The online racing simulator
Spinoff : DirectX and Windows version discussion
(291 posts, started )
Quote from DANIEL-CRO :I meant to quote only last line.
What exactly do you mean by taskbar?

In Windows XP you had the "Quick launch bar", and then, separated the "Taskbar". In Windows 7 that is just one thing, so you got your links, but when you execute that program it doesn't duplicate the icon.

So yes, he meant "Taskbar" and he is totaly right about what he is saying.
Quote from tristancliffe :Two best things about Windows 7:
Typing program names on the start menu to launch them.

I Hate the type into the search box to launch a program feature, on Linux as well. Terrible. Instead, I pinned my most frequently opened programs at the top of the start menu, and the automatic recently used ones below it. Perfect.
Attached images
win-startmenu.png
I have the programs I use every day on the taskbar.
I have commonly used, but not quite as often, on the start menu.
For not that commonly used, they live in the recently used section. That's where I find notepad, or Adobe Acrobat etc.
For one-offs I use the typing thing - Computer Management or Device Manager etc.
Could a mod 'spin-off' all non-3D test patch posts please? Assuming that I'm right when i say I'm speaking on behalf of the test patch testers that it is getting increasingly harder to follow and respond to related 3D posts that are being cluttered with mostly crap.
XP support is here to stay for the time being thankfully. If you wish to share opinions about it, a different thread would be the place for it. I may have a go myself in there, but it's hard to type neck-deep in shit :goodvibes
You are right. I'll do that, will take a few mins...
Hey, let's forget about that directX sh... and move to opengl! Let's build a native linux version Hope that dreaming is allowed on this forum :sleep2:
Right after I get a native Mac version
Quote from Dajmin :Right after I get a native Mac version

If only, if only. OpenGL seems like a good idea all around at this point. You decouple yourself from Micrsoft's upgrade cycle and you can lunch the game on Linux (SteamOS), Mac OSX, and Windows all at the same time. That in turns brings up your market share, you'll be one of the first true racing games to be cross platform that people really want to play.
Quote from Dygear :If only, if only. OpenGL seems like a good idea all around at this point. You decouple yourself from Micrsoft's upgrade cycle and you can lunch the game on Linux (SteamOS), Mac OSX, and Windows all at the same time. That in turns brings up your market share, you'll be one of the first true racing games to be cross platform that people really want to play.

That said, at this point LFS is basically cross platform as it is. Because the code base is fairly reserved and only uses older technologies, WINE support for LFS is unreal.
Quote from dawesdust_12 :That said, at this point LFS is basically cross platform as it is. Because the code base is fairly reserved and only uses older technologies, WINE support for LFS is unreal.

Yes I know - and I appreciate that - and Scawen's conservatism (is this english ?!?) - very much... there are really more urgent things on the LFS Todo list than a revolution of the graphics engine :-)
Quote from NeverEatYellowSnow :Yes I know - and I appreciate that - and Scawen's conservatism (is this english ?!?) - very much... there are really more urgent things on the LFS Todo list than a revolution of the graphics engine :-)

One can dream right?
of course dreaming is always allowed :sleep2:
Scawen, there is a tool called Rufus which can be very useful when installing windows XP. a lot of newer computers don't use IDE anymore for the DVD drive so the installation may fail looking for a SCSI driver.

Rufus uses your existing XP installation media to create a bootable USB stick that can get the installation done.

the web site is at http://rufus.akeo.ie/

a blog-type announcement thread with development news and details is here: http://reboot.pro/topic/17902-rufus-v130-has-been-released/

HTH
Quote from Yisc[NL] :Because you can't get things to work, Windows 7 is crap?

right after installing windows 7, i downloaded process explorer and noticed the OS was performing about 30,000 operations per second at idle.

most of these were registry enumeration/open/read/close cycles and many were related with windows management instrumentation which is supposedly meant for administrators to manage a collection of machines in an office or whatever.

while attacking this problem, some of the things i disabled were pretty annoying, like at pre-programmed times a survey will pop up asking you questions on behalf of Microsoft.

after a few weeks of research and disabling many things the number of operations per second at idle was less than 100. i was satisfied with it then until after the recent windows update problems.

my windows 7 always wants to do an automatic update but fails. all steps Microsoft suggests to correct this fail. i was at a friend's house a few days ago and her windows 7 laptop also has an chronic automatic update failure.

imho windows 7 isn't crap, but it is only a minor incremental change to windows XP and i think this tactic of revving software with imperceptible mostly cosmetic changes is crap. like for example the various file-incompatible Micosoft Office updates like 95, 98 etc.

i will say in Microsoft's defense that the apparent misery they put programmers through is through incompetence rather than malice. the programmers are capable enough but the mega-corporation culture unfortunately works against them in many cases
Quote from CarlLefrancois :
while attacking this problem, some of the things i disabled were pretty annoying, like at pre-programmed times a survey will pop up asking you questions on behalf of Microsoft.

I'm wondering what version of Windows you installed. I've had Win7 installed on my Macbook Pro for a long time, I've never seen anything like what you've described. Win 7 runs pretty smoothly for me. Not as nice as OS X, but I can't really play Assetto Corsa or LFS (with 900 deg) in OS X.

The copy I have is legit copy ordered 4~ years ago from Newegg.
the box says windows home premium 7 sp1 64bit. it's an oem version so that may have something to do with it?

i've disabled the service that controls which items get executed so i can't go back and find the survey launcher. it was buried deep in a (WMI or WBEM?) configuration tool and was set to run something like 10am of the first wednesday at least 6 months after installation. this from memory from almost 2 years ago.
I've had the install of windows that I have currently for at least a year and I've seen nothing of the sort. Other than shitty AMD GPU drivers that refuse to work after sleep mode, I haven't seen anything exceptionally bad from using Windows (other than the shitty UI, but they'll never fix that).
OpenGL is definitely a good thing for the future, as MS seems to be hell-bent on forcing the trainwreck known as Windows 8 and not updating DX for older operating systems anymore.

LFS runs on WINE without much effort if you know what you're doing, but a turn-key solution for Linux/SteamOS/OSX folks would be a much more sophisticated solution.
There's still a lot of issues, mostly with controllers. My g25 does work in OS X + Wine, but there's no FFB and only 240deg rotation.
I've used every version of Windows 9X and NT5 up.

Windows 95 was the new thing back then, but some people complained about the Program Manager being gone "What is this start button crap?!"

Windows 98 added a lot of functionality to 95, heralded as the best Windows evar, despite the frequent system-dooming BSOD's and lockups. Also, most annoyingly, they added "scrolling start menu", which caused some to hate the fact that they can't find all their apps, even though they are just a mouse movement away.

Windows Me.... less said about it the better

From here, Microsoft's Windows NT line became the favored OS, starting with

Windows 2000. Good OS, looks like 98, performs a lot more stable, but HUGE issues with compatability at first. Also, the Start Menu was jacked up again. "Personalized Menus"? Where did all the apps go? Why is only Freecell and Outlook showing? And CTRL+ALT+DELETE to login? What nonsense is this?

Windows XP, the legend. This OS when it came out was universally hated for its "mickey mouse" interface and a Start menu that changed around. Of course, now no one wants to get rid of it, even though before Service Pack 2 and the DEP update it was so vulnerable to malware you could not even update the OS before it would get infected, unless you were behind a very good hardware firewall. Ditto if you ran on dialup or had a internet modem with a direct connection to the web. And don't forget, XP started the trend of Windows Product Activation, the most hated bit of product license control ever designed.

Windows Vista. Almost a repeat of the Me fiasco, Vista provided a MAJOR step up in security from the previous Windows. RAM is no longer filled from bottom up (or top down), but is randomly assigned, which almost eliminates buffer overrun vulnerabilities. DEP is added, which supports the CPU only executing code if its flagged as executable by the file system. UAC, while annoying, can prevent unwanted damage to the system via malware. Superfetch is a first attempt at adding an anticapatory caching system. Aero interface allows truly hardware accelerated desktop. Unfortunately, Vista was not really ready as an OS, and its lackluster performance and problem features showed. Also, people complained about the Start menu being different.

Windows 7, "the new XP". Vista, with everything fixed. Superfetch no longer grinds the system to a halt, UAC no longer asks when changing system settings in a Windows Control Panel, Start menu changed again, the Taskbar button pinning was added, and lots of tweaks, much to the despair of every user of XP or Vista. Windows 7 can perform as well and sometimes better than Windows XP due to optimizations, especially on modern hardware such as AMD FX systems (with a patch) and SSD drives.

Windows 8, the great debate. Windows 8, and its update 8.1, is an attempt at creating a unified OS that bridges the differences of computers, tablets, and phones. The concept makes it easier to port programs across platforms using a unified API with tight rules, and a unified OS that can universally run across all platforms. Once again Start menu has changed, much to the rage and despair of some, and the blessings of others. Windows 8 is highly optimized, and performs as well and sometimes better than Windows 7, though the performance gain is very little.

Notice a pattern yet?

Every damn time Windows updates and even a little tiny change is made in the way the Start menu works, everyone hates it. They hate their life, their computer, their family, and become angry rage face people that hate Microsoft with everything because the Start Menu changed slightly.

Did you know that progman.exe was still available in Windows XP? A Interface that hasn't been used since Windows 3.11? Because someone somewhere that runs a huge business would get in a giant sack of rage if they didn't have old Progman to run their ancient 16-bit program, or they don't want to change.

The most important part of upgrading is to go in with an open mind. Microsoft has been moving the core structure and operation of Windows into a system that is not that all different from other Operating Systems... MacOSX, Linux Desktops, etc., and addressing the increasing need for increased OS security, especially since the Chinese malware market is really taking off now.

If you hate the UAC Prompt in Windows, well, guess what, MacOS has it too. So does Ubuntu. Heck, you'll hate the one in Redhat even more. It asks for the root password every time you want to sneeze.

Your User folder having Documents and Pictures and such being different? That's SOP in POSIX systems, where the User folder is /home/user/, which Windows does as C:\Users\user\.

Windows doesn't allow writing to Program Files without permission? Again, another security feature to prevent malware getting in easily. In POSIX systems, C:\Program Files\ would be /usr/, where programs are installed, and /etc/, where system wide settings are installed, and neither can be written to by users, only the root account via privelege elevation. Again, more belligerently than Windows, you have a UAC-like Prompt in both Mac and Linux OS if you want to install anything into the system or change system settings.

Technically, your program is only supposed to write to the User folder if you are not elevated. In Windows, that's C:\Users\user\AppData\[Local or Roaming]\ (%APPDATA%), which allows different settings and data per login. In Linux, its a bit messier, but programs usually save user data and settings in a hidden (. is hidden in POSIX) folder under /home/user/.config/program/ or /home/user/.program/, accessible with ~ (user's home folder shortcut). This is to prevent malware from getting free reign of the system right from the get go. The focus of malware now is finding ways to get past elevation (or gaining root in Linux and Mac), and not simply taking advantage of the completely unsecure environment that older OS, such as Windows XP has (a limited functionality system file protection that is easily defeated, no protection when running as Administrator account type, no under the hood hacking prevention measures other than DEP and NTFS file security).
Quote from Impreza WRX :Did you know that progman.exe was still available in Windows XP? A Interface that hasn't been used since Windows 3.11? Because someone somewhere that runs a huge business would get in a giant sack of rage if they didn't have old Progman to run their ancient 16-bit program, or they don't want to change.

Amusing about that is that in XP SP0 and SP1 it was actually executable and functional. SP2 turned it into a simple stub (to Explorer I think).

Windows definitely has this overreliance on legacy crap. They're just misguided on what legacy to drop. Dropping the Start menu was a bad legacy to ditch. Ditching 20 years of pointless compatibility in the interest of allowing someone to run a 16 year old version of Sim City isn't the best use of resources (and just makes code a cluster****).

Microsoft basically needs to do a "NT2", but actually make it a clean break. They never will, but they need to actually ditch the gigantic heap of legacy and look towards the future. Apple has done that several times (and migrated users quite gracefully and only the most stubborn refuse to modernize) and it's excellent. In doing so, they have a stable Unix OS with the ability (and push) towards application sandboxes with access to NOTHING without the users intervention (and explicit permission for an application to access a resource).

Apple never killed OS 9 in a day, but over the last 10 years they have switched from OS 9 to OS X, and PPC to Intel without much issue for most users. The only users who have had issues are ones who rely on 10 year old software for their daily life, which is a bit crazy (and unbelievable) that something wouldn't exist that was better at that point.
MS cannot break legacy compatibility anytime soon even though I'm convined they actually wish they could. There is a huge amount of corporate applications that still rely on legacy WinAPI and these applications usually cannot be easily fixed. There are applications out there whose lifecycle is "Developed by A which was a branch of B, B was taken over by C, C went bankrupt and sold to pieces so the original app is now owned by D." There is a good chance that by the time D owns the app, it's source has become a hardly maintainable mess nobody from the D company actually understands.

Windows division of MS makes money by selling new version of Windows. If you take in account how hard if was for MS to make people move away from XP, you can probably imagine that convincing people to switch to a Windows version with limited (or none) support for legacy apps would be next to impossible.

Apple can do whatever they want because their userbase is much smaller and there aren't many huge industries that rely on MacOS.
Quote from MadCatX :...
Apple can do whatever they want because their userbase is much smaller and there aren't many huge industries that rely on MacOS.

Apple sells entire solutions. Its a lot easier to keep the money flowing on a forced upgrade path. Microsoft has several years (3-5) between milestone changes of Windows, and backwards compatibility hardware-wise to a great degree. MacOS? Nope. Every generation of Apple device brings about changes that can't be backported to older hardware, not easily, and with a yearly release cycle, you have to spend a ton of money to keep things rolling.

Have you tried GNOME3 or Ubuntu's Unity interface? It's the same storm of grief and rage from users of the most popular desktop and distro of Linux, but a year before Windows 8 came along. Also, MacOSX has a similar launching panel now, but it feels stiched-in like an afterthought. The end of the Start menu will still happen, and many nay sayers have not even tried to actually use the new menu design and set it up in a way that would be efficient for them. They try it for 5 minutes, go "WHAR IS MENU?!! >:{" and give up with a table flip, instead of looking at the simple instructions, which I might point out grace a whole quarter of the screen the first time you get there in Windows 8.1, with a HUGE ASS arrow pointing to the hot corner with TITANIC text telling you in just a few words what that does. A lot of people don't want to learn a small change.
Quote from dawesdust_12 :Microsoft basically needs to do a "NT2", but actually make it a clean break. They never will, but they need to actually ditch the gigantic heap of legacy and look towards the future.

Well, NT was kinda like the hybrid of OS/2 and Win32. In fact, NT was built to be 32bit from the ground up, they kinda just bolted on Win16 just to keep everything running in the background. "Hey look, you can upgrade to this, and still use your old applications! When you want to move forward, the infrastructure will be there to support you." Some of OS/2 and some of NT came from Steve Jobs, because they licensed some tech from NeXTSTEP.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :Apple never killed OS 9 in a day, but over the last 10 years they have switched from OS 9 to OS X, and PPC to Intel without much issue for most users.

And OS 9 was kinda killed in a day, because when Apple bought out NeXT, they pretty much knew that they where buying it because they wanted a new OS, and they wanted Steve back and this one company had both.

And Intel to PPC happend in the back room over many, many years because Macs have always been compatible with x86, and PPC, and ARM. iOS is OSX distilled and boiled down, and compiled for ARM chips.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :The only users who have had issues are ones who rely on 10 year old software for their daily life, which is a bit crazy (and unbelievable) that something wouldn't exist that was better at that point.

Big Corporations are doing that every day, I still still "Patient Care Registration" running DOS emulators! It's INSANE, but that's because they spend money in the wrong areas.
Quote from Dygear :It's INSANE, but that's because they spend money in the wrong areas.

Coke and hookers ain't cheap!


Spinoff : DirectX and Windows version discussion
(291 posts, started )
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