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Does god exist?
(99 posts, started )

Poll : Does religion exist? Or, do you belive in something?

No
153
Yes
47
Quote from MadCat360 :Good and evil are notions completely created by humans.

Indeed they are, but it's still relevant.

Supposed all loving God or Gods would still intervene in times of evil, but no such action has ever happened, which means He/They either don't have the power to stop it, or He/They can't be arsed.

There very well maybe a form of higher being out there in the universe though, but are they God? Are they the Creator?

No, they're not. It's just part of a story created to give hope to the peasent masses that they'll go somewhere lovely and happy when they die, deluding them from the simple fact that they'll just rot in the ground.

I mean, if we can't conclusively find out if God exists now, how the hell did they all those years ago?
#52 - SamH
Religious belief is faith in something that you can't prove. Those who believe without proof that god doesn't exist are often as religiously adamant as those that believe he does.

I'm an agnostic. I believe the question is unanswerable, the answer is un-knowable, the knowledge is unachievable.

What I do think is entertaining, in a kind of slow-motion car crash kind of way, is the re-emergence of the Sun God in the global warming debate. Every religion starts out as science, superseding the religions of the day with new and better explanations.. and this is happening all over again with man-made global warming science/religion.

People think they're so enlightened and can see through all the religions, but the truth is that they just fall out of one religion and into the next one they feel they can place their faith in.

It doesn't matter if it's Rune Stones or weather satellites, Stone Henge or melting ice caps, global warming scientists are using utterly fallible scientific methods to draw protracted conclusions, as if they were witch doctors predicting whole worldly futures based on infinitesimal shards of so-called scientific proof.. and stating with great authority that Mother Earth is angry at us, and will punish us unless we pay Carbon Emission taxes and Methane Taxes.

Bollocks to religions. All of 'em.
Quote from SamH :Religious belief is faith in something that you can't prove. Those who believe without proof that god doesn't exist are often as religiously adamant as those that believe he does.

I'm an agnostic. I believe the question is unanswerable, the answer is un-knowable, the knowledge is unachievable.

What I do think is entertaining, in a kind of slow-motion car crash kind of way, is the re-emergence of the Sun God in the global warming debate. Every religion starts out as science, superseding the religions of the day with new and better explanations.. and this is happening all over again with man-made global warming science/religion.

People think they're so enlightened and can see through all the religions, but the truth is that they just fall out of one religion and into the next one they feel they can place their faith in.

It doesn't matter if it's Rune Stones or weather satellites, Stone Henge or melting ice caps, global warming scientists are using utterly fallible scientific methods to draw protracted conclusions, as if they were witch doctors predicting whole worldly futures based on infinitesimal shards of so-called scientific proof.. and stating with great authority that Mother Earth is angry at us, and will punish us unless we pay Carbon Emission taxes and Methane Taxes.

Bollocks to religions. All of 'em.

Yes it's quite scary how global warming has turned into what it is.

However, I don't think there is any harm in believing in a religion. I read the Bible occasionally, but I wouldn't call myself Christian, at least not the Christians I know. I don't force my beliefs on anyone. It's the extreme viewpoints that make a bad name for more rational people. I say more rational, because there really isn't anything rational about religion.

For me, anyway, religion is more about comfort. Whatever helps me sleep at night.
The problem with both having a religious point of view or a non-religious point of view is that it is utterly foolish to have either.

I have argued against religion many times on this forum because I know from personal experience, personal research, and subjective analysis that absolutely no good can come from religion what-so-ever except that that is attributed to it incorrectly.

For instance, it is scientific fact that people who are ill in hospital are less likely to recover if they know they are prayed for than people who do not know they are prayed for and people who aren't prayed for at all - yet people innocently attribute healing to religion and do not see any harm in it, despite the solid evidence to the contrary.

However, I also laugh heartily at those who "believe" in science. I was pointing and laughing at Steven Hawking when his theories where taught to me as fact - i've even debunked his theories to his face, he looked down on me for it, and I left it at that because there is no point in arguing with arrogance.

I did not point and laugh at my many priests when their views where taught to me in the same way, because I was too young and influencable at the time, I was indoctrinated young. I laughed later though, when I found my own path in life, because fools are little more than entertainment to me and if you can't laugh at an idiot then there really isn't any use for them at all.

I don't care what you believe, but if you believe, then you are wrong - without a shadow of a doubt - but how can I be so sure of my own 'belief'? Surely it is just that, it is a 'belief' right?

Well put simply, I don't care to have a belief at all. Quite often the religious fratternity ask the question "well how do you know how you got here?" and "have you not asked where we all came from?" and other questions of the like. My response is a simple one: I know the question cannot be answered so I do not try to answer it.

I do not care where we came from and I do not care to impose rulesets upon myself based on a theory of where we came from - whether it was a modern educated scientist who composed the theory, or a sexist biggot from the beginning of recorded history.

You do not need to know where you came from to live a good life, and neither does it matter.

I find it a sad state of affairs that no matter where you are born in the world, and no matter what you believe, that millions of people will hate you because of their own beliefs. On that basis alone you try convincing me that belief is a good thing, and you are onto a looser.

Oh and that argument about "Well you may aswell hedge your bets". No, there is too much evil in the "good book" no matter what good book you believe in for me to accept it. Too much prejudice, too much hatred, and too much intollerence.

I am an extremely liberal person, even to the point i'm seeing somebody who's quite religious. Broach me on the subject of religion however (as she wisely doesnt) and you'll find the one thing i'm intollerent about and with good reason: Belief in itself is something I regard as evil, regardless of what the belief is, as I see it as a source of negativity toward others and therefore inherrently un-liberal, to be un-liberal is to be intollerent, and I have no tollerance for intollerence.

I answered no to the poll on the basis that any and all specific Gods from any religion in human history is just a fantasy and does not exist, categorically. Whether there is something out there that is best described as a God, I do not know and I do not care.

It is political correctness that we should give religious freedom and allow people to express their religious views and respect them. I don't give a damned about political correctness (despite being a raving liberal), I do not tolerate intollerence, and I see intollerence as the primary focus of all religions, therefore, it is the 'right' thing to do to debunk religion and to mock it with supporting argument and i'd be a lesser person if I did not.

It is argued that religion is a personal thing, but all the religions we have ply their trade by imposing themselves on others. If they did not then religion would die in a generation. Religion thrives on indoctrination of the young and impressionable, it is how they tried to recruit me. It thrives on weaving itself into the fabric of society so that it is always an option and taken seriously, inspite the ludiocrity of it's very core. Therefore, it is my duty as a citizen to point out it's flaws at all appropriate opportunities.

Yes, for those that profess to be religious in this very thread I would think less of you if I was taking notes but oddly I do not because i'm not that bothered in you as individuals, and when I read your names in subsequent threads i'll start fresh over as I usually do because for me to recognise one forum user over another between threads is rare, as I really dont care about most of you.

That said, to say I that this is my "belief" would be incorrect and to say I must respect other beliefs would just be refuted. If you have a belief I do not respect it, and I never will.

The question of where we came from cannot be answered, which leaves just the moral code of the various good books - and frankly - i'm not interested in what men from a few thousand years ago thought about what was right and what was wrong.
Quote from SamH :What I do think is entertaining, in a kind of slow-motion car crash kind of way, is the re-emergence of the Sun God in the global warming debate. Every religion starts out as science, superseding the religions of the day with new and better explanations.. and this is happening all over again with man-made global warming science/religion.

Nobody in their right minds would condemn cyanobacteria for oxidising the atmosphere, but apparently we can't seem to do anything right.

My secret faith is that (human caused) global warming will turn out to be the reefer madness of the late 20th/early 21st Century.
God is just one big bollocks, I ONLY BELIEVE IN JEEP.!!!
#57 - 5haz
Seeing is believing.
It's meaningless whether or not God exists.
To be honest, after watching all of these big bang programmes, and "Beginning of the world" stuff on National Geographic channel, and then in comparison, studying religion back at school.. I can safely say that the science behind the "big bag" and "evolution" theory is far more believable than some virgin magically giving birth to a child she never conceived, since she was still a virgin!

Religious people then claim it was a sign, but it wasn't. It's just them trying to blag their way out of a lie, because their entire store is a load of baloney.
Quote from S14 DRIFT :To be honest, after watching all of these big bang programmes, and "Beginning of the world" stuff on National Geographic channel, and then in comparison, studying religion back at school.. I can safely say that the science behind the "big bag" and "evolution" theory is far more believable than some virgin magically giving birth to a child she never conceived, since she was still a virgin!

Religious people then claim it was a sign, but it wasn't. It's just them trying to blag their way out of a lie, because their entire store is a load of baloney.

Our religion teacher forexample teachers as "This is what is in the bible", but "However you interprete it is upto you". It pisses me off cause she is christian, and has admitted it yet knows its a load of bollocks, and bends what it says to make it "possible", "However you want to interprete that". >_<
I think she's only giving you the opportunity to choose for yourself.
My angle would be that I don't believe evolution to be true, but then why is there such impetus towards it? Britian anyway makes out that any God-believing people are unreasonable nutters. I believe mankind is largely happier to explain God out of the picture by any means possible, even if by clinging to unreasonable ideas. I don't believe evolution nor long-age earth, therefore God is a better & more reasonable explanation for the world around me. If there is a God it is reasonable to expect that he would want to communicate his existence to us by some means. Therefore, of all the main religions around, the oldest ones would appear the most viable or ones that explain things in a reasonable fashion from the 'beginning'. All new or modern religions can be disregarded. Science cannot 'find' God nor 'the point of it all', what happens to all the people before the 'truth' gets found?

I cannot satisfy myself with the notion that 'the truth is unknowable' as it is self-refuting by claiming to be a truth in itself, so truth could be said to be knowable.

The quote from Epicurus (it's be nice to just wish away the existence evil saying it is a human construct, eh?), here's my thoughts on it for fun;

1. Not omnipotent if willing but unable to stop evil - this could only be a God that cannot do anything about evil, not a God worth believing in. Meh, I'm willing to stop evil, but I'm not able to, evidently I'm not God.

2. Malevolent if able but not willing to stop evil - taking evil to be something separate from a 'good' God, only a God that that absolutely denied our own free-will would prevent us from doing evil. Only a God that provided no opportunity of escape from evil upon judgement would be malevolent.

3. Able & willing to prevent evil; clearly we don't live in a world where God has denied us free-will nor has he denied us the chance to be able to avoid the penalty for evil, or rather we should look for a religion that provides such an escape. In answer to the statement, a religion that tells us where evil comes from would be handy.

4. Unable & unwilling to prevent evil; we should stop looking to things that cannot or will not have any bearing on dealing with evil, clearly they are not God, hence these things should be called 'false gods'.

The God described in 3 appears the only one possible, it seems more like a proof for (Ed: the correct sort of) God than against.

The denial of the existence of God is the natural human stance to take, hey I'd rather believe it was okay for me to do anything I wanted do & that there were no consequences, but sadly I believe this is wishful thinking.

Anyway, I voted 'yes' in the end.
Quote :I cannot satisfy myself with the notion that 'the truth is unknowable' as it is self-refuting by claiming to be a truth in itself, so truth could be said to be knowable.

It really doesnt, because it is a very specific thing we're talking about here.

The root of all religions is their creation myth, it's the basis on which they stand as the justification for their proclamations [of hate].

By acknowledging that neither science nor religion has answered the question of where we come from, and chosing not to pick any of the unproven myths available in prefference for waiting it out for a clear and proveable answer, what you are in fact saying is "I do not know the answer". This is different to saying, "I do not know the answer and that IS the answer".

Science has not proven it's own creation myths, of which there are several theories which have been postulated, i've read some of them and they are very interesting (i'm quite tickled by the n dimensional theories) but I dont 'believe' in any of them.

However, science has disproven the Genesis story, so to understand why we have the Garden of Eden one must look instead into the history of the book and how Moses compiled and edited it from the various sources available to him - and looking at why he would chose to write it.

I'll give no facts here on that, i'll let you go off and do your own research, because if you're going to destroy or strengthen your faith by it then you need to be willing to take on the task properly and reading a forum post is the wrong frame of mind for that: Google would be a good starting point.

Be prepared to find out that Judaism was originally polytheistic (thus explaining the discrepancy of "God" and "Gods" throughout the bible) and thus the whole root of the original bible has long since been lost to all the religions spwaned from it (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) which are now so far removed from their original stories that they no longer represent the historical account that they claim to represent - thus their own basis for faith is entirely bunk.

Both science and history can specifically disprove the Christian bible, yet people still believe in it *shrug*, some people just 'want' to believe it's true because their too proud to admit that they have been wrong - but don't tell them that, because the bible lists pride as a sin.
#64 - 5haz
The Bible: A cover up story of one woman's illicit affair that got seriously out of hand.
Can you gimme a lead on where science has disproven the Genesis story at all, that's the side i've been looking into a lot already but haven't seen whatever you're referring to? I have been googling plenty over the last few months, for & against.

I take the Moses flood to be true & the evidence for that being all the fossils. I take the fact that the Bible claims about ten times that animals to be created 'after their kind' to explain variation within species, but not the creation of new things like evolution claims happens, only the former is witnessed in reality (Ed: including the fossil record).

So far I think the Bible provides a reasonable explanation for where we come from. I'm not saying everything makes simple sense, e.g. the forbidden fruit thing seems weird, but if God is involved some things in the 'game plan' have to be allowed for.

The stuff about looking into the authenticity & inerrancy of the Bible is a tough one but I've yet to delve into that, although if a God was possible there is the idea that he must keep an accurate 'book'.
#66 - SamH
Quote from mr_spoon :genesis, moses etc

Okay, the bible pitches the creation of heaven and earth at being about 4000 years ago. Bones don't become fossils until they've been in the ground significantly longer than the bible says anything's been around.

Rather than 4000 years covered by the bible, science evidences that the universe has been around about 13.7 billion years. That's a lot longer, by the way. Dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago. The ice age ended approximately 10,000 years ago. Mount Ararat is NOT EVEN REMOTELY the highest point on earth and would NOT have been the first bit of earth to resurface after the waters receded. It would take more than 40 days and 40 nights of rain to cover the earth with water, besides which there is not enough water on the earth to do it.

The bible's a nice idea. Well, the new testament anyway. God, in the old testament, was quite something of an arrogant twat that always wanted worshipping. Signs of insecurity and narcissism in ones god aren't good.

If you want to really get to the bottom of whether you can believe in god and the bible stories, just apply a bit of rational thought. If you value reason above blind faith, the bible is not for you.
Quote from mr_spoon :Can you gimme a lead on where science has disproven the Genesis story at all, that's the side i've been looking into a lot already but haven't seen whatever you're referring to? I have been googling plenty over the last few months, for & against.

Well, the immediately smackingly obvious one is carbon dating. It's a little older than 6000 years babe. That's fact, and it is solidly reproduceable. To believe the Earth is 6000 years old is to wantonly ignore facts for the sake of not throing away a 'greater ideal', but another fact is that the 'greater ideal' depends on it's creation story to be correct.

Quote :I take the fact that the Bible claims about ten times that animals to be created 'after their kind' to explain variation within species, but not the creation of new things like evolution claims happens, only the former is witnessed in reality (Ed: including the fossil record).

Um no. The latter is evidenced and usually duly ignored by those of creationist beliefs. Whilst we do not yet fully understand all the building blocks of life and evolution, we do understand DNA. Each gene in your DNA sequence has a 1 in 45,000 chance of random mutation, that is to say, you have a chance of inherriting an attribute not from your parents but because of the "sloppy" nature of how the framework of life works.

I've never accepted the Christian resistance to this concept, DNA does not prove nor disprove God. It simply shows how patterns and traits manifest. The problem of course is that Darwin is seen as a heretic and DNA is seen as proof of his (widely missunderstood) theory "The Origin of Species". Darwin incidentally was an avid Christian, and believed in survival of "the best adapted" (not fittest as he's often quoted).

We know how evolution works, we can see it and prove it to be working on a micro level, and we can see the effects of it on the macro level.

None of this has any bearing on faith however, which is what annoys me about the whole historical need for the Christian faith to debunk it, because it simply shows how evolution works - it does not show why. It may very well be that this is the mechanism that 'God' uses.

Quote :So far I think the Bible provides a reasonable explanation for where we come from.

Yes, it is entirely reasonable to believe that woman was created from a spare rib. It is at least entirely consistent with the bibles derrogatory stance toward possessions. I meen women.

Quote :I'm not saying everything makes simple sense, e.g. the forbidden fruit thing seems weird, but if God is involved some things in the 'game plan' have to be allowed for.

I don't see why God should be 'allowed for'. I am however prepared to accept that the bible is full of both metaphor and illeteral tales, the particular story you are referring too as penned by Moses started "In a beginning", and not "In the beginning" as it appears these days. If you go read the start of that story again and consider where it is in the bible, it might put things into the right context for you.

Quote :The stuff about looking into the authenticity & inerrancy of the Bible is a tough one but I've yet to delve into that, although if a God was possible there is the idea that he must keep an accurate 'book'.

There are lots of things that have been changed over the years, we're talking bigger stuff than Jesus birthday being moved to December, but whole prejudices where inserted to reflect changing values (I think you know where i'm going with this one), the word 'homosexual' was first included in the bible in 1957.

They still havn't managed to write women in with any level of equality of course, we're still possessions, still have to do leviate marriages, and it's still a stoning offence to get married if we're no longer innocent (even if raped).

It all makes perfect sense of course, the values of a time gone by era must be maintained because that is the will of God. Or rather, that's the mechanism that was used to get primitive men to follow the social code.

Quote from Becky Rose :

None of this has any bearing on faith however, which is what annoys me about the whole historical need for the Christian faith to debunk it, because it simply shows how evolution works - it does not show why. It may very well be that this is the mechanism that 'God' uses.


That's a stance I've always held. I don't like it when modern Christians get all in a fuss because someone might have a different theory to theirs. In my view, that is extremism - the inability to accept or at least humor other people's views.

I'm with you on translation and point of view as well. Forgetting everything about whether the Bible is true or not, whether you read it or not, one needs to keep in mind that it was written a very long time ago, when the world was a very different place and humans acted very differently in many ways. And don't even begin to think that any version of the Bible is a perfect translation... and that's the difference between saying "I want some fruit punch" and "I want a punch".
Quote from SamH :Okay, the bible pitches the creation of heaven and earth at being about 4000 years ago. Bones don't become fossils until they've been in the ground significantly longer than the bible says anything's been around.

6000 years or so I think actually, but anyhoo! :P Have a look for rapid fossilisation or petrification, who says fossils cannot form rapidly. There is no great need for long lengths of time to fossilize anything. Catasrophic floodwaters carrying masses of minerals & sediment takes care of that. Fossils also show that the animals were 'caught' rapidly; animals caught whilst giving birth, whilst in the middle of eating other fish, whilst standing fighting. Soft tissue is fossilised, jellyfish, fields of them all flattened at once. 'Living fossils' of things that scientists once claimed was of a once badly evolved fish, are found to still be living, did they just forget to evolve? There are zero transitional creatures; see Lucy, Ida etc, they are not what the scientists try to claim, the 'missing links' are still painfully missing. Why are tissues of T-rez found in fosills, it could last a few thousand years or so, but not millions?

Millions of years is unquestionably what is reported in the media & everything people are taught at school/university etc., that does not have to make it true. I have always been taught to not necessarily believe everything I read in the papers/magazines, this is wise enough. Being brought up in this world I cannot help but be influenced by the millions of years idea, but when I actually looked into things that try to give any alternative explanation to them, they are far more reasonable to me & there are many flaws with the popular view.

Quote from SamH :Rather than 4000 years covered by the bible, science evidences that the universe has been around about 13.7 billion years. That's a lot longer, by the way. Dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago. The ice age ended approximately 10,000 years ago. Mount Ararat is NOT EVEN REMOTELY the highest point on earth and would NOT have been the first bit of earth to resurface after the waters receded. It would take more than 40 days and 40 nights of rain to cover the earth with water, besides which there is not enough water on the earth to do it.

Science cannot evidence the world to be that old, it is only guessing & wrongly in my opinion. To extrapolate such vast timescales from shaky dating methods that conflict with each other is not what I call wise, they make assumtions of uniformitarianism etc. Myths of dragon exist all around the world well before the first fossils were ever discovered. Records of people describing things that sound like what we now call dinosaurs & pictograms or whatever of plainly dinosaur-like creatures exist alongside normal things we recognise today. The Bible includes a description of a creature that had a tail "like a cedar", even Bible commentaries (that try to appease the millions of years evolutionist thinking) usually try to say this is an elephant or rhino, but their tails could never be described as such. Dinosaurs were probably hunted to extinction or they could not cope with the post-flood earth.

The ice age probably was a consequence of the climatic changes after the flood. The flood lasted for a year or so, not 40 days. I have read that there is plenty water to cover the earth to 2 miles or so & prior to the flood there is some liklihood that the world was not as mountainous prior to this but I can't remember the reason behind this off the top of my head. Also Mt. Ararat I think would be a pre-flood name that was then given to the post-flood world, as are all such names like the Euphrates as people mistakenly think that it is the same one as described in the Bible. Descendants of Noah just renamed things as per things they knew from before.

Billions of years universe; the timescale on 14bn years for the universe is not even enough time for the background radiation in the universe to have become uniform as it is, this is a known problem of astronomy already called the 'horizon problem'.

Quote from SamH :The bible's a nice idea. Well, the new testament anyway. God, in the old testament, was quite something of an arrogant twat that always wanted worshipping. Signs of insecurity and narcissism in ones god aren't good.

If God behaved in the way that we as humans wanted him to, then that'd suck. Well no actually it'd be a bunch of roses, I could do as I please & ignore him. If the relationship between God & mankind is meant to be like that of a husband and wife then it is understandable for him to be somewhat miffed if we went around ignoring him & paying more attention to other things.

Quote from SamH :If you want to really get to the bottom of whether you can believe in god and the bible stories, just apply a bit of rational thought. If you value reason above blind faith, the bible is not for you.

My mind is relatively okay I think, I hope some of the above stuff above can be seen to be reasonable if people can set aside the assumption that the earth MUST be as old as the media & textbooks have taught us all. All things concerning matters outwith out sphere of experience are necessarily based on faith. The only difference is whether the facts people look into give more reason to believe in one answer or another. We work from the same facts but interpret them differently.

Sorry for the long time to reply or if people have given up on the thread etc., but I find this topic quite interesting. Sorry to not have covered some of the points from Becky but I can't say I have particular answers for them.

Ed: Another point I believe in is irreducible complexity in the design of creatures. To say they evolved seems fanciful & is lacking in evidence. I've seen stuff about human reproduction & I then understood how it is often described as a miracle. If any one of many factors was not in place, there would be ZERO reproduction therefore no evolution possible whatsoever. Many others but that is a pretty convincing one.
#70 - SamH
If you read my views on man-mad global warming you will know that I'm not a blind follower of science. But to reject the science that we do have, of which there is an abundance of evidence even if differences of interpretation and methods exist, all in favour of creationism? PuhLEEEZE!
#71 - 5haz
God does exist... in your head.

It's your conscience, your moral compass if you like, that voice in your head that says "I wouldn't do that if I were you mate".

The ten comandments in the Bible are pretty much common sense to most sane people (don't be mean to others etc), you don't really need to listen to some man mumble on on a Sunday or have the fear of an imaginary god put into you to be able to follow these 'rules for life'. If you have common sense and sanity then you don't really need religion to live a good life, just listen to the voice in your head, not what some preacher tells you.
Quote :To extrapolate such vast timescales from shaky dating methods that conflict with each other is not what I call wise, they make assumtions of uniformitarianism etc. Myths of dragon exist all around the world well before the first fossils were ever discovered. Records of people describing things that sound like what we now call dinosaurs & pictograms or whatever of plainly dinosaur-like creatures exist alongside normal things we recognise today. The Bible includes a description of a creature that had a tail "like a cedar", even Bible commentaries (that try to appease the millions of years evolutionist thinking) usually try to say this is an elephant or rhino, but their tails could never be described as such. Dinosaurs were probably hunted to extinction or they could not cope with the post-flood earth.

It's bizarre to think of dinosaurs running around at the same time as events portrayed in the bible, but it does put a cool visual spin on things. Actually, if this is legitimate thinking in religious circles I can't understand why christian groups haven't used the dinosaur thing as a recruitment aid for children- everyone knows that kids love dinosaurs, right? It would make bible school a whole lot more fun and it would also make a great movie! The potential is huge!!
Quote from mr_spoon :Wall of text

I just want you to answer me one question. What makes you think that your religion is the truth rather than any of all the other religions?

See, that's the point where religion can't hold up: there are hundreds if not thousands of different religions and every single one claims to be the only true one (well, except buddhism), and if you follow another, you're doomed. How do you chose the right one, as each cancels out tha validity of the others?

That's the beauty of science: it tries to explain our world, but if it fails to do so in one point, it isn't shaken to it's foundations or even cast aside, but simply that one aspect is legitimately worked on, because, unlike religion, science doesn't claim to deliver undisputable truths, but merely the best explanations we have up to date.
I'll stand by my statement that there is a God.

His name is Steve Jobs.

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Quote from dawesdust_12 :I'll stand by my statement that there is a God.

His name is Steve Jobs.

</thread>


Ah, so you're one of those cultists, called iDiots.


Does god exist?
(99 posts, started )
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