The online racing simulator
February Progress Report
(150 posts, closed, started )
AC is a great sim in many ways, but being able to only race AI in my timezone is a pretty big FeelsBadMan
Quote from gu3st :AC is a great sim in many ways, but being able to only race AI in my timezone is a pretty big FeelsBadMan

feel ya on that one.

well back on topic. i think maybe it would be an idea to look at rally games headlights and how they made it. in rally games the headlights is sometimes vital for a corner to see. so they light up well. and this could be used for LFS if given the time a care for it it needs.
most rally games has a very good lightning if having night driving normally.
so perhaps worth to look into ?
Quote from Scawen :Hello Racers,

We aren't ready to do a full progress report this month...At this point it is not certain that it will be released. This must be taken in the spirit of a progress report...if this experimental work is to be released.

mhm

Quote from Big Daddy :Seriously man, your comment is tons of tons dumb.

Seriously.

lol
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It's nice to see other work being done, but it would be nice to focus on getting the tracks all updated and released then moving on to experimental works. With there being 2 different version to work on right now, why not focus all the time and energy into getting 1 version and getting the physics completed already. Good new but also sad news.
I disagree, this is quite a substantial change by itself, and could well require changes to how the tracks are updated (lighting and what-not). It therefore makes sense to at least consider what changes would be necessary to the tracks before they are all completed and then have to be redone again.
Also that's not how code works. Both will be merged to the main fork when the features are ready
Quote from KeiichiRX7 :Also that's not how code works. Both will be merged to the main fork when the features are ready

Unfortunately Scawen's described the current state and there are 2 divergent branches of LFS. The currently public version and the version with new tyre physics (and I presume graphics). There isn't a "master branch" with feature branches for tyre physics and a separate branch for graphics that have been rebased with trunk frequently.

Scawen has stated he wishes to get back to a single master branch again, as currently any "critical" changes are having to be implemented twice, once in the public fork, and then again in the experimental fork
OK, my first impression was that of an overwhelming "WOW". I really wanted to jump into XRT and take it for a spin around a night South City. Unfortunately then I realized that the year is 2019 and nVidia has working consumer hardware with support for real raytracing lighting. Uhat LFS seems to have is a static lighting model with lightmaps and textures. It still looks pretty good but it is the technology of late nineties and you can tell. For instance the cockpit shot of SO looks pretty unnatural. I know that this is a WIP and things will improve until it's released but real dynamic lighting just looks better, especially when things are in motion.

Quote from KeiichiRX7 :Finally a name or two i recognize

Damn straight, right? It was so weird seeing all these people here with pre-2010 registration dates whom I haven't heard of in years...
To be clear, the purpose of the lighting experiment is to allow any time of night or day to be selected. It is to create an acceptable result as time passes from day into night. In no way am I trying to create the best night lighting you can see in a game.

The latest technology has nothing to do with what I am trying to do here. I am trying to do sufficient lighting to allow basic functionality that allows us to share lighting between tracks and for time to pass so that realistic sun positions and 24 hour races could be possible.

I tried quite hard to avoid having to work on night lighting, but couldn't think of a way to limit shared lighting configurations to the times of day we could support, considering that sunrise and sunset times vary so much depending on the track's latitude and the time of year. The new lighting system uses realtime generated shadows so it seems a pity not to allow the sun to move in the sky as time passes, so the tracks always look a little different. This led me reluctantly down the path of the night lighting experiment. I like the results so far, and it doesn't bother me that other games have more advanced lighting systems. I would be disappointed if ours doesn't run at a better frame rate.

By the way, the headlights don't use a texture. They use a shader that calculates the effects of two cones of light with a point source at the headlights and they do diffuse lighting on the surfaces they hit.
Scawen, it's a good experiment, exponentially expanding the content already present in the game. I love the technology of this game, I just wish the new content came at a rate that didn't let the game become stale. Staleness kills fanbases.
Quote from Scawen :To be clear, the purpose of the lighting experiment is to allow any time of night or day to be selected. It is to create an acceptable result as time passes from day into night. In no way am I trying to create the best night lighting you can see in a game.

The latest technology has nothing to do with what I am trying to do here. I am trying to do sufficient lighting to allow basic functionality that allows us to share lighting between tracks and for time to pass so that realistic sun positions and 24 hour races could be possible.

I tried quite hard to avoid having to work on night lighting, but couldn't think of a way to limit shared lighting configurations to the times of day we could support, considering that sunrise and sunset times vary so much depending on the track's latitude and the time of year. The new lighting system uses realtime generated shadows so it seems a pity not to allow the sun to move in the sky as time passes, so the tracks always look a little different. This led me reluctantly down the path of the night lighting experiment. I like the results so far, and it doesn't bother me that other games have more advanced lighting systems. I would be disappointed if ours doesn't run at a better frame rate.

By the way, the headlights don't use a texture. They use a shader that calculates the effects of two cones of light with a point source at the headlights and they do diffuse lighting on the surfaces they hit.

that answers somewhat my thought. okay so there we are. what i like to see is a screenshot of the headlights on say, westhill pointing to a wood fence with vegetation behind it with the headlight beams pointed to both. this would give an idea of how much it illuminates (on a fence first and behind a bush or tree) and how well the beams spread out. you know like when you fast setup your headlights on a mall wall. i am thinking they do illuminate (as i could wakely tell on screenies) but its not that visible on the screens you put up. so perhaps a screenie like described could do some honor.

what i meant in my previous posts is. you know that video i showed you like a year or two ago.
i think the headlights is quite simular to those. they work . yes. but theres alot of things to consider around them aswell. as PeterN also say here.
Quote from PeterN :I disagree, this is quite a substantial change by itself, and could well require changes to how the tracks are updated (lighting and what-not). It therefore makes sense to at least consider what changes would be necessary to the tracks before they are all completed and then have to be redone again.

and is also what i mean. i mean IRL headlights would be (in rightside driving countries) pointing slightly to the right so you dont blind others in cars and at the same time you will be able to see pedestrians and bicycles. i mean adjustments would be a thing to consider aswell along the path of live for speed,right? at first we wanted mirrors. when they arrives, they had settings too. (which is highly appriciated). but that would sort of be the next peoples demand on headlights i would guess. therefore worth to consider i think. but i think as it is now. i drive with them no matter how they look really.
and i really meant that with the headlight glass. heres why.
imagine a multiclass race with lx cars having blue headlights ? GTR´s having yellow headlight glass. and ordinary roadcars had normal white headlights? and ofc the pace car has its own orange roof lights Wink and then think 24H racing . i think you see my point. but this is also useful in folkrace and rally,where you often see yellow glass on headlights. thats why it would be awesome if it was a texture changing the color of the beams according to whatever color the headlight glass is.
i think this little detail can get you alot of points if implemented tbh.
and it would look simply AWESOME ingame.

the short :
would like to see a screenie of fence with bush lighted up by the headlights if possible thank you Smile

EDIT:
if you go clockwise around westhill. then when you get to the bridge. drive left uphill to the road above. then go right to the intersection. the trees to the rightside in the intersection corner are one of the most dark places regarding shadows i think. that would be a great place to see how the headlights do on very dark shades on trees.or RO tunnels. slightly turned so we can see how the beam spreads out along the tunnel wall.

EDIT2:
also as described in earlier posts here. IF cars are to be updated , i am thinking it is considered to have them have pieces falling off and such. so if a new crash system to cars are in thought it would also be necessary to think about having textures have not one that copies the headlights. but a headlight for each individual headlight. this would also make it possible for skinners to have a "closed eye" for drifters (i assume) and you would also be able to use this in racing. individual settings on how lights should be performing(pointing,illumination etc...) on each light.
i think perhaps its a very good idea to leave this project for now. and wait untill cars are updated for the best solution really . who knows. maybe when you update cars you find some other thing that makes this solution somewhat impossible maybe. so i think that is also worth to have in consideration. but i think night or realtime cycles is a great idea. moving clouds have been missed well, since the dawn of LFS really.im still thinking about having airplane stribes on that issue aswell. because you would see one sooner or later IRL aswell and it would be a very very small detail 95% users would never give a thought. but it would still unknowingly add to realism to users.
birds a skie thing too btw. but then again. insects on windshields arent uncommon either . (oops too much detail).but i think its a domino effect with light. i got same problem with the night mod. it just keep giving headaches. and when you find a solution to something. instantly something else gives you a headache. because then it wont fit the first thing you did. (ish). i may be wrong. but it kinda feels like thats where this light thing stands right now.

"my experiences with light in djing and on stages is. light is a tricky thing to deal with and in some cases light alone can make a full band disapear to the crowd on a stage.(ofc the band is still there but the light does to the crowd so they cant see the band) light is just a tricky thing to deal with".

what makes leaves on trees and bushes green? photosyntese that splits the sun´s light due to our atmosphere so the light is bend and therefore giving out another color that eventually is reason that leaves on vegetaion is green.but your eye doesnt see it.red,blue,green.so to me light is the opposite almost as your eye detects it.if that made any sense to you.what illuminates at daytime does not necessarily do so at night time.light is just a tricky one.(which is reason im experimenting with reflective textures in the nightmod)(and it works too) Wink
Rip all players with potato PC have to play during day times only because of a drop in FPS at night.
At the moment I have it so shadow maps are turned off after sunset and headlights are then enabled. The result, at this point, is higher frame rate in the night because the shadow maps are so expensive. But if moonlight is enabled it would be a different story.

Now I'm talking about details before the core system is complete but I think it might be a reasonable option, if moon light is coded, to disable moon light shadows on slower computers. So people don't have to hope for moonless nights.
Quote from Scawen :...disable moon light shadows...

So we don't get... Cool carried away?

Seriously though, awesome looking demo. Thanks for sharing from the 'maybe' file, I know it's a risk Wink
sounds promising Smile Thumbs up
I love the idea that realtime clock would be reflected in the weather/lighting on my server.
Quote from Scawen :At the moment I have it so shadow maps are turned off after sunset and headlights are then enabled. The result, at this point, is higher frame rate in the night because the shadow maps are so expensive. But if moonlight is enabled it would be a different story.

Now I'm talking about details before the core system is complete but I think it might be a reasonable option, if moon light is coded, to disable moon light shadows on slower computers. So people don't have to hope for moonless nights.

Sounds great, I really hope this can make it to a public version.
Will eclipses be possible like in the Shader mod + SOL mod for Assetto Corsa?
Now I have a reason to get a Fanatec setup. Lets go 24h racing??
Quote from Scawen :So people don't have to hope for moonless nights.

Does that mean you have a full cycle of moon also in plans?
Ffb too bad for fanatec
Nice progress update, as usual Smile

Quote from AnnieC :Will eclipses be possible like in the Shader mod + SOL mod for Assetto Corsa?

Why ask about really small (actually useless imo) details when it's just a preview of an experiment?
I'm interested in moon cycle and even the planets, as I do have a general interest in astronomy, so one day I'd like to see the night sky looking right. But that doesn't mean it's 'in the plans'. Of course the moon and planets are a way lower priority than getting the tyres sorted out. So I don't imagine seeing the moon very soon.

At the moment I'm trying to work this into a usable system allowing real time, offset time and static time. Once the system is 'usable' (without going in the editor and manually switching things on or off) then I think I'll be having a look at how the sky could change from day to sunset and night, and making the headlights illuminate the other cars, as these are the most noticeable issues when driving.

The sky transition is one of the toughest things but I will be trying to consider a simple version that can be improved in future.

There are other technical things like separating the ambient artificial lights which are on all the time (pit garages) and lights which are on only at night (floodlights). And making these vary with the sun light and sky light in a physically plausible way, better than the rough version in the animated GIF. Of course artificial lights don't actually vary so that's more of an iris simulation. Also different colour lights and headlight power should be supported.

There are many invisible technical things to do like using the octree to reduce the CPU load of deciding which objects are lit by the headlights of multiple cars, generating the environment map in a more optimal way as the sky changes and many other things that take place behind the scenes when trying to create a convincing world from millions of vertices and triangles.
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February Progress Report
(150 posts, closed, started )
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