works it can be very tough.

Remember, that whatever you do to a setup will make something better, but also it will change something else you didnt want it to, its always a balancing act, also when tyre wear becomes an issue, like this weeks UXRL race where setup is going to make or break IMO, making setups becomes much more involved, it has taken me the best part of a week to create a decent setup for Westhill in the XFR, that is both fast, and can last 12 laps, its no mean feat I can tell you.

The only thing that IMO comes close to an exploit is the locked diff, but its not really an exploit because most/all people use it anyway

Dan,

Quote from danowat :

I spend A LOT of time making sets, if I make them for a league and my team mates then I tend to keep them under wraps untill after the event, but generally I'll hand them out willy-nilly.

WR sets are ok for hotlapping, but pretty useless when it comes to races of any decent distance.

Unless you know how a car reacts to a given circumstance, and how to cure problems then you are fighting a losing battle making setups.

My advice is use the RACE_S set as a base, run a hotlap as best you can, output a RAF file, and output a RAF file for the current WR, check your lines a braking points, use LFS Analyzer, once you are happy with your lines and braking points, use F1Prefview to show where you can make tweaks to the setup, but unless you have at least some understanding of how a car works it can be very tough.

Remember, that whatever you do to a setup will make something better, but also it will change something else you didnt want it to, its always a balancing act, also when tyre wear becomes an issue, like this weeks UXRL race where setup is going to make or break IMO, making setups becomes much more involved, it has taken me the best part of a week to create a decent setup for Westhill in the XFR, that is both fast, and can last 12 laps, its no mean feat I can tell you.

The only thing that IMO comes close to an exploit is the locked diff, but its not really an exploit because most/all people use it anyway

Dan,

Great info Dan. One rule I always stick to is to change one thing at a time (OK you may need to make associated adjustments) and only change it by a small amount - 1 or 2 clicks. If you can't feel a significant difference with one or two clicks then that setting is either miles off where it needs to be or another setting needs adjusting first.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=15252

Don't know if you have seen this setup guide or not, I think it's of interest because it describes moby's method of making a setup.

The common theme here is that to make a very good setup, requires a good understanding of all setup perameters and a lot of hard work testing. No short cuts! I'm just glad people share settings so readily which gives you a good starting point... we don't have to reinvent the wheel

I don't have the best understanding of the settings, but I do have a basic understanding of a lot of the settings do not uber nerdy stuff so maybe that's my problem, but it doesn't interest me enough to have to read a whole book on springs and shocks to be able to make a setup. If that's what it takes I guess I'll just leave it because it's not for me.

But then there's the dilemma of wanting to join a league and racing more than 5 laps and I'm screwed ecause my WR set that I've learnt on doesn't last. You're abolsutely right that for the races you need setups and that's why I'm here.

Dan can u go through roughly the steps you take when making a setup? From using the race_s set to learning the track and being consistant to then changing settings etc, that sorta thing. I've been using the N2k3 approach but sing the default hard track sets.

Thanks for the guide, I'll take a look at it hopefully it's not too complicated for me to understand frequencies etc.

There are some quite difficult fundimentals within setting a car up, that can be quite hard to discovery, basically because we don't have enough information about the cars themselves, spring frequency is one of them, there are ways and means, but it is pretty long winded, if Bob / Colcob (can't remember who did it) re-wrote there settings sheets for the cars then it would be easier, that said, those setup sheets are unvaluable IMO to discovering what does what, a great rescource, that and Bobs setup guide.

We do have a lot of resources to help out, but it doesnt make the process any quicker really, start with simple stuff, camber, tyre pressures, anti-roll bars, see how they chance the balance of the car in different transitions, it is VERY time consuming because you are to run test laps after EVERY change, TBH, its a bit anal really, but I quite enjoy it, when I have the time that is.

Try it yourself, chance a bit, drive, chance a bit more, drive, do it with a car you are familiar with and a track you are familar with too, if you get horribly stuck give me a shout and I wil try and give you some pointers.

I am not the best at making sets, there are many others who can make way better sets than I can, but I know a little about what does what, and how to cure problems.

I have had a look at Moby's guide, its nice, but I am not convinced its that good a resource, IMO it asks more questions than it answers and is way too brief.

Thats not to say it wont help people, it will

And you think setting cars up is hard, you wanna try setting a bike up, that really is a black art

Dan,

Quote from Davo :

But then there's the dilemma of wanting to join a league and racing more than 5 laps and I'm screwed ecause my WR set that I've learnt on doesn't last. You're abolsutely right that for the races you need setups and that's why I'm here.

I maybe totally wrong but I think starting out with a WR set and then making some small adjustments to improve tyre longevity would do most people. Mostly tyre longevity comes down to driving technique imo.

So if you grab a WR set and find tyres aren't lasting long, first investigate if you drive the set different to the WR holder. I've seen on a number of occasions were a set someone complains about burning tyres, is used by someone who can get very close to WR times, is fine for 20-30 laps in their hands

If you grab a WR set and feel comfortable with its handling then you may only need to adjust camber and tyre pressures a few notches to get a good set for longer races.

Yeah, if I'm tweaking a WR set for a longer race I'll tend to look at cambers and tyre pressures (to get the temps sensible after a longish stint, without sacrificing too much in lap time), then I'll tend to look at ARB's and brake balance for personalised handling/braking tastes (and you don't want as much rearward brake balance in a long race, because one day it'll catch you out). I might tweak parallel steering (I've found <50% to be much better).

That's about it really. Get the tyres right, fine-tune the handling with bars, and away you go (for me).

Yeah, thats normally enough for people as gifted behind the wheel as you Tristan , us "normos" require a little more help hehehehe

Dan,

Thanks, but I'd put myself firmly in the 'normos' bracket. So budge up and make some more room!

I usually test my setups in multiplayer so I can adjust on the fly and pit for the changes to take effect without grabbing new tyres or being weighed down with a full tank and I've noticed a difference from the settings I've made, I've also tried to keep it one setting at a time but find myself adjusting pressures and camber at the same time and sometimes even ARBs as well as those.

I've driven the car til the tyres started losing temp, something which I never knew happened but I'm not sure how hot they should stay. Should they be in the orange to drop down green again, or should they stay in the green for the whole race or does it depend on the length of the race. I don't know where to begin.

I've tried adjusting WR sets just tyres and I upped the pressures and lowered camber and found the set reacted quite differently and even then temps were too high most likely from my driving style because I pushed too hard and the changes I made affected other things which I didn't want to change so the set became totally wrong.

I've used the setup spreadsheet, is that out of date now in S2 patch U? I've used it to work out the optimum damping setting for the springs I've selected, but what confused me is seeing WR sets that use much more bump than rebound damping, when it should be the other way around according to the guide. This and the ARB/diff thing got me asking the original question int he first place.

What I'll do is concentrate on trying to make a set and when I get stuck I'll post in this thread or make a new one or search for my problem first. I think once I make that first set that feels good to me or better than a WR set and also gets me good times, I'll be able to say I know what I'm doing and other sets will just be made much easier. Is the first set the hardest to make? Please say yes lol

Quote from Davo :

I've driven the car til the tyres started losing temp, something which I never knew happened but I'm not sure how hot they should stay. Should they be in the orange to drop down green again, or should they stay in the green for the whole race or does it depend on the length of the race. I don't know where to begin.

That is hard. Is it worth having tyre temps a bit too hot, but maybe being closer to optimum for longer, than to have perfect tyre temps (and hence ultimately better pace theoretically) but have them lose speed as soon as temps start to drop (either from wear, or if you get stuck in traffic).

I personally am happy for tyres to do what they like as long as I keep the pace going. In practice I'll usually find what temperatures start to slow me down, and adjust the setup to only avoid those extremes. If my 80° optimum tyres are at 95°, but I'm just as quick, then I'll leave it.

Pressure has a BIG effect on tyre temp, if it's too high you will never get enough heat into the tyre, if its too low you'll overheat the tyres, on the flip side of this, low pressure gives more grip than high pressure, but more rolling resistance, so again, its swings and roundabouts, a big balancing act, ying and yang etc etc.

I try to have my tyres on the hot side of their optimum temp range, but not so hot that they are melting.

If you are seeing different suspension settings on WR sets than yours, ignore it, theres nothing to say that what they have done is right, and infact yours might be the better setup.

What it boils down to in the end is, does it drive well for YOU, and do you get good tyre life and good laptimes, that is ultimatly all the matters.

IMO, Camber, tyre pressures and ride height are the 3 most importand things that need changing in WR setups, its amazing how many of them bottom out.

Dan,

WR sets are often tuned for ultimate speed at the sacrifice of handling, which is (nearly) the opposite to how I work. They've only got to complete one lap with f***ing up anyway. I think getting a car to handle nice and balanced should come first (for general racing), then start tweaking things for more speed while staying within your own control limits.

There are updated versions of Colcob's setup analyser about, albeit with reduced functionality. I'm not willing to post them publically since they're not my work but if you PM me an email address I'll send you an email with links and instructions. Until I can offer my replacement package (early next year) it's the best thing available - I never suspension without it.

How many laps race are we talking before we move onto r3s? Or are r3s the regular tyres for racing and r2s only for WRs and qualifying? Don't tell me, it also depends on the track right? Damn this setup business is realy starting to do my head in!

Bob I'll definately take up your offer on that, pm heading your way.

Depends on the track LOL, I would only really use R2's on shorter tracks in shorter races, but it would really depend on the car and track I was using.

I am currently driving the XFR alot, due to the league I am racing in, and I generally use R3's in the race, and R2's in qualifying, but with Westhill R2's last one lap if you are lucky.

@Bob If you didn't recieve my mail, link you sent gives a page not found error .

Quote from Davo :

How many laps race are we talking before we move onto r3s? Or are r3s the regular tyres for racing and r2s only for WRs and qualifying? Don't tell me, it also depends on the track right? Damn this setup business is realy starting to do my head in!

Personal preferance here, but I have a lot of trouble with R3's. They heat up for a couple of laps then cool down and show blue for the entire run. I have always used R2's. Usually, you have to pit sometime anyways (Long/League races) and R2's last plenty long for me. I don't believe I drive a particularly loose setup, so they don't heat up during long stints for me. I don't use a complete locking diff and only have just a little bit of throttle rotation in the corners, so R2's generally stay at a nice temp for me. 20-25 laps to pitstop on R2's? Plenty good for me!

As far as my experience goes, once you get up to a decent WR-near speed (read: your driving is smooth), R2 tyres, or R1 for that matter, last much longer than the typical public race. Currently R3 tyres are only needed for relatively long races > ~25-30 laps, and R4 aren't needed at all.
People always try to fiddle with the setup to make the tyres last longer, while the main influence is usually the driver himself.

Quote from danowat :

We do have a lot of resources to help out, but it doesnt make the process any quicker really, start with simple stuff, camber, tyre pressures, anti-roll bars, see how they chance the balance of the car in different transitions, it is VERY time consuming because you are to run test laps after EVERY change, TBH, its a bit anal really, but I quite enjoy it, when I have the time that is.

I would never start with camber because as you change springs, dampers, ARBs the camber angles will change anyway. I get the balance and ride height of the car right first and then set the camber angles. That way I don't have to keep changing them.

You know I think some people think that it is possible to set a car up based on values but it really isn't. There is no subsititute for testing. And to be able to test you need to know a circuit like the back of your hand. That way you can feel the result of every tiny change.

THERE IS NO QUICK WAY TO CREATE A GOOD SETUP. YOU MUST TEST THOROUGHLY