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Spinoff : DirectX and Windows version discussion
(291 posts, started )
Quote from Scawen :
All I want to hear from is a graphics programmer, telling me how to run a debug version of DX8 or DX9 in Windows 7.

Maybe you allready know this but it could be what you need to do
run Directx Control Panel
mine is located here (Windows 7 pro):
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft DirectX SDK (June 2010)\Utilities\bin\x86\dxcpl.exe

goto tab called "Direct3D 9" and select "Use Debug Version of Dirct3D 9" and then Apply



I havent been able to test if not doing this would keep debug builds from executing.
Quote from Scawen :
EDIT : Actually I might just reinstall XP. While XP computers must still be supported, DX9 is the highest possible version of Direct X that can be supported, because DX10 and DX11 do not run on XP. But DX9 cannot be run in debug mode on later versions of Windows, so I am forced to revert to XP.

You can't run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.
Quote from PeterN :So I'm running Windows 7, and I just downloaded and installed the DirectX SDK (http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=6812) and enabled the debug version of Direct3D 9.

LFS fails to start with the combination of d3d8 to d3d9 wrapper and softth d3d9.dll in place, when the debug version is selected, so it seems enabling this option does have some effect in Windows 7. I don't actually have a debugger installed to see what is actually happening.

I found a reference to being unable to debug Direct3D here http://snaptip.com/xzftciqxlw/ ... ebug-version-of-directx-9 but maybe that refers only to Windows 8?

Kegetys pointed me to DebugView (http://technet.microsoft.com/e ... ysinternals/bb896647.aspx). After running this, there are Direct3D debug messages appearing.

Quote from hetner :Maybe you allready know this but it could be what you need to do
run Directx Control Panel
mine is located here (Windows 7 pro):
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft DirectX SDK (June 2010)\Utilities\bin\x86\dxcpl.exe

goto tab called "Direct3D 9" and select "Use Debug Version of Dirct3D 9" and then Apply



I havent been able to test if not doing this would keep debug builds from executing.

I have installed that same DXSDK_Jun10.exe and the same control panel is available to me. However, selecting "Use Debug Version of Direct3D 9" has no effect. No messages appear in VC6 (that normally receives debug messages) at all. That setting doesn't "stick" either. As soon as you exit the DirectX Properties thing and start it again, you see that "Use Retail Version of Direct3D 9" has been re-selected.

EDIT : Seems to be the same as this person :
http://stackoverflow.com/quest ... rect3d-runtime-wont-stick
Quote from Scawen :I have installed that same DXSDK_Jun10.exe and the same control panel is available to me. However, selecting "Use Debug Version of Direct3D 9" has no effect. No messages appear in VC6 (that normally receives debug messages) at all. That setting doesn't "stick" either. As soon as you exit the DirectX Properties thing and start it again, you see that "Use Retail Version of Direct3D 9" has been re-selected.

Hmm, does it give you the UAC prompt when started? If not you could try running it as Administrator. Also there are two versions, I've only touched the x86 version as LFS isn't 64 bit.

I just tested the x64 version and indeed the settings don't stick there, whether run as Administrator or not!

EDIT: Further testing, seems to be that Direct3D 9 debugging works, but Direct3D 8 is not affected. I am seeing messages because I have the d3d8 to d3d9 wrapper in place for softth...
Yes, the AUC thing appears, whether I run as administrator or not. And in each case the settings don't stick, or have any apparent effect. Normally (on XP) when selecting the debug version, plenty of messages come out when LFS starts up and then appear in the message log window in VC6 (even if there are no errors). But I don't get any of those messages. That is my whole problem, it'll be hard to convert to DX9 without the help of the debug messages pointing out every time I make an error.

I don't have a real problem reverting to XP, I'm thinking I should just get another SSD drive and plug it in, install XP on that. Keeping the Win7 one ready to plug in if I need to have a look at Win7 any time.

The other problem with Win7 is the removal of the ability to select dual monitor as a full screen option, using a single device. That was possible in XP and not since. The nvidia multiple monitor thing is 3 screen only. But I had decided not to worry about this. The debug thing is a show stopper though.
By the way, I tried DebugView as well, just in case somehow VC6 doesn't receive debugging messages. Also no messages appear in there when I run the debug version of LFS with "Use Debug Version..." selected. I don't think that selection is having any effect on my computer at all.

Debug View only displays two messages : "Unloading DLL" and "C:\Windows\something irrelevant" - none of the normal D3D debug output.
Quote from PeterN :EDIT: Further testing, seems to be that Direct3D 9 debugging works, but Direct3D 8 is not affected. I am seeing messages because I have the d3d8 to d3d9 wrapper in place for softth...

Thanks, at least you are helping me to think I haven't gone nuts!

Probably is best to just install XP on a new disc, set it up well and enjoy it for a couple more years while I can. I don't run other games so don't need a later OS, as long as I can get emails, browse the web and compile LFS.
Or go with DX9 sooner rather than later, where debugging will work in Win 7 ;-)
Maybe I need to try an experiment with that. Can I confirm what you are saying is this :

The Direct X Control Panel setting, although it does not stay switched on, does affect DX9, but not DX8?

In that case, when is it that it reverts to the Release version? Is it as soon as you close the DX Control Panel? Or next time it is restarted?
omg, does this even matter? LFS can run on a toaster oven and look fine. Let's get rolling with the tyre physics. Actually no one cares about the tyre physics we just want new tracks.
For me, the settings correctly stay switched on when running the 32-bit control panel located under Utilities\bin\x86\dxcpl.exe, quitting and reloading keeps settings as I left them.

Changing the Direct3D 9 settings with the 64-bit x64\dxcpl.exe has no effect and behaves as you described. Settings on the other tabs do persist though with this version.

I have just checked with regedit, and the 64-bit version does actually set the appropriate registry entries but seems to not to be able to read them. The settings are stored in HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Direct3D. LoadDebugRuntime should be a DWORD set to 1. As before, this affects d3d9 but not d3d8.
I also found this quote from http://stackoverflow.com/quest ... was-disabled-on-windows-8, though it's also spread elsewhere.

"The Direct3D 9 Developer Runtime (aka D3D9D.DLL) in the legacy DirectX SDK (June 2010) is not compatible with Windows 8. In fact, the entire Developer Runtime in the legacy DirectX SDK (June 2010) is not compatible with Windows 8 or with Windows 7 SP1 with KB 2370838 installed"

Only problem is KB 2370838 doesn't seem to exist except for the mention in this context, so possibly it's a typo.

EDIT: I was right, it's actually 2670838: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2670838
EDIT 2: And I think that's a red herring because I do have this patch installed anyway. Maybe that patch breaks the x64 panel.
Thanks for your posts and information. I haven't done any tests so far.

I don't know if that MS patch is installed. I have been allowing Windows update to get all the updates it suggests (although they are a lot larger and more frequent that I would consider reasonable).

The version of the DX Control Panel I have been running is the \x86 one, and that one's settings do not stick. I don't have the x64 version, I guess because I have 32 bit Windows 7.
Quote from Bmxtwins :omg, does this even matter? LFS can run on a toaster oven and look fine. Let's get rolling with the tyre physics. Actually no one cares about the tyre physics we just want new tracks.

You are very far from understanding what is a genuine problem, so better stay out of it.
#65 - kdo
Quote from Bmxtwins :omg, does this even matter? LFS can run on a toaster oven and look fine. Let's get rolling with the tyre physics. Actually no one cares about the tyre physics we just want new tracks.

i actually want to see the new tyres phisics
According to this post the August 2007 DirectX SDK was the last one to include Direct3D8.

I haven't had time to verify that yet, but if it's true then it's probably impossible to debug D3D8 in Win 7 (which came out 2 years later than that SDK version).
Quote from Scawen :You are very far from understanding what is a genuine problem, so better stay out of it.

Well, LFS runs on my computer with windows 7 without issues. That's all I know. That's all I care.
Thanks again everyone.

I have ordered a new hard drive so I can install XP on it and just go with that.

It's like a full time battle with Windows 7. Even installing VC6 was quite troublesome. I won't waste time describing it, but Windows 7 is generally unhappy when you try to use old stuff. It's pretty clear that MS want everyone to move onto the new system. I can understand that and it is fine for game developers who make "version 1" of their game and then "version 2" which is a completely different product that you pay for again. In our case, where we want to update our existing customers, and there are a significant number of them on an older and perfectly good operating system, microsoft's tactics feel like sort of bullying and pushing us around, whether they intended that or not.

My point is, it's really quite hard developing a product suitable for XP when I'm on Windows 7, which I suspect is mostly deliberate by MS. Deliberate or not, it's difficult so I'm reinstalling the OS which supports what I am trying to do, which is develop LFS suitable for XP. I understand that this will not last forever, and for now I'm keeping my Windows 7 drive available.

On a personal level I have found Windows 7 quite frustrating. It's really bizarre always telling me I can't do things because I don't have permission and so on, although guess what, it's MY computer! Also ridiculous things like every time you do a search, it says "No items match your search." "Search again in Libraries (WTF?) Homegroup (WTF?) Computer (OBVIOUSLY THAT'S WHAT I WANTED FFS!) Custom... (WTF?) Internet (I WOULD HAVE USED FIREFOX FOR THIS!)".

I'm not standing in the way of technology, I just want a computer that is easy to use, when one click or two will get me what I want, not reading half an essay on the screen and having to decipher all sorts of useless information. It's just not for me, and I'm happy to go back to XP and see how long that lasts for me.
Quote from Bmxtwins :Well, LFS runs on my computer with windows 7 without issues. That's all I know. That's all I care.

That great but do you also develop LFS or any other game? You seem to miss the point of the current discussion. (You are not the only one).

Quote from Scawen :It's really bizarre always telling me I can't do things because I don't have permission and so on, although guess what, it's MY computer!

Thats why I turned of UAC like, I don't know, five years ago? Never looked back.
Quote from Scawen : It's really bizarre always telling me I can't do things because I don't have permission and so on, although guess what, it's MY computer!

as cargame.nl, I also turned off UAC more than 4 years ago and never had anymore problem with it
OK, I didn't see any option for that. I also kind of assumed that the reason I should use Windows 7 is to get used to that kind of thing, so that I can understand how LFS runs in the more modern environment. I didn't realise that backwards compatibility was reduced for developers.

I wonder what's really left when you switch off the UAC and choose settings that make it a bit more like XP. Apart from a few changes in the way the user interface works, it doesn't really seem to have many genuine improvements over XP at all. I just haven't seen one thing that has made me really impressed. You know, those tiny little user interface bonuses and that smoother looking clock could have just been a couple of days work and a patch for XP. I'm simply not impressed at all by the result of a decade of development. Probably because XP worked pretty well already.
Two best things about Windows 7:
Typing program names on the start menu to launch them.
Having very frequently used programs on the taskbar itself.
Quote from tristancliffe :
Having very frequently used programs on the start menu(?) itself.

XP can also do that.

What I like very much is when you drag window to left/right its resized to half of screen, also weather gadget
and ofcourse start menu search (and that you can start typing before its even opened, unlike Win8)
XP can't do the typing thing OR the taskbar thing. And yes, I meant taskbar. That's why I wrote taskbar.
I meant to quote only last line.
What exactly do you mean by taskbar?

Spinoff : DirectX and Windows version discussion
(291 posts, started )
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