just a little note on were the speed is measured from..

i read (yes i actually read the whole of that closed post!) that the speed was measured from the non driving wheels to produce a more accurate reading, every car i have been in has measured the speed from the driving wheels..

if for example i was to jack my car up and put them on axel stands (as dangerous as this is..) and to start my car up the speedo would measure how fast my front wheels were turning. (FWD) so atm, the way the speed is measured is correct, well at least its correct for every car i have been in.

i havent tried the patch out yet so i cant really comment on how it works, but i just thought that i would throw that bit of info at you

Chris.

Edit : I have also driven a rwd car and thats measured the same way.

Quote from R3DMAN :

just a little note on were the speed is measured from..

i read (yes i actually read the whole of that closed post!) that the speed was measured from the non driving wheels to produce a more accurate reading, every car i have been in has measured the speed from the driving wheels..

if for example i was to jack my car up and put them on axel stands (as dangerous as this is..) and to start my car up the speedo would measure how fast my front wheels were turning. (FWD) so atm, the way the speed is measured is correct, well at least its correct for every car i have been in.

i havent tried the patch out yet so i cant really comment on how it works, but i just thought that i would throw that bit of info at you

Chris.

Edit : I have also driven a rwd car and thats measured the same way.

Cars measure wheel speed at the differential.

Correction:

Some cars measure the speed at the differential, some at the gearbox, some at the driving wheels, and some from the non-driven wheels. ( Correction from below : sometimes in a combination of these to allow for detecting wheel spin, probably for traction control technology)

I have a GPS speedometer which measures the speed without being mechanically attached to the car.

Please research and reference before making generalised claims.


Additionally - if you want to win races, you have to be both smooth and fast, neither of which are attainable by consulting the Speedometer. Driving should be anticipated control, not reacted responses.

I may check my pressures, temperatures and fuel on the dash once per lap on the straight to check for mechanical symptoms of failure, but gear changing should be done by anticipation and listening to your engine.

Speed is not important, what is important is when you accelerate, when you brake (and how hard), and how you turn (while braking and accelerating), if you do all those right, you'll have the shortest lap time, regardless of what your speedometer may "tell" you, wherever it gets its information from.

Quote from z3r0c00l :

Correction:

Some cars measure the speed at the differential, some at the gearbox, some at the driving wheels, and some from the non-driven wheels.

Or at multiple places so that wheelspin and locked wheels can be detected.

Quote from z3r0c00l :

Additionally - if you want to win races, you have to be both smooth and fast, neither of which are attainable by consulting the Speedometer. Driving should be anticipated control, not reacted responses.

Depends what level of driving you are aiming to achieve. When squeezing the last bit out of the car being able to see my speed is extremely useful to me. You may be fast without doing so - I suspect there are plenty faster that do so.

I always look the speedo too, irl you have many feelings that you will never have in a computer game...so you have to compensate
but if you do not search to be really quick, it is not that important, sure.

Quote from Flotch :

I always look the speedo too, irl you have many feelings that you will never have in a computer game...so you have to compensate
but if you do not search to be really quick, it is not that important, sure.

:iagree:
I'm using digital speedo to exactly see my speed in particular turns, and using this number to compare it to WR hotlaps (by Flotch, for example ) or to my best try. It means something similiar as lap time or splits to me.

But this doesn't attenuates the justness of what Zerocool said about real cars:

Quote :

Please research and reference before making generalised claims.

Quote from z3r0c00l :

Correction:

Some cars measure the speed at the differential, some at the gearbox, some at the driving wheels, and some from the non-driven wheels.

I have a GPS speedometer which measures the speed without being mechanically attached to the car.

Please research and reference before making generalised claims.


Additionally - if you want to win races, you have to be both smooth and fast, neither of which are attainable by consulting the Speedometer. Driving should be anticipated control, not reacted responses.

I may check my pressures, temperatures and fuel on the dash once per lap on the straight to check for mechanical symptoms of failure, but gear changing should be done by anticipation and listening to your engine.

Speed is not important, what is important is when you accelerate, when you brake (and how hard), and how you turn (while braking and accelerating), if you do all those right, you'll have the shortest lap time, regardless of what your speedometer may "tell" you, wherever it gets its information from.

And what about observation of effectsand comparing to others!?

I keep the speedo set to analogue, never look at it, and I do ok.

Good points everyone, but every car has an absolutely perfect lap timer, if you want to be fast, that's what you need to be looking at, the speedo is a pitiful measure of performance compared to a lap timer.

I like looking at guages though, I like an excess of information, but I can drive just as fast without a speedometer. (IRL that is, I'm having trouble driving without any ffb, so I'm pretty slow generally, and hopeless in RWD with LFS.)

edit - Redman if you even read this: sorry to see you go from the STCC, good driving in round 1.

Quote from z3r0c00l :

Good points everyone, but every car has an absolutely perfect lap timer, if you want to be fast, that's what you need to be looking at, the speedo is a pitiful measure of performance compared to a lap timer.

lap times give you little useful information about particular corners.

If the speedo wasn't useful then neither would be analysing a pair of traces of speed vs time in a replay analyser. Whether you choose to look at your speed while you're lapping or afterwards is up to you! Personally I don't look at it much but there are one or two key corners in which I check my speed to see how I'm doing.

Knowing the excact speed in corners, or when after braking for a corner is very important for me. I use the digital speedo as a reference all the time.

" lap times give you little useful information about particular corners."

Surely if you can't drive each corner consistantly enough to know if a change in line in one corner has affected your laptime in either direction, you arn't consistant enough to be searching for 1-3mph anywhere anyway?

I use both the speedo and the splits to tell me what is happening (not soley those, I might add, but they are two tools at my disposal, so why not make full use of them).

If I carry more speed into a corner (using the speedo), but I get slower splits consistently, then I know it's a bad change (wither braking later, different line, different setup; whatever). If I'm slower in but get faster splits then I know it's good.

There is no point NOT using the speedo, or NOT using the splits, because it's information about your speed/pace. To ignore either would be at your peril. Okay, maybe not your peril, but your near mortal danger.

Quote from z3r0c00l :

Surely if you can't drive each corner consistantly enough to know if a change in line in one corner has affected your laptime in either direction, you arn't consistant enough to be searching for 1-3mph anywhere anyway?

Well, you're wrong I and others benefit from knowing the exact speed through the corner. I'm not slow, neither are the others I've seen comment on it. You may be fast and drive differently - good for you.
I'd still rather a realistic speedo instead of a 'perfect' speedo though, even if it is slightly slower / harder to learn.

Any speedo that can be implemented on a real car is realistic (providing it behaves in the same manner). You're all debating a pointless topic... as long as you know how the speed is measured, which you do. End of Story.
Yay!

There is a 'bug' though

IF you put limiter on, and you spin your wheels, your speedo tells you that you are going over 80, while your limiter limits it to do not more than 80...
so maybe in patch V you can maybe do It lik it will only go 80...

AND another bug (don't know if told already) of you are in a BF1 and you do TC off, Limiter ON, you put in in N, full throttle, into 1, still full throttle, keep it straight, and you get Drive-thru...

On corner entry, at threshold breaking you have 10% slip on all four tyres, as such the speedo will be measuring 10% slower on threshold breaking for corner entry, this varies as the track changes under the car and the weight gets thrown around and you modulate the brake effort to avoid a lock up or not losing enough speed, so you'll get a different speed for the same actualy velocity on several very similar corner entries to the same corner.... this is not consistant, consistancy comes before improvement. This is only really the case in real life though, seeing as brake pedals are travel measured rather than pressure measured, making brake modulation a nightmare to do accurately and be good at both real world, and USB wheel controller pedals levels. The same applies for exiting the corners, as long as you have more power available than you can use (always the case when maintaining the edge of the traction circle at a corner exit).

None the less, I would also like a realistic speedo, so however it is measured, as long as an implementation for it on a real world car in mass production/race converted format has one, I'm happy. The rest was simply a side note, one considerably larger than the post.

BTW: People with patch U have an advantage though...
they can see how fast they are REALLY going and can brake untill they are doing 80 at pits, while now, (when I lock my wheels) I can't see the speed and have a chance of getting DT...

(Hopefully it's the one or the other in patch V, else there will be advantages at that too...)

I'm not saying that it sucks though...

Quote from z3r0c00l :

Correction:

Some cars measure the speed at the differential, some at the gearbox, some at the driving wheels, and some from the non-driven wheels.

I have a GPS speedometer which measures the speed without being mechanically attached to the car.

Please research and reference before making generalised claims.

I'm sorry. Name any Real vehicle similar to any car in LFS that gets its speed anywhere than from the differential.

BMW? rear diff. VSS,
FWD Hondas, Mazdas, Toyotas, etc, all measured at front diff.
Porsche: Differential
etc etc etc.

It is the easiest measure of speed, avoiding wires running near axles and moving axles, and suspension parts. My dad's old 99 S320 Mercedes... rear diff VSS. His Lexus GS300 rear diff VSS. My friend's Formula, rear Diff VSS. Generalizations are made to avoid having to write out whole paragraphs like I just have, to keep people from trying to point out that there is that 1/1000 vehicle model that uses something other than the differential.illepall

A lot of cars pre 1990 are measured from the non driven wheels, there are not any wires involved, there are however cables etc. Taking it from the differential is newer technology.

Generalizations save time ONLY when talking to stupid people.

by the way, you asked me to name any real vehicle similar to any car in LFS that didn't take the speedometer off the differential (takes it from the front left wheel), well here it is:

Transmission Renault five-speed manual
Suspension front: Double wishbones with coil springs, telescopic shocks, and anti-roll bar
rear:Semi-trailing arms, coil springs, and telescopic shocks
Tires front:195/60HR14
rear:Goodyear NCT 235/60HR15
Brakes front: Discs
rear: Discs
Horsepower 145 bhp @ 5,500 rpm
Torque 162 lb ft @ 2,750 rpm





"Oh no! I'm about to plug my speedometer cable into something other than the rear diff, this needs MOAR JIGGAWATTS!!11"

Quote from BlakjeKaas :

There is a 'bug' though

IF you put limiter on, and you spin your wheels, your speedo tells you that you are going over 80, while your limiter limits it to do not more than 80...
so maybe in patch V you can maybe do It lik it will only go 80...

AND another bug (don't know if told already) of you are in a BF1 and you do TC off, Limiter ON, you put in in N, full throttle, into 1, still full throttle, keep it straight, and you get Drive-thru...

*cough*

just to bump actually, because they are 'bugs' (sort of...)

Maybe it is reading speed at the fastest spinning wheel.

WARNING! DIFFERENTIAL THEORY!

In an open differential, You have this: -|>X<|- The >< are the sun gears atached to the axles and the X are the two planet gears attached to the differential. When moving, the planet gears push on the sun gears, which turns the axles. With 100% slipping, the planet gears roll around the non slipping sun gear, and turn the slipping sun gear at twice the speed of the differential. So the slipping wheel is going twice as fast at the same RPM than it would not slipping at 100% slippage.

Now, we all race with LSDs, so 100% slippage won't happen, but the idea is there. With the speed measured at the diff, if a wheel is slipping awful fast, the speedo speed won't be very far off.

Quote from Impreza WRX :

Maybe it is reading speed at the fastest spinning wheel.

well, it must be that it won't go faster than 80..?
so why does it do more than 80? (if you believe the speedo)
I mean, it must be locked so the wheels won't turn faster than 80...

And the BF1 just get's a drive through WITH limiter on (and traction control off) so that isn't right either.