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Does god exist?
(99 posts, started )

Poll : Does religion exist? Or, do you belive in something?

No
153
Yes
47
Quote from Electrik Kar :It's bizarre to think of dinosaurs running around at the same time as events portrayed in the bible, but it does put a cool visual spin on things. Actually, if this is legitimate thinking in religious circles I can't understand why christian groups haven't used the dinosaur thing as a recruitment aid for children- everyone knows that kids love dinosaurs, right? It would make bible school a whole lot more fun and it would also make a great movie! The potential is huge!!


I don't think Christianity has that much influence over Hollywood, but there is heaps of material out there on literal creation & dinosaur stuff for kids. Whether a church or Christian subscribes to creationism is another battle.

Quote from ColeusRattus :I just want you to answer me one question. What makes you think that your religion is the truth rather than any of all the other religions?

See, that's the point where religion can't hold up: there are hundreds if not thousands of different religions and every single one claims to be the only true one (well, except buddhism), and if you follow another, you're doomed. How do you chose the right one, as each cancels out tha validity of the others?


Good questions & I'd agree that only one can possibly be correct. Studying them all would be tiresome if not impossible, so should I just give up & use this as an excuse if there was a god? I don't expect to gain knowledge of all of them & I don't claim to have or will try to, but it is reasonable to check out a few main ones if you must. I'll only try to give reasonable argument(s) for my belief in Christianity, as requested. And sorry again, this didn't turn out to be a brief answer...

A particular reason to think Christianity is worth checking out is that it is alone amongst the main religions in having a central figure that claims to actually be God, all the rest are supposedly at pains to state that they are just people.

It revolves around a 'Christ' person. Was this a real person in history? The vast majority of people accept this person as historical fact through accounts given by historians, emperors etc. from around the time & locality. These included many opponents & neutrals, not just some crazy followers.

People then want to say he was a great teacher or prophet, this is a position another major religion mistakenly makes of him. It might well be the maximum (in Fernando Alonso voice please ) that most people are willing to accept, but can it even be an option? He said & did things that deny this choice; he claimed to be God (the same sort of people from earlier back this point up). It was not a misunderstanding either; it was the whole reason the Jews got Pilate to crucify him.

Anyone that claims to be God can only be: God, a liar, or a lunatic. A great moral teacher or prophet does not work. He doesn't fit into a lunatic profile; the psychologically sound moral things that he said, lunatics with nothing to back up their claims history keeps them as insignificant blips. He fulfilled many (over 300 I just Google'd) ancient prophesies of the Jewish writings. For anyone to do a few might be doable, but so many? These weren't just little things that were within the control of an ordinary man. Liar's don't come back to life after death as he himself said would happen.

Everything, Christianity itself rests on this final point. Its late, this was the last bit I wrote of this reply, but if anyone got through this post & really wanted I could attempt to delve into this, but a decent book or a good website may do it more justice. Maybe there's a battle in my head wanting me to avoid writing this bit seeing as its the most important bit, but meh.

In quick response to Becky's point about the woman from man's rib, I read a nice thing the other day about this; a man's rib is close to his heart & protects it. Also, it is not from his head so she can control the man, nor from his feet so that he can walk all over her, it is from his side, a companion. Digressing further; ribs I believe are the only bone that can regrow after having been entirely removed, there is some special lining in there, just a curiosity maybe? Further, man's body was created from dust, that's hardly a step up in things for us blokes & I don't have any real objections with that.

The word 'homosexual' entry in 1957 thing, if its even true (many different bible translations exist & I'm no expert), I'm not entirely convinced it is of as great importance as the people that like to raise the point want to make it. Having briefly looked at it though, the prior words might be 'strange flesh'. The Bible certainly has to be updated to try to ensure it is making the correct points as per the oldest text sources, these being written in a dead language hence aren't subject to changes like living languages, isn't that handy? I probably wouldn't be readily able to understand an important English document from even a few hundred years ago because language 'evolves' for lack of a better word. The context of things & referencing against other moral teachings & understandings in the Bible are what would be used to keep the message accurate.

Also the Christmas date thing; no half-wit Christian would say that Christmas or Easter is actually his birthday date, its just a date chosen due to dates in history always being difficult to define precisely but there are reasonable guestimates. It also served to usurp old pagan periods of worshipping midwinter feasting or something & the earth for fertility & stuff in spring. The early church had influence enough to do this, this does not necessitate there being evil motivations if their aim is to turn people away from what they believe to be wrong & unhealthy.

Beyond what I've written above I'd not claim to be able to answer every question about the Bible, particularly weird OT doctrinal stuff, but to ignore the entire thing due to not liking or feeling comfortable with the difficult bits doesn't seem that good a reason to me, who would accept an entirely agreeable God anyway? Christianity is somewhat the most difficult religion, it does not allow anyone (any longer anyway) to earn their salvation through works. This actually goes against human nature; we want to do things for ourselves, to work it all out by behaving in a certain way or following a strict set of rules, or figuring it out without any help, or to just to be 'good' enough (whatever we may define that to be, although Christianity teaches that we all have been given a set of morals built-in). To have to struggle with accepting a free gift I know I don't deserve for one second is a freaking nightmare.

Quote from ColeusRattus :
That's the beauty of science: it tries to explain our world, but if it fails to do so in one point, it isn't shaken to it's foundations or even cast aside, but simply that one aspect is legitimately worked on, because, unlike religion, science doesn't claim to deliver undisputable truths, but merely the best explanations we have up to date.


Secular science has long since thrown out even the possibility of there being a God. Miracles etc. are not allowed for, but if there was a God would that be a wise thing to do? Science can do much good, and the Bible encourages us to use the world & study it, but as with all things, from a Christian standpoint at least, it can be misused and/or just wrong. Also, science does not even attempt to answer the 'why' questions, only the 'how' ones. Science changes all the time so to use it to form our world-view isn't very wise, nasty things can result from doing this too strongly.

I hope nothing I'm saying oversteps the mark in terms of the forum rules: I am staying away from saying anything nasty about other religions or people, I am simply giving a few salient points about one religion & not trying to force anything on anyone, I hope it reads that way. I hope the above was relatively clear & not wafflicious, nor merely a “wall of text”!
Lets see if I can explain myself... Careful, crappy english ahead:

My family is catholic and will always be catholic, I go to the church when they ask me to, I did my first communion, I'm confirmed... and I've been doing all of that normal stuff that catholics do, but somehow I don't feel better if I go to church or if I pray etc., I just don't feel it.

I somehow believe that there is something that created us (on the big bang), I don't know if it was a man, a dinosaur, an alien, my neighbor or whatever with HUGE powers or as little powers as the MIB's cat that was wearing Orion around his neck ^^. If there is something, I don't feel like giving my life to him/her/it..., I don't think he puts something there for me because he loves me so much or that he's going to help me if I pray. There have been just a few times of my life when I prayed, when I did my first communion (I had to learn all of those long texts or I'd have had a bad time with my mom... geez) and when I tried to feel like talking to "God" (long time ago).

Later on I stopped trying to find the good things about religion, it sucks when my mom calls me an atheist and says that all the things she taught me are now "wrong", I've never said that but thats the way she gets it, feels weird. Today when we were having lunch, she said something about evolution and that she doesn't believe it exist, I argued with her about it, good thing that I had backup from my older sister, as you may now be thinking, she didn't change her mind

To make it short, if there is something after death, I'm pretty sure i'll find that out for myself. I don't need to tell someone why I did something or if I feel bad for doing it, I don't need someone telling me how I should live my life or what is wrong or good, I'm well aware of it.

Now I have something to tell you mr_spoon, it looks like you don't believe in science, I don't know what you're studying or if you studied at all but all I can say (as a mechanical engineering student) is that science is real because you can see, you can measure, you can feel what it explains and you can reproduce it as many times as possible.

I find it weird that you're using a computer that uses numbers to create everything you write here (0 and 1, off course there is hexadecimal and other numeric systems) but you can't believe that fossils need thousands of years to be created... It just doesn't fit inside my head.
#78 - JJ72
Quote from mr_spoon :
I have always been taught to not necessarily believe everything I read in the papers/magazines, this is wise enough. Being brought up in this world I cannot help but be influenced by the millions of years idea, but when I actually looked into things that try to give any alternative explanation to them, they are far more reasonable to me & there are many flaws with the popular view.

You mean make up your own assumptions instead of following logic, and studying what scientists had actually researched for over a century.

Scientists don't earn Masters and Phd just by staying at home and making up stuff, there is a very strict and almost anal standard required to publish a paper worth being noticed.

You are not being wise here, you are buying into the fringes of possiblity with great generalization, while overlooking the overwhelming evidence that is being produced relative to the one supporting your arguments, you are just believeing what you want to believe.

Dont' blame the media on this one, the media has nothing to do with the papers you can find in Oxford's library. If your source has solely been from Tertiary sources, I am afraid you haven't been looking deep enough.
the question in the poll is wrong, it's obvious that religions exists, no one can deny that.. the question is if god exists!

my answer---> NO
The below post contains theories and opinions on a sensitive subject. If you are likely to be offended by the views of an agnostic who is not politically correct enough to pull punches or deliver her point of view in a manner sensitive enough for you then the following post will offend you and you should not read it. I do not care if I offend a billion people, or incurr the wrath of God. I could have him in a straight fight anyway, and i'm not even straight - because ideas can be fought.

Jesus (excuse the pun), that small text o.O....

Quote :I don't think Christianity has that much influence over Hollywood,


Actually yes it does, albeit Christianity is not the only religion to be evident in Hollywood films it is the predominant.

I actually have found myself veering away from Hollywood films over the last few years and turning my back on some stars, such as Jes Wheedon since he produced "I don't care what you believe as long as you believe" Serenity.

Religion is definitely getting more precedent in Hollywood films, and it bothers me, so I watch less of them now. I won't draw conclusions as to why except to say that Hollywood reffers to itself as "a small village".

Quote :A particular reason to think Christianity is worth checking out is that it is alone amongst the main religions in having a central figure that claims to actually be God, all the rest are supposedly at pains to state that they are just people.


Which is quite ironic given that Christianity is based upon a religion that was originally Polytheistic (multiple Gods) and made the transition to worship of a single God in a messy fashion, with many of it's scriptures referring to "the Gods", which is still evident throughout the bible. The bible incidentally disagrees with the Christian faith because it states:

Jahweh is of the Gods, but the Gods are not of Jahweh.

This was a lovely clause thrown in to explain the numerous discrepancies throughout the bible and their source texts, but the point is it clearly states the the Christian religion is a pantheon and not a monotheistic worship - it is, by all accounts, the greatest cover up in religious history - because it's right infront of you that the faith is not monotheistic and that there are other Gods. What the bible actually says is that Jahweh and only Jahweh was the creator, but it very categorically states there are other Gods.

Quote :It revolves around a 'Christ' person. Was this a real person in history? The vast majority of people accept this person as historical fact through accounts given by historians, emperors etc. from around the time & locality. These included many opponents & neutrals, not just some crazy followers.

Many aethiests are quite happy to accept that Christ was probably a real genuine Jew of non-caucasion origin and that he preached and gained a following, whilst hanging out with a whore and generally being a long way from the "ikkle baby jeebus" he's often idolised as. Real person: Quite possibly; Son of a virgin who lead an entirely pious life: No.

Quote :Anyone that claims to be God can only be: God, a liar, or a lunatic. A great moral teacher or prophet does not work. He doesn't fit into a lunatic profile; the psychologically sound moral things that he said, lunatics with nothing to back up their claims history keeps them as insignificant blips. He fulfilled many (over 300 I just Google'd) ancient prophesies of the Jewish writings. For anyone to do a few might be doable, but so many? These weren't just little things that were within the control of an ordinary man. Liar's don't come back to life after death as he himself said would happen.

Here is where we run into sticky water with the whole Jesus thing. See whilst most people will accept he existed, the problem with all this other stuff was this little thing called "editing history" where winners get to chose what they write in the book - in this case, the bible. See it's entirely possible that there was a sermon on the mount, and it's entirely possible that the general facts of Jesus' life are more or less right, and it's entirely possible he had a very good logistics team that organised food and wine for 5000 people. Details can get a bit blurry when there is only 1 account of the truth, this is a pattern evident in any court room in the country if you would care to see this trait in evidence.

The point being, the proof for Jesus being the son of God is in the bible. It's a self-fullfilling prophecy. If the proof was in the Tora then there would be a lot less Jews in the world - but see even the majority of Jewish people know that the Tora has changed over the years and is little more than a vague guideline of a lost era. They are still waiting for the one to fulfil all their prophecies having concluded Jesus wasn't the man, and in his absense praise Moses until a wiser man comes forth.

Quote :In quick response to Becky's point about the woman from man's rib, I read a nice thing the other day about this; a man's rib is close to his heart & protects it. Also, it is not from his head so she can control the man, nor from his feet so that he can walk all over her, it is from his side, a companion. Digressing further; ribs I believe are the only bone that can regrow after having been entirely removed, there is some special lining in there, just a curiosity maybe? Further, man's body was created from dust, that's hardly a step up in things for us blokes & I don't have any real objections with that.

My issue with this, and this is nothing to do with whether it's right to believe or not but more the utter contempt the bible has for women throughout it's many pages of hate and prejudice.

Women are being portrayed as some small morsal of man. A lesser part. Throughout the bible women are possessions. Not metaphorically, and your explanation is all about the metaphors there, but quite literally women are property in the bible. I'm sorry, but anyone who believes in that shit just isn't in the right century. Tell me i'm a possession, and i'll show you want a stoning is. I believe in equality, i'm not PC in actions i'm actually PC in thought, I don't prejudge anyone - even a Christian - on any factor. I treat everybody as an individual and that is what I believe. Like I wont break your beliefs down with facts, you wont break my beliefs down by preaching intollerant hatred from 20 centuries ago at me.

Quote :The word 'homosexual' entry in 1957 thing, if its even true (many different bible translations exist & I'm no expert), I'm not entirely convinced it is of as great importance as the people that like to raise the point want to make it. Having briefly looked at it though, the prior words might be 'strange flesh'. The Bible certainly has to be updated to try to ensure it is making the correct points as per the oldest text sources, these being written in a dead language hence aren't subject to changes like living languages, isn't that handy? I probably wouldn't be readily able to understand an important English document from even a few hundred years ago because language 'evolves' for lack of a better word. The context of things & referencing against other moral teachings & understandings in the Bible are what would be used to keep the message accurate.

The particular passage I was referring too I believe is Mark 1:10, it was written in Ancient Greek. A widely understood language by scholars of these things. The word that is now translated to homosexual is quite correct for modern Greek, it is 'malakoi'. In ancient Greece however this word meant 'young effeminet male call boy'.

Something more important is at play here, ready your paragraph again and see what you did there. You had a believe, and you reinforced it with reason. That mental process has a name, and I am sorry to say you wont like the sound of it: Dellusion Reinforcement.


Quote :Also the Christmas date thing; no half-wit Christian would say that Christmas or Easter is actually his birthday date, its just a date chosen due to dates in history always being difficult to define precisely but there are reasonable guestimates. It also served to usurp old pagan periods of worshipping midwinter feasting or something & the earth for fertility & stuff in spring. The early church had influence enough to do this, this does not necessitate there being evil motivations if their aim is to turn people away from what they believe to be wrong & unhealthy.

I did a whole long post on this last Xmas and i'm not going to do all the research or hunt for it again, in short, he was born September 20th 6BC. It is entirely about ussurping the various midwinter festivals (which if you go post searching you'll find I researched those too and the regions they where held etc, including - most noteably - Rome). Again research is a far better approach than dellusion reinforcement.

Quote :Beyond what I've written above I'd not claim to be able to answer every question about the Bible, particularly weird OT doctrinal stuff, but to ignore the entire thing due to not liking or feeling comfortable with the difficult bits doesn't seem that good a reason to me, who would accept an entirely agreeable God anyway? Christianity is somewhat the most difficult religion, it does not allow anyone (any longer anyway) to earn their salvation through works. This actually goes against human nature; we want to do things for ourselves, to work it all out by behaving in a certain way or following a strict set of rules, or figuring it out without any help, or to just to be 'good' enough (whatever we may define that to be, although Christianity teaches that we all have been given a set of morals built-in). To have to struggle with accepting a free gift I know I don't deserve for one second is a freaking nightmare.

Actually it's pretty clear that the only thing that really pisses God off is not believing in him, otherwise you can murder as many people as you like - particularly if they are women, non virgin brides, or followers of other faiths.

Quote :Secular science has long since thrown out even the possibility of there being a God. Miracles etc. are not allowed for,

If I showed the penny piece behind the ear trick to a primate it would think it was a miracle. Science proves miracles, you seriously think that human beings flying in aeroplanes thousands of feet up at 600 mph for a holiday isn't a miracle? Seriously? Of course it's a miracle. It just isn't a mystery. Science deals in non-mysteries (things it has a 'theory' for) and mystery things (things we're trying to figure out).

Quote :Also, science does not even attempt to answer the 'why' questions, only the 'how' ones.


The why is actually also a how... Think about it, science solves it's "how does that work?" by coming up with a theory and proving it.

The ultimate question of life, the universe and everything: "why?" - has had many theories and none of them can be proven.

Therefor believing them to be correct would be as equally bad science in believing in a proven scientific theory. Science does not ask for or require belief. As I mentioned earlier, I think some widely accepted theories are wrong or in some way innacurate (particularly big bang and dark matter theories), and scientifically, this is perfectly sound.

Religiously, accepting that the stories in genesis are 6000 years ago, and the earth is older, and genesis describes the creation of earth - is heresy. Religion commands you to debunk science, when clearly that is an utterly irrational thing to do.

Not to worry though, because being irrational compared to reinforcing dellusions is really nothing to worry about, the religious have far bigger problems than a little irrationality.

My.....

Where were you guys with all these great ideas when I needed simillar stuff for RE coursework?

Some good reads in here. Strong points
#82 - SamH
Half of it sounds like it was plucked out of zeitgeist
Havent got/had time to totally read this. But if 'god is here to protect everyone?', why the heck is there 3rd world countrys? I ask you that...
Quote from RacerAsh3 :Havent got/had time to totally read this. But if 'god is here to protect everyone?', why the heck is there 3rd world countrys? I ask you that...

Well, if you go by catholic standards, God tests us constantly, and the more we suffer, the easier we get into heaven. So if you're born in a "3rd world" country (allthough that term is outdated since the end of the cold war, with the west being the first, the warsaw pact countries being the second and the rest being the third world...), it's pretty much a guaranteed way to salvation, as long as you're christian.

Also, didn't christ himself say that it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to pass through the pearly gates? So everyone in here is bound for hell anyway, no matter what he does, as we're all richer than 80 percent of the globe's population.

And to introduce a new twist to the topic: why do most religous people think that you need religion to lead a morally good life? In my opinion, and in that of Immanuel Kant, morality should come from within oneself, and there shouldn't be a need for something from the outside to force us to it.
If you only do good because you're forced to it, it isn't "good", as it's actually quite an egoistic notion: "I buy my ticket to heaven if I act according to what others say is good".
Quote from RacerAsh3 :Havent got/had time to totally read this. But if 'god is here to protect everyone?', why the heck is there 3rd world countrys? I ask you that...

The Christian God isn't here to protect everyone, if a parent tried to protect their child from every possible hurt they could encounter, the child would not have free will nor the potential for any experience of any worth. The Biblical explanation is that mankind is 'fallen' & has rejected obedience to him & really taking it from there you can see mankind's greed & self-interest expressed on a global scale. Not only was mankind stuffed through the curse inherited from Adam (note; we can't claim we'd never do exactly the same thing as him), the physical world is stuffed too.

The rich young man story is not an equation that means the rich cannot enter heaven & poor people automatically get tickets. It is explaining that people who have much stuff/wealth usually have little personal need for God as they have substituted material things into the God-gap in their spiritual lives, they lack humility. The poor person does not have this void filled with pointless stuff so has a better chance of noticing this vacancy, he is already humble. It clearly say that the rich man's situation is not doomed; with God he can overcome it (become humble). However, this does not mean that '3rd world' people can find God by their own means & is why Christians try to tell those that will listen; they care about people not hearing the truth they hold.
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Points to consider if Christianity were a conspiracy:

The disciples were initially a mix of cowardly, disbelieving, fallible men, why have Jesus appear to such people? If this were a man-made conspiracy with an aim to fulfil the what the Jews or anyone else wanted, it'd be much better to have people of high-standing, e.g. priests, be the ones to encounter him. These were men that denied even knowing Jesus when asked repeatedly & didn't really understand who Jesus was, yet something caused them all to risk everything after his death to the point where they were virtually all persecuted & killed in horrible ways. Something from first-hand experience changed these people markedly.

Further, why state that hundreds of people, thousands witnessed his miracles & death & reappearance after his crucifixion? If there were not people around to confirm these things it'd be much easier to arrange a conspiracy. Clearly they were all willing to risk their lives in confirming these things, remember the witnesses had already seen Jesus crucified for his claims, many people that were about to be asking them for their first-hand accounts. If the man-made conspiracy was to be believed, why even include potential for such things to refute it? If the stories were untrue, all people of the time had to do was ask these witnesses & if denied the whole thing would fizzle out.

Why were women recorded to be the first people to meet Jesus after his resurrection? As has been stated, women were not of great standing, particularly in a legal sense; perhaps Jesus was setting something straight by doing this? This wouldn't even be a point worth mentioning unless there was significance to it, any man-made religion of the time would not seek to highlight this if it sought credibility.

There is no doubt that Jesus did not fit the profile of what many Jews expected of their christ figure, why would a man-made conspiracy that intended to fulfil the Jewish expectations do this? They wanted a powerful leader that would literally crush their oppressors & set up a great nation. They refuse to see that this is exactly what Jesus did, just not in a military way that they wanted & are still waiting for.

Discrepancies; not getting into the OT polytheistic stuff (+woman stuff) you mentioned Becky as its a point for my further study. Otherwise, the NT accounts given by the apostles are often misused to claim they cannot be true because they differ in slight details. If the Bible were a conspiracy the accounts would be fiddled to match up better. The odd difference you can attribute to the different people witnessing the events & then giving independent accounts as they recalled them. The events were many & detailed, who could not be forgiven for getting minor things a little mixed up yet the important points of their testimonies match up more than well enough?

No doubt this will seem like backwards reasoning to some folk. The "delusion reinforcement" thingy; I perceive this sort of thing in evolutionists who set out to deny creative design of irreducibly complex biological things, their arguments appear poor to me & lacking in evidence. The pivotal point is more of belief, delusion just waffles around it nastily as if to say that the apparent 'illusion' of another person is wrong merely if it differs to theirs. In English, why is the word 'disillusioned' taken to be a negative state of mind for a person to be? Do we all need an illusion, if so why?
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The illusion that mankind could independently figure out God, something inherently beyond the material realm, without any pointers of revelation is definitely endless fun/toil. Christianity might see an overdependance on mere human intellect as an abuse of it because it denies the requirement for faith other than 100% proud faith in our own intellect. If we do this we become humans merely pretending to be God & know everything, this was Adam's very mistake by taking the fruit of 'knowledge', was it not?

A thought; we find ourselves in a physical universe that operates in a very organised fashion to a multitude of laws, but we don't know why. If there are apparent laws of nature that we can observe & do not just make them up, could there also be laws that apply to spiritual things? If so how might we find out about them, or do we just make those ones up? If anyone has read or seen & understood 'The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe' by C.S. Lewis (much Christian allegory if anyone didn't already know), you'll see how this works in Christianity.
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Here are four points with purpose to amuse, or rather to muse over (hehehe):

1. People's behaviour when a child or close person dies. Why do non-religious people (typically?) often describe it being 'in vain' or that they must work out some 'good' from it? When viewing people on the telly saying this sort of thing, think about why they say this, where does this notion of purpose to life come from? In such circumstances are we seeing some nugget of truth or do we attribute it to evolution?

2. Is there a unfulfilled God-shaped spiritual gap in us; do we have a tendency to fill our lives with 'stuff'? I'd admit to wanting to deny this. Do an abstinence experiment; stop some/all interests/activities in your life, e.g. hobbies, doing/watching sport, browsing favourite websites etc., or something that matters (nothing health-related please). Evaluate what happens & see if you can control the desire to fill the void with either that same stuff or other different things. See how long you last before you succumb to reasoning your way out of this due to it being 'silly' or otherwise.

3. The apparent unjustifiably fervent & enthusiastic way that we 'follow' or support things, e.g. a football/racing team or person, or religion for that matter. Is there also a tendency for us to want to turn other people to our way of thinking, that our 'idol' is the best? Try catching yourself doing this. Is it something programmed into us?
Only god knows...
Quote from mr_spoon :
The rich young man story is not an equation that means the rich cannot enter heaven & poor people automatically get tickets. It is explaining that people who have much stuff/wealth usually have little personal need for God as they have substituted material things into the God-gap in their spiritual lives, they lack humility. The poor person does not have this void filled with pointless stuff so has a better chance of noticing this vacancy, he is already humble. It clearly say that the rich man's situation is not doomed; with God he can overcome it (become humble). However, this does not mean that '3rd world' people can find God by their own means & is why Christians try to tell those that will listen; they care about people not hearing the truth they hold.

Interesting read. But that could be the other way round. Perhaps poor people need to fill the gap inside them coming from malnurition and poverty with something, and that something is god. Once they're well fed, they don't need an artificial god to make their life bearable anymore.
Additionally, this philosophy basically tells the surpressed poor masses to not rise up against the few rich who profit from their hands labour, thus laying fundation to centuries of inhumane exploitation.

Quote :Points to consider if Christianity were a conspiracy:

All the gospels were written down centuries after the presumably historical events in the bible. We have no way to know if they really happened or if they had witnesses. In fact, Jesus NOT being a prominent figure in Roman documents of that era does hint that the bible might actually be a tad exagerated.
Also, Jesus was, again presumably, a descendand of king david in a direct line, which made him actually an exiled monarch in his own country. His life might have been just a struggle to get rid of the roman surpression and reestablishing his family's power. The "Son of god" part could've been added later on to empower him and render his ultimate defeat into an eternal victory. According to the very unreliable source of the bible, he was cruzified as INRI, which means Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum, "jesus of Nazareth, KIng of the Jews", which rather implies a political role over a religious one.

Quote : If we do this we become humans merely pretending to be God & know everything, this was Adam's very mistake by taking the fruit of 'knowledge', was it not?

Like preventing the poor to fight their circumastances, god, or rather people who are in power in his name who wrote down the rules, don't want man to know. We all know that knowledge is power, and again, this looks to me like another means to keep the base down.

Quote :
1. People's behaviour when a child or close person dies. Why do non-religious people (typically?) often describe it being 'in vain' or that they must work out some 'good' from it? When viewing people on the telly saying this sort of thing, think about why they say this, where does this notion of purpose to life come from? In such circumstances are we seeing some nugget of truth or do we attribute it to evolution?

Life's purpose on an individual level is to survive and reproduce. But I don't think that there is a greater purpose of life in general. Thus, I'd go even so far to say that life is in vain, additional to death, which is a very crucial part to life.
Concerning the "working out good from it": comfort is a very humane notion, and people tend to find in in irrational thoughts. Finding comfort in the thought that finally, the suffereing has ended isn't any more irrational than finding comfort that that person is now in a better place. (Which honestly would be very unlikely if he was a modern day christian )
Also, I rather observed religous people trying to read sense into tragedies than rational people.

Quote :2. Is there a unfulfilled God-shaped spiritual gap in us; do we have a tendency to fill our lives with 'stuff'? I'd admit to wanting to deny this. Do an abstinence experiment; stop some/all interests/activities in your life, e.g. hobbies, doing/watching sport, browsing favourite websites etc., or something that matters (nothing health-related please). Evaluate what happens & see if you can control the desire to fill the void with either that same stuff or other different things. See how long you last before you succumb to reasoning your way out of this due to it being 'silly' or otherwise.

On this subject, I recommend that read: Douglas Adams' Speech at Digital Biota 2
To sum it up: we don't have a "god shaped gap" in us, but a gap of not knowing and insecurity. The less scientific method we had, the more we needed something else to fill it, thus god was invented. The more we know, the less there is need for a fictional creator and ruler of the universe. Again, also look at the part about religion wanting to prevent knowledge.

Quote :3. The apparent unjustifiably fervent & enthusiastic way that we 'follow' or support things, e.g. a football/racing team or person, or religion for that matter. Is there also a tendency for us to want to turn other people to our way of thinking, that our 'idol' is the best? Try catching yourself doing this. Is it something programmed into us?

Well, thats simply a machanism of our tribal past, where we needed strong bonds within the group to properly work together. And it's quite common knowledge that an outside enemy enforcens the bond, that's why the "we're better" motif works so well. Additionally, it's beneficial for a group to assimilate another, both to gain numbers and become more powerful, and to get fresh blood into the gene pool.


And lastly, I want to come back to evolution: we can actually see that happen, in beings with a very quick reproduction rate: viri and bacteria. They change at almost scaringly rates to adapt and overcome the barriers we put up against them. And these changes happen per chance, not per plan. For one succesful strand there are millions of unsuccessful ones. And that is Evolution. Of course, the slower the reproduction cycle and the more complex the organism, the slower the process of evolution is. That's actually the reason why most of the earths megafauna died out in the end: they were too slow to adapt to a new situation on time.
talking about religion/politics on the internet = FAIL
Quote from mr_spoon :No doubt this will seem like backwards reasoning to some folk. The "delusion reinforcement" thingy; I perceive this sort of thing in evolutionists who set out to deny creative design of irreducibly complex biological things, their arguments appear poor to me & lacking in evidence. The pivotal point is more of belief, delusion just waffles around it nastily as if to say that the apparent 'illusion' of another person is wrong merely if it differs to theirs.

I'm no expert but...

Irreducible complexity suggests that some things in nature are so complex that if you take away just one part of it then the whole thing will not work and, thus, complex things cannot come from simple things and evolution is not true. An example would be to look at a mouse trap. Irreducible complexity says that if you take away just a single part of the mousetrap it will no longer be able to perform the function of a mouse trap thus it would be impossible to evolve a mouse trap.

This is poor reasoning to my mind. Firstly, there is some truth here. If you take away a single part of a mousetrap, or a complex biological structure, then it will likely not work as intended. You could easily observe this in enough situations to take it as a general rule. This has nothing what so ever to do with evolution. To comment on the mouse trap example (one I have heard used by a proponent of irreducible complexity), using a man made object to draw conclusions about a natural system is a dubious analogy at best but you can see what they are getting at.

Unfortunately, they're looking at it in reverse. Sure, if you take away parts from a complex system then that system is likely to break down. What bearing does this have on adding parts to, or modifying the parts of, an existent system? A much better analogy that goes in the correct direction would be to take a simple mouse trap and improve it in some small way. For example, adding a slightly stronger spring to the mousetrap so that it is more effective at it's prescribed task. It is easy to imagine that a 'biological mousetrap' could experience a mutation that would lead to it's 'spring' being slightly stronger.

Can you see the difference in those two analogys? That is essentially the difference between evolution and irreducible complexity.

I really don't think that irreducible complexity is wrong because it differs from my opinion, just thinking about it a little is enough (for me anyway) to realise that it doesn't make much sense and seems of very little relevance or consequence to evolution...it's not even talking about the same thing, for a start! It is a strawman argument; it's a situation that seems similar to evolution, but isnt anything to do with it really, and then that situation is used to refute evoution despite being irrelevant.

That's how I see it anyway.

Sorry for straying a bit OT but I wanted to say it.
Does god exist? I don't know, it depends i guess.

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Quote from ColeusRattus :
All the gospels were written down centuries after the presumably historical events in the bible. In fact, Jesus NOT being a prominent figure in Roman documents of that era does hint that the bible might actually be a tad exagerated.

A quick Google:

http://www.google.co.uk/search ... mp;ct=title&resnum=11

Check out 'Claim 3' on the link I posted at 00:53 today.

The documents about Jesus are more plentiful & of closer temporal proximity to the actual events, more so than many other figures from history that we all have zero problem with taking to be real. These two factors give greater historical accuracy & credibility for Jesus' existence than you can reasonably shake a stick at. Note further that Jesus was crucified at least in his early thirties & born around 4-6 BC, hence you can knock off over 25 years from those dates in a sense.

Quote from Hockquan :...mouse trap...

Behe's mousetrap (he's not Christian anyway, I think). The 'prescribed task' of the biological spring you said - you've already got design factor there maybe? I've seen explanations against Behe's mousetrap, but they tend to do things like replacing the wooden base with a floor which isn't really getting rid of a part, or to say IC can be explained away as a process of 'add a part & make it essential'. Anyway, I agree the non-biological analogies are a bit too simplistic. The complex biological things really are interesting to look at, rather than me failing to do them justice & continuing to waffle, I'll give you a link to fairly good one I referred to earlier:

http://www.answersingenesis.or ... earfully-wonderfully-made

There're also interesting videos about other IC things like the human ear, bird flight & the human eye, which are all pretty neat. On that website's video-on-demand section there are many other videos about creationist stuff if anyone is at all interested as well as answers to many of the points that I've not answered, or done poorly. Sorry to be cheap and link stuff again, but I might just leave it at that, the thread has been interesting.

I think I've given some points of interest & value, as others have too. I've faith that if anyone is willing or interested in checking out further the perspective I've given will do so themselves, its not all down to me anyway.

Thanks & all the best.
>.> I don't know what to say really... I believen god.

Ask me and i'll PM you why.
Quote from mr_spoon :
The documents about Jesus are more plentiful & of closer temporal proximity to the actual events, more so than many other figures from history that we all have zero problem with taking to be real. These two factors give greater historical accuracy & credibility for Jesus' existence than you can reasonably shake a stick at. Note further that Jesus was crucified at least in his early thirties & born around 4-6 BC, hence you can knock off over 25 years from those dates in a sense.

No. There arew plenty of latin and greek sources dealing with early Christians, but I know of none mentioning Jesus by name as an actual historical figure.
That's because Jesus isn't a Latin or Greek name, its a translation so of course the early text have it differently. Google 'Jesus Hebrew name' for answers. Look also for YHWH (the tetragrammaton) and Yahew to Jesus. These are not some hidden 'secrets' of Christianity, my NIV Study Bible even points them out in its preface, they are not a problem.
Quote from mr_spoon :That's because Jesus isn't a Latin name, its a translation so of course the early text have it differently. Google 'Jesus Latin name' for answers. Look also for YHWH (the tetragrammaton) and Yahew to Jesus. These are not some hidden 'secrets' of Christianity, my NIV Study Bible even points them out in its preface, they are not a problem.

The Latin translation of Jesus is Iesus
The Greek translation of Jesus is Joshua
The Hebrew translation of Jesus is Yeshua

So what ? whats in a name ? There have been millions of little baby boys given those names over the centuries. And it still doesn't answer ColeusRattus's question.

You would have thought if just one of those names grew up to be "The Messiah", it would have raised an eyebrow or two in the secular world at the time. Yet not one single Roman historian or administrative clerk made any mention of him.

And, if you really wanna go down the name of Jesus route. Lets not forget Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."

If you really know your Bible, you'll know just how important the prophetic book of Isaiah is to the foundation on which the whole of christianity stands.

Matthew understood, which is why he copied that verse straight into his own Gospel. (Obviously he had to insert 1:21 in there beforehand, just incase anyone doubted the divinity of Jesus) Granted, it may have lead to some confusion having two different names for the messiah, but, what the hell, that's what faith is for, isn't it....


And i'm not sure why you brought YHWH into it. That's simply one of the many Hebrew names for God.
I won't go into the extra-Biblical sources supporting the existence of Jesus as it will just start a debate I don't intend to get into as I'm no historian, instead see the link below if interested. I'll take it on faith from other sources for the time being that this is the case but hope to study it more in the future. I believe that the claims that Jesus never existed are generally not given much credence.

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexisthub.html

The Isaiah 7:14 thing; its the meaning of the word that is of importance, Immanual means 'God with us' whereas Jesus means 'saviour/deliverer', Christianity in a nutshell; God on earth to save us. The Christian position is that YHWH is a fancy name for God who is Jesus, but yes it was somewhat besides the point.

Bye.
Quote from mr_spoon :I won't go into the extra-Biblical sources supporting the existence of Jesus as it will just start a debate I don't intend to get into as I'm no historian, instead see the link below if interested. I'll take it on faith from other sources for the time being that this is the case but hope to study it more in the future. I believe that the claims that Jesus never existed are generally not given much credence.

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexisthub.html

The Isaiah 7:14 thing; its the meaning of the word that is of importance, Immanual means 'God with us' whereas Jesus means 'saviour/deliverer', Christianity in a nutshell; God on earth to save us. The Christian position is that YHWH is a fancy name for God who is Jesus, but yes it was somewhat besides the point.

Bye.

I've only had a cursory glance at the site you linked to, but, if you're relying on that list of secular sources to ratify the existence of Jesus Christ, i'd suggest you don't totally rely on the info on that site. I have a feeling it may omit quite a lot of information on those individuals in question that they probably don't want you to know. Please don't forget that believers do tend to be a tad biased on these matters. I also urge you to check out a chap named Philo of Alexandria. Infact, you MUST check out this guy. You may be in for one heck of an eye opener, if you investigate with a completely open mind that is.

But if you want to leave this stuff till a later date, then i don't mind.

Now....

Isaiah 7:14. Yeah, that's a much touted explanation. There are others, but that one tends to be the most prevalent.

Unfortunately, there are one or two issues which are worth mentioning.

Firstly, we should query the issue of Isaiah using the name E(i)mmanuel in his prophecy. Why didn't he simply use the meaning of the name (as you right say "God is with us"). In many other prophecies (eg Isaiah 9:6) he, and the other prophets always use the meaning of the name, never the actual name itself. i.e "and he shall be called the Prince of Peace", counsellor, the Lamb of God, or even Wonderful (which is actually translated as "Pele" believe it or not )
To my mind, if Isaiah is using the real name and not it's meaning, then that signifys something different, something special. Agreed ?

So, If Isaiah is specifically prophesying (sp?) "They shall call him Emmanuel" (and not its meaning), then we should, quite rationally expect them to call him Emmanuel ?. If Matthew goes on to say the angel told Mary to call the child Jesus, we would rationally expect her to call him Jesus, and not it's meaning "God Delivers/Saves". Yeah ? Do you see the confusion ?

So where in the New Testament does anyone call him Emmanuel ? conversely, where does anyone call him "Jesus God is with us" ?. Jesus Christ, Jesus of Nazareth, Jesus the Messiah, yes, but not once is he called Jesus Emmanuel or Jesus God is with us ?

So was Isaiahs prophecy wrong ? Or is it too easy to say, just coz it's not mentioned in the Bible doesn't mean to say it never happened ? Perhaps, but this is the Bible we're talking about here. Its not a book that leaves prophecies unfulfilled unless they havn't actually been fulfilled yet. The Bible is a highly complex literary piece of work that interweaves its way through centuries of miraculous events, times and people, cross-referencing everything with everything else. It always attempts to dot the i's and cross the t's. Yet, we appear to have drawn a blank with this one....Not conclusive i know, but, it should get your head scatching...?


So, what else is wrong with that passage....quite a lot actually, and it's a biggy

Lets not forget Matthew was the only New Testament author to make this connection between Isaiah 7:14 and the birth of Jesus. The others didn't think it was worth a mention. And perhaps they were right to do so...

As with most scriptures, it's very very dangerous to take them in isolation. You always need to look at them in context (otherwise a devious mind could get any scripture to say anything he wanted).

So lets look at it in context, lets start at Isaiah 7:10. (i'm not going to quote scripture here, you can go find it yourself) What we find is that God was speaking to Ahaz, and Isaiah was there as the go-between. Ahaz was in a spot of bother. He was a King who's land was about to be invaded by two of his fiercest enemies. He was reluctant to ask for help from God, but God gave him a sign anyway. And, as you guessed it, that sign came in the form of a prophecy stating HE would send a special person bringing about deliverence and safety to his people, i.e 7:14. Ahhh hang on though...didn't the prophecy say a virgin would give birth to a son etc etc, surely that's refering to Jesus. Well no, and no

Firstly, why would God give Ahaz a prophecy concerning his deliverence from his enemies, if it would be another 750yrs before that prophecy was fulfilled ? That's not really gonna do Ahaz or his people much good, now is it. What kind of a loving, benevolent God do that to HIS chosen people ?
Secondly, and perhaps most impotantly. There was a bit of a miss-translation going on in that there scripture. And it's quite a significant one. It happens quite a lot in both testaments of the bible with this particular word, and here is no different. The word in question, is the Hebrew word "Almah". The true definition is, young woman, girl, maiden, and not (as in Isaiah 7:14) a virgin. So that should shine a whole different light on Matt 1:20-23

What we are saying here is, it would appear Isaiah 7:14 has nothing to do with the coming of Jesus whatsoever. And was a specific prophecy for a specific person at a specific time. How do we know this ? Because this prophecy was fulfilled....take a look at 2 Kings 16:9. (i'm not going into it here, it would take all day, but check out that and the other scriptures in the chapter, and the picture should become clearer.)

So, you may ask, why did Matthew make this connection between Jesus and Isaiah 7:14, when non of the other Gospel writers mentioned it ? Why did Matthew use a prophecy that wasn't quite kosher ? To give Jesus credibility ?, to fool the stupid, lazy and gullible ?

Thing is, it's not the only time he did this. Take a look at Matt 2:22: being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee. 23: And he (Joseph, Mary, and the lil baby Jesus) came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

Ok, so one of the prophets said the Messiah would be a Nazarene. Right, so er, which prophet was that then ? Where in the Bible can we find this prophecy ? Go take a look yourself, coz i cant find it ! I've looked and looked and looked, but it just ain't there. No prophet, no prophecy, not even a mention of a Nazarene anywhere in the Old Testament. So where the hell is Matthew getting this stuff from ? And again why is he using this non existant, or non applicable prophecy to give credence to his Messiah ? And again, why is he the only New Testament author making this connection between Jesus and these ancient prophesies ?

The only thing i can suggest is, Matthew read all the prophecies saying God would send a Nazirite to deliver this person, or that bunch of people or whatever. There's quite a few of those prophecies in the Old Testament. Problem with that though, is, a Nazirite and a Nazarene, are two completely different things. A Nazirite is someone who has made a specific vow to God and to follow certain rules and regulations as laid down in the book of Numbers. A Nazarene is someone from Nazareth (and i'm not even going to get into whether Nazareth actually existed at that time in hostory or not, that a whole different argument).

So, if you're still with me after all that. Should we be questioning Matthews credibility as a purveyor of truth and all things holy. Or should we ask, "is he trying to pull a bit of a fast one here" ? That's for you, the reader to decide.

All i've done is brought to light some of the facts relating to this particular situation. I havn't made them up. They're all there for you got go check yourself. And please do, don't just take my word for it. If you really are a seeker of the truth then you'll have no issues with checking all this stuff out for yourself. But, if you'd prefer to simply dismiss it all without checking, and declare that i'm doing the devils work, then so be it, i don't care tbh.

One of the biggest problems with the Bible is'nt actually the Bible itself. It's the people in positions of power and authority who read it, then decide for us, how we are gonna interpret it, what we are gonna believe and how we should live our lives by it. For a dictator, religion is the golden goose that lays golden eggs, it's all his birthdays and all christmases rolled into one, it's the answer to all his most wildest dreams. To a dictator, whether large or small, global or local, political or social, religion is quite literally, a gift from God...

So is religion a good or a bad thing. It's great....as long as you don't believe in it.....




Sorry, written much more than intended, and it's now very very late, so i can't be bothered to check spelling or grammar.Forgive me...

Does god exist?
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