well real tires get a similair behaviour, me and a friend at the time did a really really long burnout.. then we drove off (with no wheelspinn) and entered a corner at around 30km/h and the car skidded like we drove on snow or somwthing. And this is a corner where 50km/h is actually a bit slow.

I do agree that lfs "could use" a little bit more grip when the tires are superhot.. and i also think that they should blow at lower tempratures. But i dont think LFS tire physics are "that" unrealistic. But sure could use a little upgrade... but lets not forget that if they mess up the physics so that you cant really drift any more... lfs will die, cause its easily 50-60% who bought LFS just to be able to drift.

Quote from AcesHigh :

well real tires get a similair behaviour, me and a friend at the time did a really really long burnout.. then we drove off (with no wheelspinn) and entered a corner at around 30km/h and the car skidded like we drove on snow or somwthing. And this is a corner where 50km/h is actually a bit slow.

I do agree that lfs "could use" a little bit more grip when the tires are superhot.. and i also think that they should blow at lower tempratures. But i dont think LFS tire physics are "that" unrealistic. But sure could use a little upgrade... but lets not forget that if they mess up the physics so that you cant really drift any more... lfs will die, cause its easily 50-60% who bought LFS just to be able to drift.

and 40-49% are cruisers and 1% racers..

Lfs is pretty much dead already, it could be alive if there were no cruising

Quote from AndroidXP :

Tyre temperature vs. grip [Patch U]

The other question is, is that real-life too ?

Quote from senn :

fix what?

huh? Isn't it clear enough in the first post?^^
Anyway devs probably know that but too much things to do at same time for only 1 person

Last weekend I took my car to trackday, and drove really badly..

First time out, and I overdrove the car so bad it was embarassing. Most corners entered way too fast, and alot of sliding. I have awd, so there wasn't alot of drifting as such, but alot of sliding around and locking up tires.
After a few laps I noticed my tire grip degrading noticeably, especially in the last corner which is a sharp hairpin where you whip the car around. The pit entry is on the outside of this corner, and the pit exit itself is around 20m onto a staging area. On one of my runs where the tires were really bad I exited onto this staging area and immediately felt the tire temps with my hand, expecting to burn my hand. To my surprise the tires felt definetly hot, but not burning hot. I would estimate around 50deg C. This is performance street tires. With the amount of degradation to grip I was expecting REALLY hot tires. I can't imagine what it would be like driving on tires 150 or even 100degrees, but I assume it would feel pretty greasy.

Now, it COULD be that my tires just cooled down really fast, but I was off the pace for a maximum of 15-20 seconds before the car was stopped and I was out and touching the rubber. I felt the tires after about a minute and they still felt pretty hot.

Now I know this is in no way scientific, but a subjective observation, but still I think I can tell a difference between 50 and 150 degrees.

If you want to see real life tire overheating, look up one of the hundred or so motorcycle burnout videos on the web. A lot of these end up blowing out the tire in less than a minute.

What I don't know is how hot tires get from constant drifting. They obviously wear quickly, but I don't know about the heat failure aspect.

There are some stunt videos of cars doing donuts for quite a while, with little apparent tire smoke, so I guess these cars are using some special tires meant for this as opposed to normal or racing tires: burnout.wmv . From what I recall, they finally got this full demo run after only going through about a dozen spectators (victims?) in the pretake with "minor" mistakes.

Quote from atledreier :

Last weekend I took my car to trackday, and drove really badly..

First time out, and I overdrove the car so bad it was embarassing. Most corners entered way too fast, and alot of sliding. I have awd, so there wasn't alot of drifting as such, but alot of sliding around and locking up tires.
After a few laps I noticed my tire grip degrading noticeably, especially in the last corner which is a sharp hairpin where you whip the car around. The pit entry is on the outside of this corner, and the pit exit itself is around 20m onto a staging area. On one of my runs where the tires were really bad I exited onto this staging area and immediately felt the tire temps with my hand, expecting to burn my hand. To my surprise the tires felt definetly hot, but not burning hot. I would estimate around 50deg C. This is performance street tires. With the amount of degradation to grip I was expecting REALLY hot tires. I can't imagine what it would be like driving on tires 150 or even 100degrees, but I assume it would feel pretty greasy.

Now, it COULD be that my tires just cooled down really fast, but I was off the pace for a maximum of 15-20 seconds before the car was stopped and I was out and touching the rubber. I felt the tires after about a minute and they still felt pretty hot.

Now I know this is in no way scientific, but a subjective observation, but still I think I can tell a difference between 50 and 150 degrees.

Thats what i mean aswell with my example it was a burnout and though we didnt touch the tires we went sideways in 30km/h in a corner where you normally go 50km/h(everyday driving).

I dont think that LFS tires physics are that off really, especially since hearing your input. Ive seen 115bhp volvos burn rubber in 3rd gear once the temperature rises. But i do believe that a small adjustement should be made to make it a little bit harder to overheat so damn much.

I like it as it is at the moment when you are in blue or green zone. But once you get to red it seems to get out of control and rise very fast. But you only really drives with red when you are drifting, or have made a terrible mistake and spun out or choose wrong tires.

If you spin a tyre fast enough the carcass won't heat up so much, the tyre surface will and this will not damage the tyre as much.. :o

Quote from AndroidXP :

Related:
Load Sensitivity (tyres)
How does LFS's longitudinal tyre physics compare with these?
Tyre temperature vs. grip [Patch U]

Really interresting, haven't seen these before.

Let's pretend there's no elephant in the living room (this thread).. are you going to make this for actual patch? It would be nice to see, how much did grip level changed compared to older patch(es).

Quote from Shotglass :

so the problem could be anywhere from a simple 'thread failure isnt modeled yet' (arguably this forum has modeled it successfully for years)

ROFL.

And they say german humour is dead

Quote from jtw62074 :

If cold tires have less grip than hot ones, why is the very first lap on a qualifying run so frequently the fastest lap those tires will ever do, even in a series where tire warmers are not used?

Because some drivers (like me) like their cars to have a fair bit of "slideyness" in them which gives them flexibility on the limit.

1) I didn't read this whole thread
2) I didn't watch the video
3) I'm not a professional racer
4) I'm not an engineer

On my road car I still have my dedicated winter tires on even though it's summer. Since the limits on these tires are so low, I tend to get sideways atleast a couple of times a day - they're pretty fun

Anyway, I took a short aggressive sprint on a 60F degree (~16C) day (sideways through multiple turns). I came to a stop and when the light turned green I began accelerating fairly slowly. For the first time ever, I was actually caught off guard in the car. The tires were spinning at ~1500 RPM in second gear while accelerating VERY slowly (if anyone's familiar with RX-8s you know they don't make hardly any power at this RPM). I had to be very very easy on the throttle to avoid getting the car sideways. At ~3k rpm the rear end was sliding back and forth while I was driving at or below 35-40mph. It basically felt like I was driving on ice. Obviously, the winter tires were not designed to operate at this temperature and I had overheated them pretty bad on my short sprint. But I never really expected that it was possible for tires to behave like this at such low speeds with such slow acceleration. I felt exactly like LFS after doing burnouts for a while.. In fact, I found that these tires feel exactly like LFS's tires (even though the limit on my winter tires is lower - LFS has a reduced sense of speed so the driving experience actually feels similar).

Quote from nesrulz :

btw, Matrixi, try with realy cold tires, stay on track about 30 min. ,and then drive, like on ice...

i cant last more then 30 seconds... curse you ps3 controller/T1/windows 98

Quote from Technique :

1) I didn't read this whole thread
2) I didn't watch the video
3) I'm not a professional racer
4) I'm not an engineer

On my road car I still have my dedicated winter tires on even though it's summer. Since the limits on these tires are so low, I tend to get sideways atleast a couple of times a day - they're pretty fun

Anyway, I took a short aggressive sprint on a 60F degree (~16C) day (sideways through multiple turns). I came to a stop and when the light turned green I began accelerating fairly slowly. For the first time ever, I was actually caught off guard in the car. The tires were spinning at ~1500 RPM in second gear while accelerating VERY slowly (if anyone's familiar with RX-8s you know they don't make hardly any power at this RPM). I had to be very very easy on the throttle to avoid getting the car sideways. At ~3k rpm the rear end was sliding back and forth while I was driving at or below 35-40mph. It basically felt like I was driving on ice. Obviously, the winter tires were not designed to operate at this temperature and I had overheated them pretty bad on my short sprint. But I never really expected that it was possible for tires to behave like this at such low speeds with such slow acceleration. I felt exactly like LFS after doing burnouts for a while.. In fact, I found that these tires feel exactly like LFS's tires (even though the limit on my winter tires is lower - LFS has a reduced sense of speed so the driving experience actually feels similar).

That is very interesting. I wonder if the same would happen on all-season tyres or summer tyres. I can't replicate it, because I don't have a car.

Quote from Danke :

+1

Having the grip in tires go away due to wear (rather than just heat) would add a lot to LFS league racing. As it is, as long as they don't pop, you don't even think about wear.

exactly With wear you should lose many more seconds per lap than a hot tire does. Because the sticky rubber is low.



In LFS (its in alpha though), its still all about the heat.

Think about it. The main factor of all (wear) is only relevant to LFS tires because it affects how quickly one loses temperature overtime.
So in 20 or 30 laps you only lose seconds because the tire can't keep the heat and not because of the "wear" per se.

Bottom line is, I don't like to point out faults on an Alpha product while demanding a fix like I'm entitled or something. Fault or no fault, Its bullsh*t attitude.
He's right about the heat though

Last I saw, LFS doesn't mention if the tires are "winter" tires.

This is all very pathetic. You all know very little about tires (at best), so why not just shut to hell up, because you are not helping to solve the problem and your whining and arguments are of no help to anyone. That's as far as insults to the comunity go.

As far as Scawen is concerned, for Christ's sakes.. get some proper beta testers. You have a god damn Norbi playing this game and if anyone bothered to actually CHECK for some FACTS you would find the following:

1. cold tire model = total garbage, once the tire is black (24°C) even 3 laps of pushing on Aston GP wont get it back to how it's supposed to look.
2. too little a number of compounds, R3 on a XFR are not supposed to be the same as R3 on a FZR, nor should they have the same temperatures etc. LFS needs at least 1 compound more between the ones that it already has.
3. tire grip doesnt get BETTER as the thread is worn out (it gets worse, how much depends on the manufacturer of a certain tire.. for example Pirelli who is an official supplier of tires for Seat Eurocup has a pretty bad tire which suffers from a lot of punctures and the lap times get progresivley worse)
4. cold pressures should be a lot lower (1.4 bar for example, instead of at least 1.8 which u need in XFR if you don't want R3s to burn)
5. thread comes back from massive overheating. WRONG. in real life, once you go past the optimum temp by more than 10-20 deg you can stop and throw the tire away. chunks start falling out, delamination etc. optimum tire temp for a Leon is 80-90 deg, if you go past 110 tires are RUINED and no amount of cooling down will help them come back.
6. tires should be able to operate at optimum temps but have different rates of wear. example: leon tire is 3/4 worn after a 60 km (14 lap race) even if kept at nice optimum temps.
7. tires should operate best at lower slip angles (talking about slicks) and reward nice and smooth driving.. for now it's possible to just get the car into oversteers and keep correcting the wheel all the way through a corner.. tires go up 1-2 deg but everything is "fine" (and this is basicaly the fastest way to drive for now).

Now the things that are correct and things that other sims have wrong/right:

rFactor..

1. tire at 50 % wear still keeps same temperatures as a new tire rolling down a straight. WRONG, thread is the heat capacitor in this case.. as it is worn there's less stuff to keep the heat. LFS has this right.
2. tire grip falls off as the tire is worn. this is correct, but the numerical values are waaaaay too big. example graph:
http://www.team-sirius.com/dow ... lemetry/LMgripfactors.png
Tires in lfs should lose grip, but not as drastically as rFactor does it. Even at 13 % wear grip falls off by 5 % in rfactor and the tire becomes almost undrivable. You should be able to do some decent lenght stints on endurance tires without them turning into complete crap. LFS tires get better as they wear out (until the extreme end when they're very cold and become slidey again). FRESH tire has the best available grip, hence hotlaps should be the fastest on a fresh set of R2's.. but if you completley ruin them you can get up to 1 sec advantage on a longer track.
3. bla bla they pick up too much temp by just rolling friction and some other unrealistic things.. but I dont have the time now.

Conclusion: there are probably PLENTY of people who race something in real life (let's count out some of the racers who drive on track days and stuff like that).. just ask people who are succesful in real motorsport AND in LFS.. someone who can feel the difference on a real track and on a LFS track - that is the person who needs to help you beta-test things. Not some kids who just played lfs for 3 years and finally got good at it but have no clue how things actually work and they just wanna adjust everything so it suits them in LFS.

/out

Quote from Chrisuu01 :

Just wondering refering to the threat title what excatly does this have to do with elephants becaus they get slippy when there soapy..

no! its an expression. It refers to something that is obvious, important, embarrassing, but no one dares to talk about it.

I request a mod to lock this thread, I've given my presentation and I hope scavier will notice it. This thread won't serve any more purpose since it only ends in a flamefest after another.

Thanks.

Then why didn't you put it in the "Suggestions and Improvements" Thread?

He probably saw that his "statements":

Quote from Matrixi :

(Lessee how many posts until the first "well don't drift/this isn't a drift sim" post comes up)

Quote from Matrixi :

This is exactly what I expected from this forum though, anything that happens in LFS is automatically realistic. No questions asked, ever.

were poroven wrong in this thread.

Quote from Matrixi :

I request a mod to lock this thread, I've given my presentation and I hope scavier will notice it. This thread won't serve any more purpose since it only ends in a flamefest after another.

Where are the flamefests?

Most of the things posted here go right over my head but I do see that this is a very civilized discussion and there certainly is no flamefest.

Also, if you only want them to notice it, you can send the devs an e-mail and not post on this oh so evil forum.

Quote from kamkorPL :

What I meant was, I wanted to give example we are not e-experts and we speak from experience and from opinions of drivers who also have more real life experience and cars that get tires very hot in few runs.

the thing is all drift competition runs that ive seen so far are hardly ever longer than 30 seconds or so
keeping in mind that drifters dont preheat their tyres theres a lot of drifting to do to get the temps up to the level you leave the pits at in lfs ceretainly more than a short 30 seconds run will do

unless the model has changed a lot sine the time i did a bit of drifting after the spectacular failure that was rtdc pre heated road normals will happily do 1.5 - 2 laps of constant drifting round fe gold rev without overheating

combine the two and you get a very different picture of how the tyres measure up to real world drifting

Sry zeugnimod but I would agree with dude. Also most of the changes proposal ends like this pls remember that point of this thread is improving LFS otherwise it will always stay alpha version or it would be even worse if eventually it will be released with rather average physics and all the mistakes and big amount of things to improve.
Actually all good games have great attention to details cuz the game is made of this small details as a dev i would definitely work on small things actually i wonder maybe time in which tire getting hot can be changed somewhere in cfg file in this case it would be rather easy to change.
In any case first time i see community that actually want to stop the development of the game sry but reading all the comments in different improvement threads its look like this to me

So you my want to reconsider this lack of criticism of yours otherwise you would end up with rather average game.
Yeah physics is good but do LFS have actually anything more than it?
Cars, tracks, detailed car settings, sry there is much more to mention and the answer will still be no.
So if you want it to have at least good physics or realism you cant stop the development and shut ppl who says its sux.
Cuz yea realism it haz it wonder in few year how much things in LFS could actually compete with others sim since other games are rather work to improve realism and community actually ask for improvement not like this yea devs have they pace, we don't need no graphics smaller improvements and stuff like this.
Hope you get my point.

Oh no! The fanboy firing squad is after me! Heelp!

In all seriousness, not a single email I've sent to devs has ever been answered. If it's about a speedhacker, I get silence from them. If it's about suggesting something, I get silence from them. This wouldn't be any exception. Posts #25 and #28 also fit the "not a drift sim" classification just fine aswell.

All the negativity over here.. where does it all come from? It's mind boggling. Don't people here want LFS to improve? Are the fanatics too afraid of any change, no matter is it towards realism or not? Are you worried that you might have to re-learn driving in LFS again? I just can not understand this at all.

Quote from Matrixi :

All the negativity over here.. where does it all come from?

In this case the negativity started from post #1. You didn't even believe in your idea yourself. You started this thread like it was bound to fail.

Quote from geeman1 :

In this case the negativity started from post #1. You didn't even believe in your idea yourself. You started this thread like it was bound to fail.

+1, most of the negativity in this thread came from yourself.

And 2 posts out of 98, what a way to prove your point.

Hahah, oh come on. I didn't believe in my own idea, yet I took the time to post it up so it would be seen? Right-O. I don't believe that LFS can become better than it is? Sure thing buddy, whatever you say. A thread that involves oversteer and a suggestion always ends up as a massive shitbomb. That has been more than enough in the "more steering lock" and the "mountain track" threads. The mindsets of purist LFS fanboys never seize to amaze me.

You did prove me right about one thing, it was a lost cause from the beginning just as I predicted, and I shouldn't have done a damn thing about pointing out a problem in the first place.

Ahh, screw this crap. I'm outnumbered here no matter how I look at it. You win! The evil drifter has been beaten down to the ground and will never rise up to point out physics problems again.

- GAME OVER -