The online racing simulator
Project Improve NDR
(For a TL;DR version scroll all the way to the bottom of this post :nod

Okay so we here at NDR are coming closer to our 4th complete year of existence (jesus christ its been that long ? :schwitz and I feel it's high time to sort some stuff out to make things easier on myself, and everyone else.

I can tell you know, to expect but don't be frightened if there's a bit more downtime than usual here over the next few months. Usually the only big downtime is in the spring, but there may be one here. It's partly down to the current state of LFS, and the current state of NDR.

What I'm looking for here is a working discussion of what you feel NDR needs, in any respect. Here is a list of what is intended to be worked on; your input and additional ideas are welcomed. Other threads may be spun off from this one if necessary.
  • NDR initially started to be a joint governing body and racing team. This was part of the reason that the iCON + NDR merger happened. However, it's become glaringly apparent that there cannot or will not be any racing arm to NDR, so as such, does NDR really need to be a "Team" or more should it be an "Organization". It's likely that we'll change to an organization and act as such. This would change how "membership in NDR" would flow. No longer would anyone need to have an NDR, except perhaps a few "Core NDR Members"
  • Sporting Code + Series Rulebooks will be rearranged. Procedures such as Safety Cars, red flags and similar that are shared across series will be in the Sporting Code, and the series rulebook will simply contain things that can only be specific to that series, as well as any modifications/non-applicible references to the Sporting Code
  • This idea had been discussed during the middle of the summer. It's incredibly hard to have people doing active race administration AND Stewarding roles at the same time. This is why lately you've seen us waiting until after the race to review any protests, and not initiate much. The plan will be to soon have a "team" of "Race Stewards" - those we trust to review incidents impartially and be a working group to ensure consistent rule enforcement. This would go hand-in-hand with the "organization" mode of NDR, meaning that stewards can maintain their racing team membership, but also be an "administrative" member of NDR, and participate on the stewarding panel.
  • Expansion into other software titles. rFactor, netkar Pro, iRacing, what have you. The only one semi-active is I am working to help JJ Wang (lizardfolk) and Thilo start a version of LFSCART in rFactor, but with some things in the last weeks I've stalled a bit, but will get on with that soon.
Again, NDR will continue to run leagues until we're the last people left in this place - We'll turn the lights out. That is unless life kills us all first.

We'd like your ideas on which of our assortment of leagues (listed below) you think should never take an extended hiatus (aka longer than a regular off-season), those you think could run with a small off-season (two seasons a year, for instance), or series you think should be made dormant or kept dormant until such time LFS community returns to at or near its "former glory"

We thank you in advance for your input - it'll be considered. Expect this to be a slow process for everything, but of course some things quicker than others.

Oh and if you think this is all overthink and not necessary and being too hard on ourselves, tell us that too

List of NDR Sanctioned Leagues and their status:
LFS Beginner's Cup - Dormant
NDR Challenge (older brother more or less to LFSBC) - Dormant to Dead
Grand Touring Amateur League - Off-Season (currently under internal consideration for a brief dormancy period)
LFSCART - Final processing of Season 2011
LFSCART Light - Dormant
MiniFBM - Offseason, likely to return late Oct 2011
GT2 World Series - Active Season 2011
TBO Challenge - Dormant
Kyoto 250 & 500 - Off-season
Special events - Temporary dormancy


TL;DR: If you skipped all that, you probably actually should read it. Simply put, we're trying to improve NDR and the above is explaining things. But if you want to throw in a suggestion, do it anyway and we'll tell you off (politely) if it's wrong or out of touch with what we're doing, or compliment you for knowing what we want to do without reading us say it
Quote from dekojester :
List of NDR Sanctioned Leagues and their status:
LFS Beginner's Cup - Kill, no beginners to LFS anymore.
NDR Challenge (older brother more or less to LFSBC) - Kill.
Grand Touring Amateur League - Off-Season (currently under internal consideration for a brief dormancy period) - Kill until S3.
LFSCART - Final processing of Season 2011 - Keep, only of its kind.
LFSCART Light - Dormant - Ehh, nothing wrong with it tbh.
MiniFBM - Offseason, likely to return late Oct 2011 - Keep.
GT2 World Series - Active Season 2011 - Good step before IGTC, keep.
TBO Challenge - Dormant - Scratch for a whole road car series (endu)
Kyoto 250 & 500 - Off-season - Get rid of and I chop balls off.
Special events - Temporary dormancy - Let "helpers" run some.

Bold are my answers. Also.


I'd help with whatever. I have a million league ideas and have offered them many times but it's just too busy for you or whoever. Getting a group together would be nice. I read the post but didn't comprehend it enough to comment just yet.

LFS leagues just need to make sure not to step on each other's toes. We are awaiting a patch that seems like it may never come. But the only way to stay alive during it is to keep bringing new leagues. There's many leagues that have never been in LFS.

I'd race nearly anything as long as it is different. Put a BTCC style series on rally tracks with ballast etc and I'll do it just because it is new and fun and near impossible to do on any other sim.

So whatever re-organizing you do, just don't come back when the "same old stuff" and we will be fine. And if you do, I will call you iRacing employees until you are in a nut house.
#3 - Hahmo
Quote :List of NDR Sanctioned Leagues and their status:
LFS Beginner's Cup - No.
NDR Challenge (older brother more or less to LFSBC) - No.
Grand Touring Amateur League - Off-Season (currently under internal consideration for a brief dormancy period) - I'd like to have it again this year.
LFSCART - Final processing of Season 2011 - New season; yes
LFSCART Light - Dormant - New season; yes
MiniFBM - Offseason, likely to return late Oct 2011 - Uhm.. why not
GT2 World Series - Active Season 2011 - yes
TBO Challenge - Dormant - Don't mind it
Kyoto 250 & 500 - Off-season - yes
Special events - Temporary dormancy - yes

I'll do it the same way as Phil, but won't really give any comments..
Quote :LFS Beginner's Cup No more beginners in LFS these days
NDR Challenge (older brother more or less to LFSBC) I'm affraid no interrest.
Grand Touring Amateur League Dunno, GT2WS seems to be the new GTAL anyway, except ineX/3id are allowed. GTAL stopped being really "amateur" after season 1, which wasn't necessary a bad thing, as that bold "no IGTC/MoE" rule was way too restrictive. Anyway, can't really see the point of running both of those two very similar leagues
LFSCART Top NDR league more or less, should stay. Maybe with slightly shorter races? Just IMO.
LFSCART Light Dunno once again, first season was fun, second was a bit messy. Not hard to find FOX racing these days, so maybe not super necessary
MiniFBM Nice to see it returning
GT2 World Series See GTAL
TBO Challenge It was great fun, would be nice to see it returning one day, especially since road car racing is so much hard to find on LFS these days. Then was also have the good old road car endu idea, but is there enough interrest to try and pull something?
Kyoto 250 & 500 Top NDR events, should stay, although they require lots of work and create lots of bitching in current format
Special events Dunno, always fun, plus they don't need to require so much work.

Not really a fan of the BTCC race format(simracing wise), it's fun with the right people, but it can easily turn into a crashfest.

On other sims: I personally "own" iR, RBR, netkar, rF. Not playing the latter two at the moment anyway.

To be honest I'm a bit sceptic on non-LFS leagues.
  • rF, can't see the interrest, there already are shitloads of leagues. IIRC Ori Antika(?) is involved in an rF CART league too, and I'm sure there must be a few others around too.
  • iR seems to be a sim played by a good part of the NDR-fanbase, but hosted racing is still very restrictive format wise currently; this means you cannot really propose anything dramatically different from the official series.
  • netkar. We all know how great it is physics wise, etc. But no one's really playing it because of the sucky netcode and its unstable nature.
  • What about RBR? Could be fun. Just an idea.
Quote from GreyBull [CHA] :Not really a fan of the BTCC race format(simracing wise), it's fun with the right people, but it can easily turn into a crashfest.

I blamed the FXR really (if you are referring to iTCC). Fast, AWD, Downforce, stuck like glue due to restriction. Killed the close racing that it should be. Made passing nearly a hazard more than anything.

Quote :To be honest I'm a bit sceptic on non-LFS leagues.

True that. Should honestly only worry about that if enough interest.
Quote :rF, can't see the interrest, there already are shitloads of leagues. IIRC Ori Antika(?) is involved in an rF CART league too, and I'm sure there must be a few others around too.

rF2 is something to wait for in that department.

Quote :iR seems to be a sim played by a good part of the NDR-fanbase, but hosted racing is still very restrictive format wise currently; this means you cannot really propose anything dramatically different from the official series.

Organize it, get mainly LFS people at first, then advertise it, broadcasts whatever, and get as many as possible. Not that hard really, totally possible and talked about in TS quite a bit.

Quote :netkar. We all know how great it is physics wise, etc. But no one's really playing it because of the sucky netcode and its unstable nature.

New update didn't fix it enough?

Quote :What about RBR? Could be fun. Just an idea.

Easy to run, I'd even hop in one.
-
(xtraction) DELETED by xtraction : :)
List of NDR Sanctioned Leagues and their status:
LFS Beginner's Cup - no
NDR Challenge (older brother more or less to LFSBC) - no
Grand Touring Amateur League - Definatly keep
LFSCART - Keep
LFSCART Light - Keep
MiniFBM - Keep
GT2 World Series - Keep (mini version of MoE except without GT1)
TBO Challenge - Keep (as phil stated, endu)
Kyoto 250 & 500 - Awsome events! keep
Special events - Keep summer & christmas
Quote from PMD9409 :I blamed the FXR really (if you are referring to iTCC). Fast, AWD, Downforce, stuck like glue due to restriction. Killed the close racing that it should be. Made passing nearly a hazard more than anything.

True.

Quote from PMD9409 :New update didn't fix it enough?

No idea, haven't tested it yet.
I agree with Yann on the GT2 situation. I'd rather see the GT2WS go to 2 splits a race (if the field ever made it that high), instead of having 2 series that take up the entire year by themselves.

Multiple GTR series covering the whole year isn't necessarily a bad thing, but don't make them both endurance. Make one FIA GT1 style or something.

Something as simple as:

Summer/Autumn
GT2WS (running with IGTC)
LFSCART (including Light)
Touring cars (TBO or nGT?)

Winter/Spring
FIA GT or similar
MiniFBM or something else
Road car endurance

That simplicity just covers nearly everything. Plus its organized.
Quote from PMD9409 :I'd rather see the GT2WS go to 2 splits a race (if the field ever made it that high), instead of having 2 series that take up the entire year by themselves.

Or perhaps two classes - "experienced" and "amateur" - all running GT2s with the same restrictions, but running for different championships(with also an overall championship, of course).
Quote from xtraction :List of NDR Sanctioned Leagues and their status:
LFS Beginner's Cup - no
NDR Challenge (older brother more or less to LFSBC) - no
Grand Touring Amateur League - Definatly keep
LFSCART - Keep
LFSCART Light - Keep
MiniFBM - Keep
GT2 World Series - Keep (mini version of MoE except without GT1)
TBO Challenge - Keep (as phil stated, endu)
Kyoto 250 & 500 - Awsome events! keep
Special events - Keep summer & christmas

^^
GT2 World Series - Keep
Grand Touring Amateur League - Keep
How would you decide who is "amateur" and who is "experienced", Yann? Talking about GTAL, I don't see a major difference between GTAL and GT2WS, IMHO no point to keep two series with the same class racing, as I bet there will be same teams racing in both series. Unless you make it like that: teams in GTAL who are f.e. in TOP 10 after season in standings advances to "higher" GT2WS, and vice versa - teams below TOP 15/20 in GT2WS does a stepback to GTAL. Just my thoughts 'bout it, don't flame if you see no sense.
The guys have said it pretty much above and I have to agree on most of the stuff. But I have an idea for a new league that LFS really misses, instead of some of those that you plan on kicking.

DTM styled league. 1 hour with 500hp GT monsters to test out the real driver skill plus 2 pit stops with pit window and tire change to spice things up. 1 year season with 8-11 races (I'd personally like 10 race season) to make sure that everyone has plenty of time to fight for the title or to achieve their maximum. This has always sounded like the ultimate idea to test driver skill to the maximum when it comes to closed wheel race cars. Remember, GT2 cars are not the option here, as the goal is to test driver skill to the maximum, not make sure you have action every lap. Even with this difficult cars to drive you will still have battles going on for most of the race, especially because of pit stops! This has been the case in eTM, besides just take a look at IGTC. and you don't see anyone, not even you guys restricting FO8 to make sure that there are overtakes going on every lap and races are still very exciting.

I know that every admin group is afraid that they wouldn't have enough driver support, but believe me when i tell you the most of the IGTC/GT2 WS grid would be interested and that's about 50 racers to choose from (if not most, than at least half of us).

Please share your thoughts.
Quote from N I K I :and you don't see anyone, not even you guys restricting FO8 to make sure that there are overtakes going on every lap and races are still very exciting.

IMO, the FO8 is hands down the best (if not one of the best) cars in LFS because it has raw power and requires a driver to use his brain and right foot appropriately. If tyre temps under SCs (NO this will not be a "stop doing SC's argument point please :P) didn't go to below freezing (in relative terms :P) we wouldn't even restrict tyre choices pretty much.
Quote from dekojester :IMO, the FO8 is hands down the best (if not one of the best) cars in LFS because it has raw power and requires a driver to use his brain and right foot appropriately. If tyre temps under SCs (NO this will not be a "stop doing SC's argument point please :P) didn't go to below freezing (in relative terms :P) we wouldn't even restrict tyre choices pretty much.

Now I wouldn't compare open wheel car vs GT (or as some call it high-tech touring) car. But it's exactly my point when it comes to drivers skill, especially FZR you really need patience! I would go as far as making this DTM styled series RWD only (meaning XRR and FZR allowed only, perhaps FZR with small restriction!).
GTAL and GT2WS can be run in same year. Basically GT2WS would be division 1 and GTAL division 2. In such a situation GTAL could be as restrictive as it was in 1st season and anyway they are lot of teams in GTAL that aren't competing in GT2WS because the level is really high !

GTAL enables feeder teams to fight for the win and earn some confident and experience. It enabled lot of driver to improve and become some of the best racer of LFS. Now these drivers are in top teams like dmT, vtiracing, me () in season 1, seb66, tomhah (that was already one of the best in season 1), torpp1s in season 2 and sca-f1, isaacprice, drunk guys, drifter only i nseason 3 and lot of others.

I think there is still enough teams in LFS to make these two leagues, with two cars.
I like Yann's idea of putting both GT2WS and GTAL together.

Resembles GTPro and GTAM, and I don't see a problem with taking a similar approach.

From a ALMS article:
Quote :For 2011, the ACO will rename GT2 to GT Endurance (although the 2009-spec rules will remain in place). GT Endurance will be divided into two sub-classes – GT Endurance PRO (professional category) and GT Endurance AM (for varying skill level of drivers and cars more than one year old).

Niki: Thing about DTM is that it has cars we cannot create in LFS without heavy modification. They are closer to a single seater than a GT car underneath the body.
Quote from MoMo92i :GTAL and GT2WS can be run in same year. Basically GT2WS would be division 1 and GTAL division 2. In such a situation GTAL could be as restrictive as it was in 1st season and anyway they are lot of teams in GTAL that aren't competing in GT2WS because the level is really high !

GTAL enables feeder teams to fight for the win and earn some confident and experience. It enabled lot of driver to improve and become some of the best racer of LFS. Now these drivers are in top teams like dmT, vtiracing, me () in season 1, seb66, tomhah (that was already one of the best in season 1), torpp1s in season 2 and sca-f1, isaacprice, drunk guys, drifter only i nseason 3 and lot of others.

I think there is still enough teams in LFS to make these two leagues, with two cars.

Well, it's a good point and most of guys support it. I'd go and change my opinion. I say keep them both, but add DTM styled league instead of something else then. I don't know maybe this begginers cup and ndr challenge.
Quote from PMD9409 :Niki: Thing about DTM is that it has cars we cannot create in LFS without heavy modification. They are closer to a single seater than a GT car underneath the body.

iTCC car has barely anything to do with BTCC and yet it's still huge success.
You're just afraid that I'd rip your ass.
Quote from N I K I :iTCC car has barely anything to do with BTCC and yet it's still huge success.
You're just afraid that I'd rip your ass.

Yet can't even fill the grid anymore.

Rip mine? Better than me spinning yours.
Quote from PMD9409 :Yet can't even fill the grid anymore.

What do you say, cut iTCC down then and replace it with DTM styled league. No, I'm not really serious about that, but I'm sure we can get 25 guys of which 5-10 could compete for race victories. For Christs sake, we had full Apex Cup grids! And don't you think that finishing for example 7th in this ultra competitive league would mean a lot more than finishing 3rd in some "fun league" or making it to the podium finish in kind of grand prix race compared to rev grid win?

Quote from PMD9409 :Rip mine? Better than me spinning yours.

Damn right it's better, you know spinning someones ass is not allowed, at least not in a car that doesn't have a back seat and still I'd rip your ass so fast that a sexy hood would be enough. ^^
Quote from N I K I :What do you say, cut iTCC down then and replace it with DTM styled league. No, I'm not really serious about that, but I'm sure we can get 25 guys of which 5-10 could compete for race victories. For Christs sake, we had full Apex Cup grids! And don't you think that finishing for example 7th in this ultra competitive league would mean a lot more than finishing 3rd in some "fun league" or making it to the podium finish in kind of grand prix race compared to rev grid win?

Don't mock reverse grids now, they can be fun.

I have no interest in driving in another iTCC season. I was done halfway through last season. DTM format could definately be used, and I wouldn't complain one bit as it is something new.
For the record, the "For Drivers: What do you want?" Poll thread more or less took care of the league ideas wanted, but of course still open to discuss here.

What I was looking for was more things outside of league concepts. Hoping for your input on the ideas presented about the rearrangements of the rulebooks / regs, the NDR structure and the race administration expansion / methoding. Of course if you think it's fine and we should just do those ideas as presented, that probably means we're already doing things right and I'm just a paranoid mofo

Suggestions for things to add to the Sporting Code etc welcome also
For me NDR rules are good and leagues made by NDR are always well organized. Only thing that can be done to improve it for me (adding the streamline you did on 1st post) is an automatic system like what gai-luron did in 2005 for frh events and lfs france league (gcomp system, check http://www.lfsfrance.org/)
I agree with pretty much everything Phil's said, including his list of which leagues to keep and which to kill.

My advice is DO NOT expand into other sims. NDR is one of the few things keeping LFS alive at this point and we don't need any of that focus being taken away by other sims. I think it would weaken NDR, too.

I think your ruleset is quite good (though I want to take a big red pen to the rulebook for all the typos/grammar issues), and I think the way the admin handles disputes, etc, is quite fair and consistent.

In short, keep doing what you're doing, and don't be afraid to ask for help if you need it. I'll be around.
Quote from MoMo92i :For me NDR rules are good and leagues made by NDR are always well organized. Only thing that can be done to improve it for me (adding the streamline you did on 1st post) is an automatic system like what gai-luron did in 2005 for frh events and lfs france league (gcomp system, check http://www.lfsfrance.org/)

You mean an online / automated (more or less) entry / signup system ? That's been something I wish to do, I mucked about some over the summer trying a few things to try to learn PHP / MySQL to make it work, know what I want to do (generally anyway, specifics tbd), but haven't had time yet to really go gung-ho on it yet.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :My advice is DO NOT expand into other sims. NDR is one of the few things keeping LFS alive at this point and we don't need any of that focus being taken away by other sims. I think it would weaken NDR, too.

Well an expansion wouldn't be really done with NDR in its current state, unless it was someone else wishing to do the event under NDR Banner (like this rFactor thing, I basically said that I'd let them use NDR / NDR rules and Thilo, but I won't have hardly any involvement other than yelling at lizardfolk when he mucks up ) I surely wouldn't be involved directly in everything, I'd be in more of an oversight role. Unless of course I was paid 30 grand USD a year or more for this then I'd just do this full time

Quote from DeadWolfBones :I think your ruleset is quite good (though I want to take a big red pen to the rulebook for all the typos/grammar issues), and I think the way the admin handles disputes, etc, is quite fair and consistent.

In short, keep doing what you're doing, and don't be afraid to ask for help if you need it. I'll be around.

When I redo the rulebook, I'll be sure to pay extra attention to the riting n grammer and me'll send a copy your way to proofread too if you like.

And I'm glad to hear people think we're actually consistent. We try, and of course there are plenty who challenge the fairness / consistency and whinge to no end at us in MSN / PM / forum posts etc.
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Project Improve NDR
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