Sorry to take so long to target such low hanging fruit.

NZ Policy to 'Save Our Planet' to go EV only.
https://content.fleetpartners.co.nz/carbonzero?gclid=CjwKCAjws--ZBhAXEiwAv-RNL6viRiBQjqKPXg-ijS5BGmKD-JWLcDB0ui02rXGnNNB0YAXIXGbkORoCUwAQAvD_BwE

Please tell Volcano's to stop pumping out carbon.

Anyway, in NZ/Aus we tend to need what we call Ute's, (a UK test of an extreme example of said ute.)

So, this great UK company LDV, (sorry, what do you mean Chinese ???) But Leyland, this British Institution that brought you the Allegro, the Rover SD1, Austin Metro, How could this company ever claim to achieve so much while producing a vehicle that may, or may not, be a bit of a fluster cluck.

Warning Australian Engineer who does have a bit of a problem with actual (Not advertising company) honesty and who naturally speaks 'Australian'.

We Kiwi's have had to deal with these people for many years and so do not have any problem with 'Australian English' unfortunately however, most of the worlds population, not having years of experience of dealing with 'Australians' may find any 'Australian English' a little bit challenging to their specific snowflake world view. Sorry Europe and the US.
It's just Australians.

The LDV eT60 - our first electric ute.

Hubnut on the joy's, today, re electric vehicles.
Who actually needs to charge them ?, anyway, a small but interesting part of the video.

Why Hubnut ?, he has a NZ Falcon AU that he drove round NZ then later imported to the UK.
Watch and follow, a great channel.

You need Facebook lol, using LFS forums as social media at this point...

Hi Mate (a NZ expression for deescalating an argument or conflict)

This is a sim racing platform and so a discussion on power sources for vehicles seems to be on topic, in an off topic area of the platform.

I, personally, avoid Farcebook like the latest plague as 'reasons'.

So, what are your views on EV's ?

Are they the ultimate solution or a bit of a problem themselves ?

Are hybrids a better choice ?

Is a hydrogen powered hybrid a route to follow ?

We here have a company working hard on using hydrogen as a fuel source for hybrid trucks that is a very interesting use of new technology to remove our reliance on petroleum energy.

Your opinion please.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Hi Mate (a NZ expression for deescalating an argument or conflict)

This is a sim racing platform and so a discussion on power sources for vehicles seems to be on topic, in an off topic area of the platform.

I, personally, avoid Farcebook like the latest plague as 'reasons'.

So, what are your views on EV's ?

Are they the ultimate solution or a bit of a problem themselves ?

Are hybrids a better choice ?

Is a hydrogen powered hybrid a route to follow ?

We here have a company working hard on using hydrogen as a fuel source for hybrid trucks that is a very interesting use of new technology to remove our reliance on petroleum energy.

Your opinion please.

EVs and Alternate fuels were a big part of my first year in college for automotive engineering and at the current spec, I don't think EVs are viable, yet. Will they ever be, ehhhh maybe. It depends on the adaptation and ease of recharging them as well as range. If you're pottering around town and to and from work, quick jumps and can charge at home, cool awesome. Long distance I'd not trust an EV at all.

During my first year we took time to... Theorise the rise of EVs and Alternate fuels looking both at current road-going vehicles and the motorsport world (Did you know Nurburgring 24hr has an Alternate Fuel category?) and the best case scenario is it'd be something like the rise of the ICE decades ago, this luxury high class thing that got adoption by 'lower classes' then the need for fuel exists and more options for refuelling appeared in forms of filling stations, will that happen with EVs? Doubtful. In my OPINION.

Then lets touch on the little topic of carbon reduction, a lot of people say "They're very environmentally friendly!" which yes, they are once driving, but what about the carbon emitted during manufacture, transport, etc. I couldn't find much credible data on this for whatever reason I'm not sure.

Then there's the strain on power production as well, living in a country that's seeing energy prices skyrocket and the possibility of blackouts to ease load burden on the grid, how would we go about fixing that? Disconnect EV chargers and charging from the main grid? That's just moving the problem on one step, power needs to come from somewhere.

Knowing people who own a range of EVs (Teslas' Volkswagens, etc) they are apparently alright cars as long as you remember to plug them in but I hear the same complaint (ish) every time "Charging out on the go is a pain." and I agree with them and can see that, be it the availability of charging or even speed of charging, filling a ICE based car is quick and easy and you're golden, an EV, you can be looking at a long time for a full charge, bearable time for a quick top-up, but if you're on a trip that would benefit from a full charge, then enjoy your stay here (Some places with chargers only allow shortstay! Add a parking fine onto that and you're less golden!)

Then on the EV specific front, amount of available workshops for EVs, at least here you need to go to a specialist, which can be both insanely inconvenient and in a lot of cases, very expensive, gone are the days of driveway work!

Are EVs the future? Maybe, nobody can really tell until its here, alternate fuels could be a good idea granting they are able to fill the void that the eventual removal of petrol and diesel will create, the slow ween off will be fine until a point and really the infrastructure for this needs to move quicker than the demand does.

Its not going to be a quick change, it never will be, some places here are moving in my opinion too quick (some cities banning cars, trucks, diesel vehicles, etc) and there will always be the risk of the movement of policy and law overtaking the position and progress of EV/AF vehicles which will be at best case annoying at worst case massively catastrophic.

Looking at motorsport specifically I am curious of how (much like F1 did in the day) how competition and racing can effect and propel road car development, things such as Formula E, Extreme E and RX-E as well as Moto-E and all the other kinds of electronic and alternate fuel formulas out there.

If I had to give a rough timeframe estimate, I'll likely be in my 40s or 50s (I'm in my 20s now!) before we see any huge meaningful jump forward, but that's the thing of this curve we find ourselves on, we don't see how quick it'll rise, if there are dips and most importantly when it will stop. We'll never be able to wake up one day and go "Right petroleum gone" that just won't work, it'll be gradual, slow and painful.

Regardless of my opinion, I think the market should show everything. And its has already shown quite well, for 10 years Tesla has proved that electric cars are the future, no matter how I feel about it. I think in 10 years, ICE cars will be rare and expensive objects for connoisseurs, and I'm not sure that they can be used on public roads,(if yes, then with big taxes) this is what everything is going to now.

Quote from Aleksandr_124rus :

Regardless of my opinion, I think the market should show everything. And its has already shown quite well, for 10 years Tesla has proved that electric cars are the future, no matter how I feel about it. I think in 10 years, ICE cars will be rare and expensive objects for connoisseurs, and I'm not sure that they can be used on public roads,(if yes, then with big taxes) this is what everything is going to now.

This point is very good, especially about the 10 years ICE cars being expensive, they will also at some point become impractical too, in the UK there's a subsection about 'classic' cars of 20 and 40 years being tax and MOT exempt respectively, but also think about the infrastructure for ICE / fuel burning cars, with ICE cars being less and less common those places must adjust or go, and I think most will, leave and close. Which will make even owning an ICE car difficult and possibly expensive to run too with lower fuel demand meaning lower production and higher pricing (economy of scale)

Quote from Huskii :

This point is very good, especially about the 10 years ICE cars being expensive, they will also at some point become impractical too, in the UK there's a subsection about 'classic' cars of 20 and 40 years being tax and MOT exempt respectively, but also think about the infrastructure for ICE / fuel burning cars, with ICE cars being less and less common those places must adjust or go, and I think most will, leave and close. Which will make even owning an ICE car difficult and possibly expensive to run too with lower fuel demand meaning lower production and higher pricing (economy of scale)

I believe that ICE cars will become much cheaper, apart from collector cars. New ICE cars will be banned in most places anyway, and a lot of people in the market for a new car will look for EV. I think the second hand market will be much cheaper because again, people buying a car will be looking for EVs.

There's always going to be a need for petrol stations, things like the trucking industry which will take much longer to convert over to EV (In a sustainable, safe way at least,) and they will still need fuel infrastructure. Not to mention that many, many people drive cars that are 10, 20+ years old, will still be creating a demand for ICE infrastructure. It may become more expensive to run ICE cars, but it's going to take 25+ years for ICE to start becoming obsolete and for infrastructure to start disappearing.

I'm very much of the opinion that cars, no matter what is used to propel them, are bad for the environment. Both in a physical climate change way and a social way. I find moving over to EVs is just moving the goal posts, there is still crazy amounts of pollution and harm done in producing and running EVs, not to mention issues with slavery and worker safety. Car dependancy alienates people, there is a reason the happiest and safest cities around the world are cities with amazing public transport, plenty of cycling infrastructure and walkable communities, and that reason is the reduced dependancy on cars.

I don't think EVs have a certain future. Time will tell.

I'm not sure about the future of EV's, at the moment i dont see how it would be viable to go EV only for any of the countries in lets say next 25 years... maybe I just lack the vision.

And I've been owning an EV car for last cca 3.5 years, so i kinda have an idea of how it is when you're low on range and the fast charging station nearest to you is occupied or not working. I think at the moment, there's no financially viable way to have an EV and live in a building. If you live in a house maybe..if electricity costs stay relatively low.

EV is certainly a future of mobility. But there is one important word in that sentence we have to pay attention to - the future, not the presence. Electromobility simply is not ready for the mass use yet. And neither is the infrastructure or the society. As a mechanical enginner I see EVs truly viable in about 50 years from now. That is also the point when the smooth transition from ICE-powered cars should happen.
Unfortunately the green lobby is trying hard to push and mandate the EV while actively disrupting the ICE market. But this will only lead to the destruction of both means of transport as one will be effectively banned (and its supply chains destroyed) while the other will prove unfit at given point in time and we will enter the dark ages of transportation.

Quote from Gunn :

I don't think EVs have a certain future. Time will tell.

I'm wondering what all this is based on? In my opinion, there are 3 options, either you speaking at the level of emotions, or you do not know the facts or both at once.
Purely emotionally, perhaps I don’t really like this either, as a connoisseur of the aesthetics of ICE cars I want the ICE cars to stay longer. But when it comes to such reasoning, one should not reason on the basis of emotions, one should give rational arguments. I also do not know what will happen in the future, I do not have a crystal ball where I can see it. But at the same time, I can't oppose anything to the current trends.

Quote from NumberTwo :

I'm not sure about the future of EV's, at the moment i dont see how it would be viable to go EV only for any of the countries in lets say next 25 years....

Quote from michal 1279 :

As a mechanical enginner I see EVs truly viable in about 50 years from now.

The same goes for specific numbers about how long it will take. And I'll try to explain why I'm talking about 10 or maybe 15 years. (About the moment when the majority will choose electric cars.) Of course, we do not know the future, and anything can happen. And I'm only talking about the facts and the trends that are happening now.

1. In July 2021, the European Commission published an official green plan that covered renewable energy, infrastructure upgrades and proposed a ban on the sale of new combustion engine-powered cars from 2035.

The US is going to ban internal combustion engines In the US, as well as in Europe, they plan to abandon cars with internal combustion engines. From 2035, only new cars powered by electricity or hydrogen will be allowed to be sold in California.

The authorities of the Chinese province of Hainan intend in 8 years - by 2030 - to completely ban the sale of cars with traditional gasoline or diesel engines. According to the Xinhua News Agency, by 2025 all public transport, as well as trucks and buses, will be switched to electricity.

Now imagine yourself in the shoes of the manufacturers of ICE cars . You can't keep deliveries of ICE cars at the same level until 2035 (or 2030) and abruptly stop produce and selling? What to do with leased space for factories? with employees? With equipment? And conveyorized automated factories? This means that all manufacturers in Europe, USA, China and others Western countries will smoothly switch to making electric cars by 2035. And customers at some point will simply have no choice.

Yes, perhaps some countries in Asia, the Middle East, and Africa will still use cars with internal combustion engines. But even they will not be able to resist trends for long. And in some specific countries it may even take 25-50 years. But In Norway, most cars (about 80%) are already electric.

2. In addition to laws, there is now a market trend for electric cars, everyone knows about tesla. But do you know about Geely? Wuling? BYD? BAIC? Nio? JAC? Byton? And others. Some of these vehicles are superior to the Tesla in price and range.
The emergence of new manufacturers increases market competition, the increase in the model range of individual manufacturers occupies new market niches, the increase in production volumes and automation factories reduces production costs, and all this reduces the price.
And this is the key point. as long as the price of electric cars continues to fall, this will increase the demand for electric cars. And you can see it in the pictures with the statistics where you can see that in China the Wuling and BYD models are already buying more than Tesla.

3. The green lobby and the global warming lobby, I think all of you understand that this also plays an important role here. Now there is obviously a trend towards the transition to renewable energy sources. And this lobby not only promotes, but also influences states to give subsidies to electric car manufacturers and raise taxes on ICE cars. Also, often customers in different countries are given different discounts, benefits and bonuses for buying electric cars.

4 Infrastructure, let's talk about Russia now as an example. Russia is a conservative country that politically opposes the West. And he tries to resist many political decisions of the West. It would seem that lobbying for electric vehicles is also largely a political decision of the West. But even Russia does not go against it. Russia is not as wealthy per capita as many countries in the West, but Russia is still building a lot of gas stations to fill up cars, even though we have banned the supply of Western automakers. And we do not yet have our own electric car manufacturers, while we are hoping for supplies from China at a time when in China itself there is now a strong demand for electric cars that manufacturers cannot provide. But even Russia continues to build charging stations for electric cars. Whereas already now in the USA and many Western countries there are apparently no big problems with charging stations.


This is my opinion why it won't take as long as you say. This opinion is based on facts that are already is the objective reality given to us in sensation. And purely on an emotional level, I want the ICE cars to stay longer, but even if I don't like my opinion, I can't change the facts. Emotionally I can only hope that facts will change. But rationally, I understand that perhaps this is not necessary.

I'm talking about technological readiness of EVs.
Just because EU and other organisations that are completely out of reality ban ICEs, it won't suddenly make EVs viable option, they'll just ideologically kill the other means of transport. And leaving EVs as the only option won't suddenly make it viable - it will just be the only option. A painful one to take. And all the subsidies, taxes and bans won't change that.

In Apollo era the NASA planned to send human expedition to Mars by 1980s. 40 years later still no footsteps in martian soil. The only difference is in thier case it was a non-binding estimation, not a hard target they'd aim for no matter what the reality is. Guess what, they figured out they need more technological advancement to fulfill that goal and also there are other programs they could/should concentrate on.
Now it is technologically realistic that we can put human on Mars in 2030s; but EVs are still in their "1980s" stage - setting a goal in highly specific timeframe, but only hoping that the technological (and infrastructural) advancement is made within that time instead of being backed up by it already.

Quote from michal 1279 :

I'm talking about technological readiness of EVs.
Just because EU and other organisations that are completely out of reality ban ICEs, it won't suddenly make EVs viable option,

Electric vehicles are now technically ready. They are on average faster than ICE cars. They have a 2 or 3 times higher efficiency. Range is now comparable. The only thing is the scalability of production. Thats Why manufacturers are building more factories and increasing supplies.
Where do you see problems here?

Quote from michal 1279 :

they'll just ideologically kill the other means of transport. And leaving EVs as the only option won't suddenly make it viable - it will just be the only option. A painful one to take. And all the subsidies, taxes and bans won't change that.

Yes, that's how it works. If you need a new car and you see that only electric cars are being sold, then you buy an electric car. I didn't think it needed to be explained.

Quote from michal 1279 :

In Apollo era the NASA planned to send human expedition to Mars by 1980s. 40 years later still no footsteps in martian soil. The only difference is in thier case it was a non-binding estimation, not a hard target they'd aim for no matter what the reality is. Guess what, they figured out they need more technological advancement to fulfill that goal and also there are other programs they could/should concentrate on.
Now it is technologically realistic that we can put human on Mars in 2030s; but EVs are still in their "1980s" stage - setting a goal in highly specific timeframe, but only hoping that the technological (and infrastructural) advancement is made within that time instead of being backed up by it already.

All you're doing here is making an analogy. An analogy can be used if you want to explain something to the interlocutor but not when you want to make a argument. I don't want to attack you, but I don't like analogies and I'll explain why. Analogy is not argument by default. So I don't even have to answer it. Because an analogy is a comparison of two things by one or more properties.
I, too, can compare electric cars with Ford's car revolution for example, when in 20 years America turned into a car country. So what it means? That electric cars same like ICE cars? (But at least this analogy was understandable because we are talking about cars here and there.) Or I can compare a finger and ass. These are 2 different things. They both have skin and have blood in it, and sweat cells for example. Does this mean that a finger and an ass are the same things? No. So what analogy means? Nothing. Anything can be explained by analogy simply by comparing one with the other. It has no argument.

There is such a thing as the laws of logic, it's good to know when you're arguing. For example - the law of identity When we talk about electric cars, we talk about flying to Mars, this is a violation of the law of identity cuz when you talk about going to mars, you are talking about going to mars. Not about electric cars. These 2 things are different for a huge number of reasons that I will tire of listing. But all these reasons can be reduced to the fact that going to Mars is not the same as increasing the scalability of the production of electric vehicles. They are just different things. So thats why Analogy is not argument.

The analogy is also bad because it does not get me closer to understanding why you think that electric cars technological readiness not ready or something.

Quote from Aleksandr_124rus :

Electric vehicles are now technically ready. They are on average faster than ICE cars. They have a 2 or 3 times higher efficiency. Range is now comparable. The only thing is the scalability of production. Thats Why manufacturers are building more factories and increasing supplies.
Where do you see problems here?

I see problems in things you (maybe deliberately) didn't mention. And those you mentioned are skewed anyway.
Do I care about 'faster than ICE' when buying a family car? Not really, Noone does unless they are buying an actual racecar. Faster than ICE is not an argument to buy EV for 'normal people'.
2-3 times more efficient and comparable range - cool, what is the EV efficiency after 7 years of service at temps around 0°C (freezing point of water)? Not that impressive, right? Batteries don't like too cold or too hot environments.
I'm more interested in scalability of usefulness before diving into scalability of production

Quote from Aleksandr_124rus :

Yes, that's how it works. If you need a new car and you see that only electric cars are being sold, then you buy an electric car. I didn't think it needed to be explained.

What argument is this?
And if they ban EVs then you simply ride a horse, right?
I'd prefer to make my own selection instead of being told (and forced to) what they think is right.

Quote from Aleksandr_124rus :

All you're doing here is making an analogy. An analogy can be used if you want to explain something to the interlocutor but not when you want to make a argument. I don't want to attack you, but I don't like analogies and I'll explain why. Analogy is not argument by default. So I don't even have to answer it. Because an analogy is a comparison of two things by one or more properties.
I, too, can compare electric cars with Ford's car revolution for example, when in 20 years America turned into a car country. So what it means? That electric cars same like ICE cars? (But at least this analogy was understandable because we are talking about cars here and there.) Or I can compare a finger and ass. These are 2 different things. They both have skin and have blood in it, and sweat cells for example. Does this mean that a finger and an ass are the same things? No. So what analogy means? Nothing. Anything can be explained by analogy simply by comparing one with the other. It has no argument.

Analogy can be a great argument if you understand the point why the analogy was used (which apparently didn't happen here). In this case, the analogy was used to prove, that setting hard deadlines without having secured the path (technological, infrastructural, social,...) usually does not lead to a success, at least not it that early highly optimistic timeframe. That's why NASA dind't get to Mars by 1980s and that's why I think the car market wil not be fully electric by 2030/2035 and if it does, it will be a disaster.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - that's why we use examples from past, so we don't fail the same way again

But when we are at analogies, I will gladly borrow your Ford's car revolution turning America into a car country in 20 years. When that did happen, did someone ban horses by 1915 and execute remaining horses by 1920? (I'm exaggerating a bit, but maybe that will help you understand my 'argument'). Did the market transfer on its own once people found out the Ford is more practical mean of trasport than a horse? Or did the government force them to use it by 1915? Why can't we make the transition from ICE to EV the same way?

Make a good product and people will be happy to buy and use it, instead of forcing them to use it because you said so

Quote from Aleksandr_124rus :

The analogy is also bad because it does not get me closer to understanding why you think that electric cars technological readiness not ready or something.

I'll recap some of my concerns:

- Range is not really that much comaparable, esp. with older car and when it's too cold/too hot. EV is a great small city car, but once you need to get across a country, it is a nightmare.
- Accumulators significantly degrade with time and charging cycles, further reducing the range and usefulness. By the time ICE is still perfectly fine, the EV is ready for scrapyard (because buying new EV is more viable than changing the battery in old one).
- Charging rate is not very impressive and the fast charging increases the battery degradation even more.
- EVs on fire are very difficult to be put out, they even tend to reignite hours or even days after.
- The electricity cost in Europe is not very friendly lately, and might get even worse with green agenda shutting down reliable nuclear power plants. This can make EVs very pricey in the future unless you have house with massive solar panels.
- More... (not into writing long essays atm)


Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of EVs (after all I'm the only one in LFS community running a major EV championship) and the day EVs are actually viable I'll be happy to buy one, but that is still a bit too far and the 'mandatory' approach in transition from ICEs to EVs makes me kinda upset about the whole thing.

Quote from michal 1279 :

I see problems in things you...

I will say, I disagree with a lot and I agree with a lot, because it is already becoming impossible to write a short and capacious comment that will answer everything, so i feel like respond to all of this is splitting hairs with essay writing.

But in my comments, I did not say that everything that happens is right or morally justified (And I don't understand why you attributed this to me). Like I said before I was just describing what facts and trands is happened. So in many ways we talked about different things.

Quote from michal 1279 :

- Range is not really that much comaparable, esp. with older car and when it's too cold/too hot. EV is a great small city car, but once you need to get across a country, it is a nightmare.
- Accumulators significantly degrade with time and charging cycles, further reducing the range and usefulness. By the time ICE is still perfectly fine, the EV is ready for scrapyard (because buying new EV is more viable than changing the battery in old one).
- Charging rate is not very impressive and the fast charging increases the battery degradation even more.
- EVs on fire are very difficult to be put out, they even tend to reignite hours or even days after.
- The electricity cost in Europe is not very friendly lately, and might get even worse with green agenda shutting down reliable nuclear power plants. This can make EVs very pricey in the future unless you have house with massive solar panels.
- More... (not into writing long essays atm)

But thanks to what you wrote at the end, I understand better what you meant. And I agree with a lot of those things. And what I just can not verify as I do not own electric cars. I, like many others, just trying to learn something about the topic. But maybe in those 10-15 years a lot of this things could improve.

About the batteries. I heard something about long warranty periods, for example Tesla. Doesn't it include free replacing the batteries when they lose efficiency by a certain percentage? Although it is possible that this is simply too expensive for the manufacturer.

About range, I was talking about powerful Tesla top models which may drive about 650km or Mercedes EQS witn 727km range or Zeekr 001 with 732km range. But if we also compare among powerful ICE cars, then as a rule they have high fuel consumption, and often they cannot even drive 500km at one gas station. And yes, I understand that the declared range figures in electric cars greater from the real ones by 10-30%. And cars with ICE and low fuel consumption can drive more than 1000 km. But for 100 years ICE cars have already been improved and optimized many times in all aspects. If we are so fond of analogies, in the 1930-40 cars are also great fuel consumption, so for electric cars this is still beginning. By comparison, Tesla's top model in 2012 had range of 426km. And this number has improved in 10 years.

I agree that the switch to electric cars should be market driven and not forced by lobbies or states, I don't like what's going on but I can't change the facts.

Quote from michal 1279 :

that's why I think the car market wil not be fully electric by 2030/2035 and if it does...

And we talk about different things even here, because what I was saying is -

Quote from Aleksandr_124rus :

And I'll try to explain why I'm talking about 10 or maybe 15 years. (About the moment when the majority will choose electric cars.)

Moment when the majority will choose electric cars is not the same when market will be fully electric, because majority is not a all people, and because the car market still contains an resale market, which probably will still be filled with ICE cars. And I have never talked about the sum of all the cars on the market at a particular moment. Because even if most people choose an electric cars, this does not cancel all existing ICE cars on market. And these two points do not contradict each other, because in theory it could be that at the moment when the majority chooses electric cars on new market cars, at the same moment, the majority of cars on the all market can be ICE cars. That's why I talked mostly about the car market of new cars, which is vast majority of it likely to be all-electric (and not all because in addition to electric cars, there are also cars that run on hydrogen and other gases, or biofuels.). And then ICE cars with a drop in demand, it may even become cheaper at first, and if it happens there for vast majority will be 2 choices, buy a cheap used ICE car with high taxes, or a new electric one with some sorts of benefits.

Great to see the conversation regarding infrastructure, a very valid issue.

Here, just for the LOL's is the NZ Govt policy.... "Yeah, Right"
https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/vehicle-types/electric-vehicles/

Want to know how many EV charging stations I have available within 80Km ???, 0, this is actually correct, none, zero, zip, nada.....
This info is from our Govt.

Which would appear to suggest that your cheap imported Nissan Leaf is not the vehicle to actually travel anywhere to here.

"...As you’d expect, this results in accelerated degradation. It’s not uncommon for earlier model Leafs to suffer up to 23% energy loss in the first six years. That may not sound like a ton, but for a car that started with a potential 135km range on a full battery, that’s a reduction to 104km before it’s even celebrated its seventh birthday"
https://thespinoff.co.nz/money/25-05-2021/the-one-big-problem-with-new-zealands-favourite-electric-vehicle

And I live within 2 hours (130 Km (cus traffic)) of our capital, in the NZ equivalent of a major town on 2 State Highways, 3 & 4, and still zero infrastructure.

Still, isn't the propoganda awesome..
https://genless.govt.nz/for-everyone/on-the-move/consider-electric-vehicles/why-buy-an-ev/

Racer X NZ, your view biased and too focused on the special situation in NZ.
Many things do not apply to other places.

Quote :

And I live within 2 hours (130 Km (cus traffic)) of our capital, in the NZ equivalent of a major town on 2 State Highways, 3 & 4, and still zero infrastructure.

You say yourself it is "the NZ equivalent of a major town" but for many other people would probably not considered it a major town.
You live on a thinly populated island that is smaller than some EU countries in the middle of the ocean.
For example, comparing with Germany:
size:
NZ: 269652 km² - 19 peoplepersons per km²
GER: 357588 km² - 235 peoplepersons per km²
Roughly comparable in size but very different countries.
The most densely populated area in NZ is only a bit more dense than Germany on average. Biggest NZ town would be #40 in Germany and nobody would be able to accurately find it on a map because it is so unremarkable.
No surprise that the infrastructure is worse.

If anything it is amazing how popular EV are in New Zealand, despite these odds. But your article actually explains it.

Quote :

Which would appear to suggest that your cheap imported Nissan Leaf is not the vehicle to actually travel anywhere to here.

In your posted article it says that the below-average battery life is because the Leaf does not have heating/cooling for its battery.
Extreme temperatures are bad for batteries and every other EV has temperature regulation.
The Leaf is a cheap car, so that feature was left out.
Luckily, compared to many other places, NZ has no extreme temperatures and a mild climate. So maybe those 18000 Leafs in NZ are doing better than average.
Also, there is always the question: How much range do peoplers need?

Quote from michal 1279 :

In Apollo era the NASA planned to send human expedition to Mars by 1980s. 40 years later still no footsteps in martian soil. The only difference is in thier case it was a non-binding estimation, not a hard target they'd aim for no matter what the reality is.(...)

Sorry for the offtopic but Apollo program was exactly the opposite. Its hard target no matter what was to put a man on the moon before the decade is out.
Several problems were solved by throwing money and material at it.

Quote :

EVs are still in their "1980s" stage - setting a goal in highly specific timeframe

I doubt that.
Most types of batteries already existed in basic forms in 1980 but their wikipedia articles all mention several advances.
Would you want a 1980's battery in your phone or laptop? Not to mention general advances in electronics, constructions etc.

Quote :

EV is a great small city car, but once you need to get across a country, it is a nightmare.

There is much talk about range, speed and charging times. How much do they actually matter?
The usage statistics of cars show that the average trip length is a few kilometers with 1-2 persons in the car, often just 1 person.
How often does one really need to get across a country by car?
Common usage is that the car drives to work (say 5-100km) some shopping, then the car stands still over night.
An EV can do that. Any small car can do that.
So why do people buy big cars?

Yes, my view is biased to where I live, that should hardly be surprising really.
Yes, I live in a location which has a low population and yet quite long distances.

And, if Auckland only reaches no 40 in Germany (no idea, can't be bothered checking this) then fine. The point I was trying to make is that in NZ, our govt is busy making me pay for people to buy EV's and also making me pay extra to buy a non EV that actually does what I need from a vehicle.

We have sweet FA infrastructure so even if I wanted to 'Save the Planet' by buying an EV it's not going to be a viable solution until our Govt gets their finger out of where ever it is currently located and actually puts in place the infrastructure to support the crap they are currently spouting telling us all to buy EV's and financially punishing us for making a rational choice and purchase a vehicle that actually works in our current situation.

My other very major concern with EV's is what measures do countries have CURRENTLY to recycle lithium batteries to prevent waste and pollution, not to mention the serious Health and Safety concerns with fire from these batteries, especially with the storage of waste batteries when not recycled efficently. ?

FYI, we have zero idea on how to deal with these batteries... And not only us.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/intense-lithium-ion-battery-fire-risk-could-be-dampened-with-refund-scheme/FQ5GZN4X7ZJSR5AESDLV5HABIM/
https://ourauckland.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/news/2022/12/batteries-put-in-household-recycling-or-rubbish-key-cause-of-truck-fires/
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/12/recycling-firm-fined-after-tossed-batteries-cause-garbage-truck-fires/
"While this case involves the owners of an e-waste business that (by law) should have known better than to toss batteries into standard recycling, batteries continue to be the leading cause of fires in the waste stream. A 2018 survey of recycling facilities by the California Product Safety Council found that 83 percent of 26 facilities had a fire in the two years prior, and 65 percent of them were caused by batteries. A study in MDPI by Austrian professors found that, amid increased numbers of fires and significant potential for damage, "No other substance or material has ever comparably endangered the whole waste industry" as discarded portable batteries."