The online racing simulator
Hi, guys. Great discussion you've got going here. Lots of knowledgable people here

I read this thread last night (quite awhile ago) so I probably won't remember to hit all the points that are being discussed here.

The original poster's friend said he was setting up his car to deliberately lock the wheels in an effort to regain control of the car. What he didn't say is if he was doing this to lock all four wheels or just two of them, and he didn't say if "regaining control" meant trying to recover from a spin or avoid plowing (understeering at/over the limit) off the track. When I think about regaining control it's all about getting out of a slide I didn't want to be in, so I'll assume he's talking about the same thing.

1) Locking the fronts: This should indeed be a quick way to recover from a slide because in doing so you pretty much kill off all the side force the front tires are producing (not really, it depends on the angle of slide, but it will generally reduce the side force a whole lot very quickly). Depending on what exactly is going on, this could be a very quick way to straighten up the car and might even be quicker than countersteering. So yes, it should indeed work to some extent. However, as many of you pointed out, this isn't the best way to go about things as you can overheat and flat spot the tires. If the purpose is to recover from a spin then the fact that the grip drops off only goes to reducing that side force even more, which would straighten up the car faster. Note that this is different from trying to stop the car as quickly as possible. Here we're interested in recovering from a spin, not stopping ASAP.

2) Locking the rears: I think we all know what happens when you do that. Around you go in a real hurry. The only time I can see this being a useful thing is in a car that is understeering through a slow corner and about to go off the outside of the track. A quick jab of the brakes could get the car more sideways and keep you from going off. A setup like that could of course make for hairy moments during all normal braking maneuvers, so I doubt that's generally a wise thing to do. I sure wouldn't want it, but there could be times when you might want that to recover from a boo-boo.

3) If he's locking all four tires in an attempt to recover from a spin, well, if the balance and so on is just so then this might help too, but it's a bit unlikely. This one probably is not a good idea.

I'm betting that #1 above is what the OP's friend was describing. Indeed, this could very well save you from some nasty moments by nearly killing off all sideforce at the front tires which should indeed straighten up the car in a real hurry, albeit at the expense of the tires. A setup like that will have less braking force at the rear than you could get away with normally (otherwise they'd probably lock too when you emergency-jabbed the brakes to straighten the car), so to have this crutch you're most likely giving up a fair amount of your regular braking performance. He probably brakes earlier going into the corners than somebody with a more typical setup, and probably does not trail brake at all. All braking is done in a straight line.

Bottom line there really is he's most likely giving up performance in many areas of the track in order to have a sort of "oh crap" button at the bottom of the brake pedal for emergency spin recovery. I used to do that in GPL too, but haven't found it necessary in LFS due to my superb driving skills

Some thoughts on ABS: I am not familiar with the current ABS technology in production cars. However, theoretically it should be possible to make a system that under straight line braking outperforms most drivers. The paper one of you posted shows that for the nine or so vehicles they tested this indeed is the case, so perhaps the technology has been to that level for some time now. On the other end of the argument I must agree that perhaps Mario Andretti or the likes might outperform the ABS systems in certain maneuvers, so this is a case where both sides might really be right. ABS technology development is essentially about trying to control the slip ratios better than a human can, so it's more or less a game between the programmers/hardware developers and real drivers. Some may be better than others at it (both on the dev side and the real drivers' side).

Locking wheels and stopping distances: There may be a bit more here than initially meets the eye. First, as most of you have pointed out already, a locked tire produces less grip than a rotating one. The 11% slip ratio "rule" that Wikipedia posted is in the ballpark, but it actually varies quite a bit from one tire to the next. Anyway, that's not important. What's important is that there is some slip ratio where the braking force will be highest, and if you go any higher than that then the braking force reduces (as does the road reaction torque on the wheel). If the brakes aren't released a little bit at that point, the wheel will lock up. If you do this on all four tires then you could expect straight line braking distance to increase.

Another possible scenario is this: The rears might be at the 11% (or whatever) slip where the maximum braking force is. If the fronts are too then this is where you're getting the shortest straight line braking distance. If you then lock up either the front or the rears then the distance will increase due to the grip dropping off after the peak. Keep in mind that the grip when the tires are locked is changing quite a lot throughout time due to the temperature changing, so it's not quite as clean and neat as the force graphs show in the case of a tire that has actually locked. I've seen some old braking test data where an accelerometer was put in a couple of cars to measure the deceleration rate under a panic stop situation. It peaked before the tires locked, then dropped somewhat gradually to a constant (but lower) deceleration rate. So the tires indeed lost grip. This was done with no rear wheel braking at all if I recall correctly, so it was purely the fronts doing all the work.

What's important to understand is that most production cars are built more for safety than performance. For the most part this means directional stability (building in enough understeer so if you suddenly swerve to avoid something at typical highway speeds you don't spin out), but perhaps more importantly, the panic stop/swerve situation. I bet that most sim racers that are really into this wonderful hobby will react very differently to an emergency than your average joe on the street would. Nonetheless, production cars aren't designed to handle the way you and I want, but rather to keep Mom and Pop and their teenage maniac newly-licensed kids safe.

Probably the most important emergency situation that a vehicle engineer is likely to be considering is the panic stop/swerve, as mentioned. I.e., you're puttering along and suddenly there's something stopped in front of you. Average Joe does up to three things in this situation, in this order:

1) He slams the brake pedal to the floor.
2) He steers the wheel wildly in one direction.
3) Upon finding that the front wheels have locked and his car isn't turning at all, he steers the wheel all the way to full lock. Nothing new happens there.

Then, usually there's a crash of some sort

Ok, from the "engineering for safety" standpoint, you want minimum stopping distances. However, you don't want Average Joe to slam the brake pedal to the floor, steer wildly to one side, only to find himself sliding sideways into goodness knows what. One sure fire way to avoid that is to design the braking system so the front wheels lock and the rear wheels do NOT. Ideally, the rear wheels would hit their peak 11% or whatever and at the same time, the fronts lock up.

The purpose of this is to do keep the car straight, which is exactly what the original poster's friend is trying to do. What he's essentially done is designed into his LFS car the same safety feature that's built into our road cars. Does this produce the best stopping distance? Probably not, but it actually might do so indeed depending on how the braking system is set up.

Here's the exception: If the brake pedal on the above car is pushed down to the point where the front wheels are at their 11% slip, the rears will be well below that. So the fronts are making their peak braking force, but there's still plenty more left at the rear. If you now push the brake to the floor, you lock up the fronts, which reduces front grip, but in turn you increase the rear braking. Which one wins? Well... It depends on the car. The point is that from one production car to the next I wouldn't be surprised at all to find some cars that stop better with the front wheels locked and others that stop better with a "best effort" of feathering/pumping the brake.

Ideally really you don't want Joe to spin out or be forced to go straight either. You want the car to react the way Joe wants it to. However, if you have to pick one of the options, it's generally going to be better if he just plows straight ahead into whatever he was trying to avoid while slowing down as much as possible at the same time. Imagine spinning sideways into oncoming traffic or off the road into a tree. It's usually much better just to rearend somebody. Fender benders really don't hurt as much as people think as long as they have their seatbelts on, but people absolutely freak out when they're about to even rear end somebody at 10-20 mph. I saw a video of a bunch of cars sliding one after the other on slick ice into a line of cars. More than half of the people were literally jumping out of their cars to avoid the impact. Bumper cars hurt more than that, so stay in the car!

Enter ABS and other systems. As many of you pointed out, the main reason for ABS and stability control on production cars is to keep the fronts from locking, which sends Joe straight into whatever he was trying to steer around. At the same time, in a straight line, a regular braking system assisted with ABS is able to go ahead and try to keep all the slip ratios at 11%. When he turns the wheel to avoid the big bad object, without the ABS the wheels would then suddenly lock. ABS will relieve some of that brake pressure so the slip ratios stay at 11% (or whatever the ABS designer wants it too; the algos are probably much more complex than that), so he's able to get plenty of braking but also is able to steer around the big bad obstacle (BBO), while at the same time not spin out during his frantic, panic stricken effort to avoid smashing into the BBO.

This is a neat discussion largely because nearly all people on all sides of the debate here are really correct, even though some of the points seem to contradict each other

About driver vs ABS:

First of all a racing ABS system has a lot higher performance than a road ABS. The frequencies at which measurements and adjustments are made are simply higher and the latencies lower.

And secondly the main advantage of a racing car with ABS compared to a racing car without is that the brakes can be applied unevenly between left and right. This makes trail braking so much easier and more effective. When the early '90s DTM cars started using ABS the drivers very soon found out that there is no way they could brake as deep into corners and ultimately be as fast with just their brain and their foot as they could with ABS.

Today there is are fortunately very few racing series left that allow ABS, I think Porsche Carrera Cup got rid of it with their newest car which leaves perhaps VW Polo cup and things like that.

ABS (and TC) just take away too much of the skill. Letting the driver control left/right distribution is another matter and IIRC it was what McLaren was trying to do with their forth pedal system that got banned after winning one Grand Prix a few years ago.
todd you dont necessarily have to give up perfect brake balance to make use of locking up either the fronts or the rears

the trick is left foot braking and its an old rally technique
by keeping the right foot on the gas pedal you decrease the overall braking torque on the driven wheels and can use the brakepedal to only lock the undriven wheels

the real greatness of this technique lies in the genral behaviour of fwd and rwd cars mainly when entering corners to fast (which you do a lot in rallying)
generally an fwd will tend to understeer and an rwd will tend to oversteer in such a case
obviously left foot braking will lock the rear wheels in an fwd which is basically a faster way to pull the handbrake than by moving your hand all the way down inducing oversteer to counter the understeer and vice versa for an rwd


Quote from axus :True story:
"I had an accident on the highway the other day. A car cut across me so I broke hard and I felt the pedal pulsate so I thought the brakes are broken. I just lifted off the pedal and crashed. "

allegedly true story:
senna came back to the pits testdriving a w201 because the brakepedal was strangely broken and pulsating
J.B. and Shotglass. Excellent points on all ends
left foot braking with the throttle applied is available as a directional control technique even with the brakes set to 'normal' levels. I think it's much more likely the 'friend' originally in question was just wrong
Todd, after posts that like that I really wish you had been my driving instructor. Great stuff, and thanks.
The Answer
Hi this is my first post on this forums i think but i ave had LFS for like 4-6 months or somthing. just wanna say that locking brakes can be Usfull only......ONLY.....if you REALLY wanna get outa the way.....lets say at a Corner...2-3 cars totehter 1 is you 1 car has hit you the WRONG way to the Corner so the COrner is Turning left <<< and now your car is at an angle like this / you are at the wong angle....if it is a Rear wheel drive car...this can be rescued EVEN on a track. Lock the front brakes apply half Thottle...(this is assuming you have your Differentional setup correctly) then your Rear Right wheel WILL turn faster then your left...this added with minimal grip on the front Tires due it locking (at this point i'll explain that the reason why there is no grip its becuase as u lock the breaks temperatures are quite extreme and so on race wheels the rubber that is in contact melts leaving literally a Liquid on the Surface....and this amounts to what is Wet rubber on wet rubber...= no grip. this is why when people slow down fo ran emergency stop (profesionals) they wriggle the car left o right as not to let the Residue left by front tires affect the rear :-) ) anyhoo too now your car is bginning to pull back to the Left becuase of the locked wheels are the front. your rear wheel should NEVER lock under ANY circumstanced...dont wheels MABEY but still. if u slam your breaks the wheel SHOULD lock...simple as that. but i now point out that you cant THINK about this manouver (Spelling?) u just have to do it...if u gotta think...your having a nice meeting with the wall. IF you guys really want i could attempt to make a replay Showing this Technique. it is very usfull i ahve used it a few times but only in certain Circum stances..thanks for reasing this and i hope it has well...kinda opened your eye to "Locking CAN be usfull". but i do not remove from the fact this can serioulsy damage your Tires and will without a doubt slow u down in the long run...but what better....skyrocketing your Tire heat to finish the race? or just being a good little piggy and rolling over to die? heh your choice.....thanks again

Regards
Titanium
a.k.a Kyle
Ok. Don't flame me for this. I mean I tried. I really did. I even doubled back and reread some parts. I even read it backwards and with a mirror. I phoned up my 12 year old nephew and asked him and even he couldn't understand it. I took my glasses off. I put them back on again. I got a glass of water and even cleaned the screen.

But none of it worked.

None of it could make me understand any of what was written in that last post.

Mate. No offense but learn to write the queens english. It will definatly help in the understanding.

Funnybear.
A.K.A. English speaking.
Quote from XCNuse :


heres what happens when you lock up a motogp front brake lol (obviously this isn't good)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... mp;search=locked%20brakes

That
wasnt a good thing to show tbh, that was a fairly bad acident and I was saddend to know ol gibbers went down when i watched this when it was live.
I wihs not to relive it
Titanium, none of what you appear to be suggesting relies on having strong enough brakes to lock the wheels in a straight line though... which was the original point I think
any car, without ABS, should surely be able to lock its wheels in a straight line, or I would be worried about how good my brakes would be ....
you may not be aware, but we're talking about the game, "live for speed" here
And in regards to locking your wheels in LFS. I still see no need to at any point of racing. Any benefit you gain from it (If there is any, which is still debatable) would be completly outstripped by the damage you do to your tyres. I have always been taught that locked wheels is a bad thing. I don't rally, which is the only place that I can see locking (rears) working in the cars favour. In lfs, in normal racing conditions on a normal race track locking any tyre is just bad. Don't do it. It's very naughty.
Hey funnny bear, sorry for the appauling grammar heh, was quite late when i typed that. i hope you got the jist of it. i just read over my own post and to be honest i'm not surprised you thought i was talking shite. just too late and was typing too fast. i'm also dyslexic which dont help any so i apologise again for garble. lifes a bitch thanks for trying
Lol. Well at least you are gentlemanly enough not to rip into me for degrading your english skills. I understood the last post just fine. . .

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