The online racing simulator
Quote from chucknorris :This would be a real nice addon. A hardware-id would be a very useful addition...

While I understand ur position as TC server admin. IP Addresses are not sufficient for reliable identity for those troublemakers, and could be a double edge sword for those legitimate average Joe users, here's why;

While is true raw IP are very useful, dynamic IPs do exist and are everywhere; Many users have dynamically assigned IPs by their internet providers which can change frequently in time, even just at a router reset. Thus, correlating identity based solely on IP is unreliable and rarely used or valuable outside enviroments of CRUISE servers (atleast from my point of view as a hoster). While IPs do change, they are still useful to geolocate a user, which could lead to problems like doxxing, profiling, tracking, etc.

Shared IPs do exist: NAT (Network Address Translation) and carrier-grade NAT can cause multiple users to appear as having the same IP, in households, cafes, universities, you name it.
while some VPNs can be detected, any dedicated enough users can and will bypass detection in servers, making it more unrealiable. plus, identifying VPN use doesn't imply malicious intent it may reflect legitimate privacy concerns that we are discussing now.

legal compliance about IPs are risky (GDPR/CCPA): IP addresses are personally identifiable information (PII). Under laws like the GDPR, collecting or storing these without explicit informed consent is illegal at least under EU standards, consent must be freely given, specific, informed, and unambiguous with valid legal basis (like preventing fraud, which unless we talk about TC Money, it isn't valid IMO). If these data is handled by random people that can either start a host or rent a host without acknowledging that the wrong use of this information can and will be punished, then this is highly flawed and unnecessary legal risk. If it could happen once, it will happen twice and it's a big mess once it does happen. Furthermore,
your totally valid, safety concerns to keep the servers a safe place is beyond that legal spectrum and are not valid at all.

Data Minimization Principle, privacy laws require that only the minimum data necessary for a function be collected. IP addresses rarely meet the standard unless there is a clear and proven threat, which is far from a needed function to just run a host if you're not the one hosting it in your own PC.
False positives could also misidentify a player due to shared IPs or reused hardware or just same internet provider frequenly changing IPs (e.g., in internet cafes or family-shared PCs) can wrongly flag innocent users. Which is of course irrelevant for non-cruise servers ofc.

Better alternative is rate limiting, behavior-based detection through more detailed history in player data, and server-side anti-cheat logic are far more effective and privacy-respecting than relying on raw IP info.
let me remind you legal consent requires that users are clearly told and fully understand what data is collected, why, how it's stored, who sees it, and for how long.

The idea of using raw IPs as central tools for moderation and user identity creates significant privacy, legal, and technical concerns, and gives too much power to admins/mods that could also have access to a host (myself I have many people allowed to my host). While it's understandable that server hosts want tools to fight abuse, this approach is: Legally risky.(especially in the EU, California, and other privacy-regulated regions), and hardly manageable.

It is technically flawed from the getgo as a defense against determined bad actors that could render it useless, and could be really harmful to normal day to day user trust, and unnecessary, since more privacy-respecting and effective methods could be developed and already exist and are being used in other games/platforms.

Just to clarify... are we valuing "TC Money" multi accounts, over actual privacy concerns? tracking? doxxing? profiling? c'mon, all done with the data LFS provides to anyone that can start a host. Just to make it clear, if it happened once, it would most likely happen twice and if nothing is done about it, it could happen in the background silently done by malicious hosters.

by the way, LFS is not just Cruise. And removing the possibility to see IPs as a hoster would mostlikely be irrelevant in most servers, where a ban its just enough 99% of the times. And keeping this would represent an important breach of privacy and security of normal users that don't use VPNs or don't have the technical knowledge to protect themselves online against any type of doxxing, cyber-attacks, etc. A determined bad user won't care about IP bans anyway.

sources described here:

https://gdpr.eu/eu-gdpr-personal-data/

https://gdpr-text.com/read/article-4/

https://oag.ca.gov/privacy/ccpa

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=1798.100.&lawCode=CIV
Quote from manolixsvouros :While I understand ur position as TC server admin. IP Addresses are not sufficient for reliable identity for those troublemakers, and could be a double edge sword for those legitimate average Joe users, here's why;...

Oh we are very well aware about the shortcoming and limitations in terms of significance of IP addresses, therefore they are not used as the "central" or only factor when making decisions. They are more like a piece of a puzzle that fills in the picture when combined with other information. Hence we don't base any automatic actions on it (with exception of a 24h ban upon detection of a country change to leave admins time to assess the situation).
Some information is very accurate and directly accessible though, like the nature of connection reverse dns/ISP/VPN/proxy/country/city, etc. But that requires access to the unfalsified ip address.

Quote from manolixsvouros :
legal compliance about IPs are risky (GDPR/CCPA): IP addresses are personally identifiable information (PII). Under laws like the GDPR, collecting or storing these without explicit informed consent is illegal at least under EU standards,

Thanks for bringing this up but TC is not a company, business or organisation, hence is why we think the GDPR doesn't affects us at all. Which, by the way, I think is the case for all people running hosts at LFS. So we can skip quickly over this topic.

But guess what, even if that was the case, if TC (or anyone else) would decide to change their legal status one day, for instance by founding a Ltd. by british law, or a "e.V" (registered society) by german law, or if someone is just a little too paranoid, it wouldn't be a problem at all. The solution I proposed would account for all of it and would cover all parties' interests, not just those of a few. And I haven't seen anyone coming up with a better idea so far.


Little spin-off idea:
Within LFS, on the pre-connect page, there is plenty of space on the right side where a disclaimer (or other information) could be displayed. Either generated by LFS, or the server hosters could provide a text with generic information, privacy related info, web-links etc. I figure it often happens that people are banned and have no idea how to contact the hoster to sort the situation.

I know we already have that "server info text" on the next screen, but it's a rather short text and it's only shown *after* the client initiated the connection and the server has accepted it. Therefore something shown before connecting, leaving the client time to decide whether he wants to accept the conditions and connect would be a benefit for everyone and it would also sort any GDPR concerns for all time.
But guess who is an business here? LFS side. Hence they need to break the status quo now in order to make sure they themselfs comply with GDPR. Question being if they go into hassle of implementing that Terms of Use window before any user connects or will cut you out from this more or less ambigous data. Personally I'd love the latter option, as it should be the least development time consuming, so that so work on night mode can resume, after the grand patch, we can come back to this matter, with all those hashy / ToS windows ideas.
Quote from https://gdprhub.eu/Article_4_GDPR :A person is "identified" when they can be directly distinguished or "singled out" from a larger group of persons, based on the information. This can be achieved through several 'identifiers' listed by Article 4(1) GDPR, such as the name, identification number, locations, online identifiers, physical, physiological, genetic, mental, economic, cultural or social identity of a particular person. Other examples are provided by the Working Party 29 like telephone number, car registration, social security numbers and passport numbers as well as a person’s height, hair colour, clothing or professional qualities. Note that the name of a person is therefore not necessarily required to identify an individual as there are often more unique identifiers.

A person is "'identifiable' when they have not been identified yet but where identification is possible through a combination of available pieces of information. It can be unclear what is still 'identifiable' and what is not anymore. Different people may have different abilities to identify a person, and different contexts or situations may lead to different answers as to the person being identifiable. Recital 26 clarifies that "to determine whether a natural person is identifiable, account should be taken of all the means reasonably likely to be used... either by the controller or by another person to identify the natural person".

Starting point is therefore an absolute (objective) approach that generally considers both information of the controller as well as information from any other entities to identify a person. However, the 'reasonable likeliness' of such information being used by the controller or a third party, narrows the approach. In this regard, Recital 26 adds that in order "to ascertain whether means are reasonably likely to be used to identify the natural person, account should be taken of all objective factors, such as the costs of and the amount of time required for identification... the available technology at the time of the processing and technological developments".

In other words, while not all of the information required to identify the person needs to be in the hands of the controller the mere hypothetical possibility to identify the person with the information from other entities is not sufficient. Thus, the assessment requires a case-to-case decision on the reasonable likeliness to identify an individual, taking into account the use of state-of-the art tools, available sources, costs, time, and effort requried to identify the individual. The assessment is factual and is not limited to lawful means to identify a person, when it is reasonably likely that an actor could also use unlawful ways to identify a person.

In C-582/14 Breyer the CJEU had to consider if IP addresses enable the identification of a natural person. The IP address is the number under which a computer or smartphone can be reached over the internet. Almost every controller exchanging information with a data subject over the internet will have to use the IP addresses. IP addresses can be dynamic (meaning the number is lost every 24 hours or every time a customer restarts their internet modem) or fixed (which means the number is always associated with the same customer). It may be that such a number is associated with a user account, in which case it becomes personal data. Even if the number itself may not be linkable by a controller, governments but also private entities may have legal powers to access subscriber details in relation to the IP-address. The CJEU found that even in such cases, the IP address can constitute personal data.


CJEU - C-582/14 - Breyer, margin number 49.

This example from case law shows that many data types may constitute personal data in one situation and not in another situation. Usually controllers and processors cannot, for example, determine if an IP address in their log files is dynamic or fixed. In practice this may mean that controllers or processors choose to treat all IP addresses as if they are personal data, to ensure compliance with the GDPR.

Furthermore, taking the increasing accessibility of information through means such as big data technologies and device fingerprinting into consideration, measures to successfully identify individuals are becoming increasingly effective. Additionally, because more information is continuously added to individual data sets and stored over a longer period of time, persons are significantly more likely to be identified.

TLDR; you know in what direction this is going

And what is stated is right,

Quote :but also private entities may have legal powers to access subscriber details in relation to the IP-address

I know people which got doxxed because there where people working for telecom companies which on request looked up private subscriber data with the help of an IP address. It quickly escalates in hate crimes, no joke. In my country it even went that far that grave desecration took place. Completely nuts. It are not paranoia thoughts, this is really taking place nowadays.
Quote from cargame.nl :TLDR; you know in what direction this is going

And what is stated is right,

Yes indeed Cool
#56 - cuni
Relevant but off-topic :
EU is planning (still on gathering feedback period) a new mass surveillance law that includes mandating data retention, built-in backdoors, sanctioning non-compliant services and is asking you for feedback

TLDR :
  • Universal identification and data retention, every click, message, and connection must be logged under your legal name, turning the entire population into perpetual suspects.
  • Encryption smashed: providers must supply data “in an intelligible way” (Rec 27.iii), forcing them to weaken or bypass end-to-end encryption whenever asked.
  • Backdoors by design: hardware and software makers are ordered to bake permanent law-enforcement access points into phones, laptops, cars, and IoT devices (Rec 22, 25, 26).
  • Privacy shields outlawed: VPNs and other anonymity tools must start logging users or shut down.
  • Criminalized resistance: services or developers who refuse to spy on their users face fines, market bans, or prison (Rec 34).
  • No one exempt: the rules cover every “electronic communication service”, from open-source chat servers to encrypted messengers to vehicle comms systems (Rec 17, 18, 27.ii).

https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-say/initiatives/14680-Impact-assessment-on-retention-of-data-by-service-providers-for-criminal-proceedings-_en

Reddit thread
For now, I have provided an option to show guest IP addresses.

Next time you restart your host, IP addresses will not be displayed by default. But you can switch them on with an option in the basic settings.

This is not what I was hoping to do in the first place, to really improve privacy by hiding the IP address, but it does (or can) help a bit.

1) Minimum disruption. People who want to use the IP address on paid hosts still can.
2) Reduce general visibility of IP addresses. They will only be there if the option is enabled, and never in free hosts.
3) The master server is aware of the setting, so I can make it visible in the list or show a warning to joining guests.

I'd rather not work on a unique identifier to identify the guest's PC or LFS installation with a random number at this time. There are too many distractions and not enough development time so some things will have to wait if I don't really have to do them at the moment.

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