The online racing simulator

Poll : Should SCAVIER consider a LFS Track Editor/Environment Editor release?

Yes, AFTER tyre physics and other feature are released.
95
Yes, BEFORE tyre physics and other features are released.
30
No, just let Eric do his thing.
17
Nope.
4
LFS Track Editor (Environment Editor) [Feasibility]
Spin off from: https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/108076 (Thanks juliao!)

I am a huge supporter of this idea as well, and have similar concerns to seeing lot of ripped or very poorly made content being added. Hopefully SCAVIER can work together with the community to make it work well for everyone.

Maybe one day Scawen can release a track editor (just like the vehicle editor) where we are free to make our own worlds and drive around them online. But before coming to that point, maybe its best if it is done in stages?

Obviously a lot of time would be required from Scawen (in making the public version of the track editor), and it would take the community some time to learn and create environments that are top-notch quality. Maybe it's something to consider prioritizing over tyre physics, day/night, changing weather/seasons or anything (awesome) else that Scawen is working on? Could the community rally together to re-launch LFS with just the track editor so that LFS is made visible to the current generation of sim racers? Or would that need to wait until the updated tyre physics are ready?

My suggestions regarding the track/environment editor are,

1) Discuss with the community of the intention of the release/timeline of the LFS track/environment editor. Feature requests/limited beta testing.

2) Decide if its going to be any-thing goes (like the auto-x system) or if it is going to be very selective process.

3) Have a strict vetting process to decide what sort of thing will be accepted for LFS online use, and what will not (if we're going with the latter, at least at first). Maybe anything goes for offline use?

4) Consider new environments as an extension of the existing tracks giving them way more prominence than the "staff picks" flair that car mods are getting (and my god, the quality of some cars are just amazing!). Hopefully, user's proposals on environments could be vetted and their development tracked (pun intended) as they progress to ensure that top-notch quality environments are created to cater race, drift, cruise, rally (and flying?!) fans of LFS. Imagine all the possibilities? Also, S4?

Ah, one can dream! What do you guys think?
I feel like we had waited enough for the new physics. I don't think anyone is waiting for it anymore, maybe we're expecting it to show up with the Night Graphics one day, but not waiting. Nobody is talking about it and nobody is thinking about it. We just know it will come out one day and that's fine by me because we all found out that that's a lot of work for one person.

Quote :Wed 25 Nov 2009 ~ Patch Z28 Release
....does not contain the new tyre physics.....
Read more: https://www.lfs.net/news/896

I've read the quoted article right when it was posted. More than a decade has passed. LFS already has great physics without the new physics, so I don't see why not go for fresh content first. Especially, if a early release of Track Editor can work with both versions of LFS (the one we currently use and the one which is developed on the side with the new physics).

Just a comment on my vision of the track editor. In my eyes, tracks should be available in single player for sure, because you have to test them somehow. Also, they should be public/private with user access like mods. That way, servers can be more competitive, currently the competition is mostly based on Insims.

I voted Yes, BEFORE tyre physics and other features are released.
After phys/lighting/multithreading. On its own, this is already a huge undertaking and it for sure should not be sidetracked again by another "can of worms" as eclipse already mentioned. This way one would also avoid all potential compatibility issues. To succesfuly create a decent track takes enourmous amount of work and creativity, it should be done when lfs is ready for it.
I'm from Assetto Corsa, where there are a lots of mods.
More are bad sh*t, but there are also mods that are even far better than original stuff. Both cars and tracks.
Even now, I'm using Assetto Corsa to improve skills in real life Drifting. And not because AC physics is better than LFS, but simply because in AC I can build my own car and, more important, I can build the "tracks" where I can drive also in real life.

I think that in 2024, there is no reason to "lock" the contents of a PC simulator.

PS: actually, the ability to use mods is the reason why 90% of gamers use pc instead consolle.
Quote from BAY_Angor :I think that in 2024, there is no reason to "lock" the contents of a PC simulator.

Hello,

I agree with you on that. I am glad that SCAVIER finally opened up to car mods after all the years (and integrated it into LFS seamlessly).

I am just thinking out loud; maybe in hindsight the mod system could have been envisioned and released maybe 5 or 10 years earlier than it was actually released. Whilst the physics may need improvements, saying it is good enough is an understatement.

For me, personally, I tried all the big ones when they came out (rFactor, netkar pro, iracing, AC) for a short time and nothing 'felt' as good and as natural as LFS. Of course this was years and years ago, and I have not tried the others since due to.. well, life.

I guess what irked me the most is the limitation of the content, which I believe lead to the decline in popularity and lessening number of drivers. Given the time taken to develop S1 and S2 cars and tracks by 2005, surely there were more content developed? At least a few more cars along with S3 and Rockingham? I guess we will never know. Then again, its their baby and they set the pace.

That said, some of the car mods coming into LFS are mind-blowing. I am amazed at the time and effort put in by some LFSers. Brilliant job by Scawen in creating the whole vehicle editing aspect and the integration to LFS.

Patience is something some of us are accustomed to. I'll be waiting.

PS: Appreciate your first post in the LFS Forum (after 21 years)!
+1
Well, I myself can't wait for the day of Track Editor privilages. After 10 years of tooling with object editor I'm sure I've hit creativity limits due to its limitations.... I have endless track ideas and can pretty much draft a (well thought out) track config out in 15 minutes... But I can dream Smile

Would definitely wish I can transpose any of these into actual track environments with the elevation and camber I originally dreamt of.











And a few more work-in-progress stuff yet to be released 😎
Some day man, some day it may be a reality Smile
The layout editor as it is has its limitations indeed, but it is still an extremely powerful tool for trackmaking.
Sure, you need some imagination to fully immerse yourself into the bland environment full of concrete blocks around massive parking lot, but once you put these visual challenges past your mind, the end result is very rewarding Smile

Here are some comparisons of the layout editor Portland International Raceway with the irl thing:


Some random blended image from Mexico City:


And some onboard comparison of the New York ePrix circuit:



Long story short, while we will have to wait quite a while for the proper track editor (if it ever gets released to public), I think what we have already is kinda underappreciated and should be explored more, because despite its limits it is still an incredible tool worth using Smile
Attached images
portland_comparison.jpg
I think this could be done in progressive way, improving the layout editor fist

For example, introducing for example a plain grass field location that can allow building tracks that doesn't look like big grey parking lots.




Something like that


Along with that, introducing these three elements: asphalt, gravel trap and grass blocks.
Similar to the current pale cement square blocks, but you can choose from asphalt, gravel and grass.

A "Trees" element should be introduced, and could make all the difference in terms of look.

Those two or three "simple" modifications alone could make a massive difference in layout building.

Custom layouts would look massively better, realistic, and much more immersive than the current grey landscape.







I'm not a dev, so i could be totally wrong, but i'm guessing this shouldn't a daunting task if the LFS engine allows it.

After that, to make a step further you could introduce in the editor a lot of the elements that we see on the official tracks.
Like grandstands, armco barriers, fencing, and a long list of decorative elements.

Along with allowing a more precise gradient for the blocks (like, with 1-2% precision and not 6% like it is today), in order to re-create downhill and uphill sections without it being rough on the suspensions.

-----------


So, i think this could be the first step in the track editing process, wich could come later in the future in a proper way.

But i think that improving the layout editor alone could attract a lot of costumers (Hey! Have you heard? In LFS you can build your own cool tracks and race on them!) and make the modding community go wild with more realistic layouts and sceneries.
I fully agree with all of the above, "only a few" elements can make a huge difference with the layout editor, regarding the immersion and layout variety. That will give us plenty of time to mess with it before a real need for a track editor comes along.

It's just like having more LEGO pieces of different shapes and sizes, that spark the imagination of the creator to build amazing things. The addition of a few types of trees that are already present in the original LFS tracks is more than enough.
Quote from thegamer23 :I think this could be done in progressive way, improving the layout editor fist

For example, introducing for example a plain grass field location that can allow building tracks that doesn't look like big grey parking lots.

snip.

Good idea but it's basically what everyone's whos wanted a Track Editor has been requesting for - sandbox open world, mesh and textured objects and free form tools... however iirc somewhere in forum Eric and Scawen have already mentioned they want to keep the game production to themselves hence no track editor. If there were to be one, it would take a) a lot of convinicing in terms of profit, branding and economical benefit of doing so (more licences, more new users coming onboard just for the editor), and b) probably after the new track worlds have been added...

If a Track Editor were to be made public it'll probably be to specifically chosen users whom have shown building skills and explorative approach to track building (because essentially you'd be doing a percentage of what Eric is already doing) - and I believe it should be as such... having a open source kind of concept like vehicle mods but for Track/sandbox would invite a whole new host of rubbish that Mods will have to sift through. Not to mention the amount of new storage space the servers (and the game size itself) will have to accomodate.
At the current juncture I'd be more inclined to ask Scawen to add two simple things to current LFS Layout Editor...

1) Standard Wall obj but with catchfencing texture (no pass thru obj) above, adjustable in length with fixed wall height
2) A chalk object with pattern or texture that resembles a flat kerb, adjustable in length and color (existing 4 tone)

@Scawen pretty please?
Quote from MicroSpecV :Good idea but it's basically what everyone's whos wanted a Track Editor has been...

I can get that point of view!

But what i was mainly suggesting would be just an improved-upgraded layout editor, rather than a full fledged "Track Editor".

What's the difference of having hundreds of custom layouts on a grey parking area compared to having bit more good-looking and less minecraft-looking layouts over a grass field for example?

(and maybe adding a few new objects just to give the custom layouts little bit more characters)
Quote from thegamer23 :I think this could be done in progressive way,[i][u] improving the layout editor...

wow, BTB, what a throwback
Quote from thegamer23 :I can get that point of view!

But what i was mainly suggesting would be just an improved-upgraded layout editor, rather than a full fledged "Track Editor".

What's the difference of having hundreds of custom layouts on a grey parking area compared to having bit more good-looking and less minecraft-looking layouts over a grass field for example?

(and maybe adding a few new objects just to give the custom layouts little bit more characters)

Yes but by adding terrain objects like grass, asphalt etc it is essentially terraform-based objects... which is basically what a Track Editor will be managing - and that's exactly what's been blocked from being introduced as far as I can remember.

I agree with more objects for sure. Like what I mentioned above, catchfencing, kerb object, and maybe even finer points of adjustment for length,height, angle. But I don't think we'll see terrain objects
If the preferred way to tackle this would be to improve the layout editor first, it will also have an impact on InSim, as it will need to take the additional features into account. The most obvious change would be in the ObjectInfo struct, I think; it would need to increase in size from 8 bytes to whatever is needed for higher precision placement of objects (especially along Z axis and heading), and this could also affect other packets that have parameters using the same format as ObjectInfo (JRR, UCO and AXM use ObjectInfo directly, OBH uses same format for XYZ and index).

With that said, and following what thegamer23 said, I think it could be nice to have grass/gravel/asphalt (and any other type of surface, really) as a flag in what are currently concrete blocks only. That way, combined with higher precision placement, you could make proper terrain within the layout editor. It would most certainly require 2 things, though: a higher object count, which is already an issue for more advanced layout, and as a nice-to-have bonus, a layer system, so the entire layout wouldn't become a cluttered mess from "terrain blocks".

As far as InSim is concerned, the increased ObjectInfo size, plus the increased object count limit, would require more bandwidth, but some clever grouping of values could help alleviate this (this is already the case for some data across InSim).
Quote from Bokujishin :snip.

Thumbs up That's some really good info, sheds more light on what will be affected due to changes.

We could probably do away with more precise placement thru the 2 axis (for now), but we do need more crucial objects like: catchfencing, kerb objects (Scawen where's the New year 2023 teaser kerbs....), and sausage kerbs...

These 3 are really needed for any layout wanting to level up and out of the basics, and from a league standpoint also it's a good thing if cars don't fly off track due to lack of fencing. Currently we make do by substituting fencing with "wall" object shaped like billboards but it's hardly a nice sight...
While catchfencing may require some additional work, I definitely agree kerbs should be a rather easy addition that shouldn't require the new graphics and physics, plus they should not affect object count too much (at least in places where other objects were used instead). I hope they can be included in the next InSim incompatible update (at the very least 0.7F will have some InSim changes, so maybe this could be an opportunity to update object index data?)
Those additional sausage kerbs from the new year screenshots would be a welcome addition at the same time.
Quote from thegamer23 :I think this could be done in progressive way,[i][u] improving the layout editor...

There was actually a mod like this for some older LFS versions that I used. It allowed using trees and weed as objects and grandstands and a lot of other objects that we see on official LFS tracks but are missing from the layout editor. The layouts made together with this mod were online compatible as all the objects were taken from the existing game data. IIRC the players weren't even required to have the mod installed to join the server and see the fully functioning layout with custom objects. Shame that I don't have any other photos of it except for this edited one.

This layout was built with the mod on blackwood parking lot and as you can see I added some trees and weed and grandstand there. If this was possible by a modder to do then it shouldn't be much of hassle for Scawen.
Attached images
kunjiracingb.jpg
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(thegamer23) DELETED by thegamer23
Just to shake things up, and to introduce some more excitement and innovation for LFS, how about considering a limited release of the track editor that Eric currently uses? SCAVIER could invite select community members, especially those with demonstrated skills in car modeling and layout creation, to participate first. This would allow them to gauge how well it works and then decide how to proceed with the integration (if at all).

The development of environments and tracks could be shared publicly, fostering a collaborative and transparent process. While immediate integration into LFS wouldn't be necessary, this approach would keep the community engaged and inspired.

To ensure Scawen can continue focusing on his current development tasks, perhaps Eric could take the lead in assisting users with the current version of the track editor. That would ensure that Scawen can focus on his current development without having to focus on a mild release of an updated layout editor/track editor.

At this stage, I believe their priority is in releasing the updated (development) version with the new tyre physics (imagine the time Scawen can save by avoiding maintaining two separate versions of LFS?).

If the timeline for the above step is uncertain, SCAVIER might consider temporarily pausing other developments to concentrate on developing a public version of the environment/track editor for release in a grand-scale. This focused effort could bring significant long-term benefits to LFS in my opinion.
Gran turismo had a feature where you could drive your favorite road and the GPS data would translate it into the game. Something like this might be too complex, but if there was a way to use existing google earth data to create a IRL location that would be awesome, and im not talking about just IRL circuits, but also that narrow backroad you so recklessly flew down several thousand times in your crazy days
#22 - V_Ro
Quote from [OD :Jardim;2093569"]Gran turismo had a feature where you could drive your favorite road and the GPS...

(As far as I know, that function never appeared in Gran Turismo).It was talked about but it never came out.
Quote from Silverracer :Just to shake things up, and to introduce some more excitement and innovation for LFS, how about considering a limited release of the track editor that Eric currently uses? SCAVIER could invite select community members, especially those with demonstrated skills in car modeling and layout creation, to participate first. This would allow them to gauge how well it works and then decide how to proceed with the integration (if at all).

The development of environments and tracks could be shared publicly, fostering a collaborative and transparent process. While immediate integration into LFS wouldn't be necessary, this approach would keep the community engaged and inspired.

To ensure Scawen can continue focusing on his current development tasks, perhaps Eric could take the lead in assisting users with the current version of the track editor. That would ensure that Scawen can focus on his current development without having to focus on a mild release of an updated layout editor/track editor.

At this stage, I believe their priority is in releasing the updated (development) version with the new tyre physics (imagine the time Scawen can save by avoiding maintaining two separate versions of LFS?).

If the timeline for the above step is uncertain, SCAVIER might consider temporarily pausing other developments to concentrate on developing a public version of the environment/track editor for release in a grand-scale. This focused effort could bring significant long-term benefits to LFS in my opinion.

Yes! Probably more feasible as it'll funnel the content naturally to be closer to stuff that may actually get approved and upped. Instead of influx of random environments and eventually some buggy stuff.
Quote from V_Ro :(As far as I know, that function never appeared in Gran Turismo).It was talked about but it never came out.

The one thing that GT _did_ have was the ability in certain cars (and certain tracks) to drive a lap IRL, download the data from the logger and replay the replay inside GT6. The loggers collected specific data for GT so it could support things like drifting which a GPS logger couldn't do (becuase it wouldn't know the cars AOT)

Cool feature but not a super great use of dev resources.
Quote from Silverracer :Spin off from: https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/108076 (Thanks juliao!)

I am a huge supporter of this idea as well, and have similar concerns to seeing lot of ripped or very poorly made content being added. Hopefully SCAVIER can work together with the community to make it work well for everyone.

Maybe one day Scawen can release a track editor (just like the vehicle editor) where we are free to make our own worlds and drive around them online. But before coming to that point, maybe its best if it is done in stages?

Obviously a lot of time would be required from Scawen (in making the public version of the track editor), and it would take the community some time to learn and create environments that are top-notch quality. Maybe it's something to consider prioritizing over tyre physics, day/night, changing weather/seasons or anything (awesome) else that Scawen is working on? Could the community rally together to re-launch LFS with just the track editor so that LFS is made visible to the current generation of sim racers? Or would that need to wait until the updated tyre physics are ready?

My suggestions regarding the track/environment editor are,

1) Discuss with the community of the intention of the release/timeline of the LFS track/environment editor. Feature requests/limited beta testing.

2) Decide if its going to be any-thing goes (like the auto-x system) or if it is going to be very selective process.

3) Have a strict vetting process to decide what sort of thing will be accepted for LFS online use, and what will not (if we're going with the latter, at least at first). Maybe anything goes for offline use?

4) Consider new environments as an extension of the existing tracks giving them way more prominence than the "staff picks" flair that car mods are getting (and my god, the quality of some cars are just amazing!). Hopefully, user's proposals on environments could be vetted and their development tracked (pun intended) as they progress to ensure that top-notch quality environments are created to cater race, drift, cruise, rally (and flying?!) fans of LFS. Imagine all the possibilities? Also, S4?

Ah, one can dream! What do you guys think?

I don't know if this is possible.
Publishing a circuit to download online on a server is not the same as unloading a car.

It would be easier to add objects to the layout, such as benches with an audience, skin on advertising barriers, things like that.

Creating a track is not the same thing as creating a car.

I prefer to have more tracks created by the LFS after a new LFS update, have more circuits in the LFS and be added to the S3 license and who knows, maybe an S4 with new circuits may come.

I think future LFS updates could include circuit updates and weather conditions such as snow, rain, etc.
1

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