After all the blah blah blah about how to rip off Logitech...and apparently a number of people actually doing it...they got smart. Now you have to send your wheel in before they send a replacement.

Quote from MAGGOT :

Some people will just have to go without LFS if they cant afford it.

Sorta like in real life: that Aston Martin Vanquish I want but can't afford.

"Yet another dimension of LFS that is as real as reality." ©

Quote from MyBoss :

If the faster car tries to pass someone, of course the car with the blue flag should give way.

No! That's not always true.

Apparently at least part of the confusion about passing exists because there are four different situations with slightly different 'rules,' at least in my view: 1) when overtaken by leaders (being lapped), 2) when dicing with other cars on the same lap, 3) when you're a late entrant and weren't on the start grid, and 4) when your car has spun off and is re-entering the track.

In case #1, I submit, the overtaken car should be as predictable as possible, and make an effort to allow the leaders to pass safely; the driver is however perfectly at right to maintain a proper racing line, unless significantly slower--and arguably should as part of being predictable. The leaders, in any event, are still responsible for a safe and clean pass. If an accident occurs it is the fault of the overtaking car, of the leaders. I know there will be howls of disagreement to that statement, but the way I read the various rules that's what they say. If someone can show me a published rule that has it the other way around I'll certainly change my view.

In case #2, the blue flag really shouldn't be shown--and probably wouldn't on a real track. The car in front doesn't have to move over at all, is perfectly within his rights to take an inside line, and may make one blocking (but not dangerous) move on the straight. Again, the overtaking car is responsible for ensuring a clean and safe pass. If an accident occurs it is (usually) the fault of the overtaking car.

In case #3, the overtaken car has no 'rights,' and carries a heavy burden to stay the hell out of the way, to drive in a very predictable manner and avoid obstructing the racers in any way, including pulling into the grass if necessary. On a real track, after all, no one would be allowed on the track to just do laps during a race. In any event, the overtaking car still must ensure a safe pass, out of self-preservation if nothing else. If an accident occurs the overtaken car is at fault in my book.

In case #4, while not a blue flag situation, the issue of who has the right of way and who is burdened to ensure there is no obstruction or collision is black and white: the car attempting to retake the track is entirely responsible. Because visibility in our cars is difficult, using the track map will tell you if a car is coming. If a driver pulls onto a track in the path of an oncoming car he is entirely responsible if an accident occurs.

Yes?

I'm inclined to disagree with Mario (assuming he's talking about cornering) when he writes:

Quote from Mario Toyota Racing :

...you must move from ideal line and maybe even brake a little...

As a leader--not that that happens a whole lot, mind you--when I'm overtaking a slower car I prefer something predicatable to maneuver around...and the most predictable car is one on the racing line. If I'm overtaking a slower car, and set up for an inside pass, for example, the last thing I want is for him to pull to the inside and slow up!

And to clarify, I don't believe holding the racing line applies if you're racing for position. The lead car has every right to take a tight line to make a pass more difficult...at the expense of slower lap times for both cars, of course. That's why two or three cars fighting it out are often overtaken by others back in the pack, after all.

If Mario is suggesting, as a back marker, pulling off line on a straight and feathering the trottle to ensure a clean pass for leaders before the next corner, I would definitely agree.

Quote from Albieg :

To automate such a behaviour wouldn't do justice to faster racers who are lapped (for example because they started later) but still going faster then the people ahead. Should they slow down to a halt for that? I don't think so, if they're sensible enough not to cause damage. But the thing was addressed somewhere else, I don't remember if in CRC rules or in another thread or two, or three...

Agree entirely, not something that should be automated; passing, after all, is what racing is all about. I was just suggesting that perhaps we could try to find a simple statement of the rule that we would all agree is fair and effective (recognizing, of course, that there will always be those that don't give a rat's ass).

Maggot's version works for me:

Quote from Maggot :

...when shown the blue, and the lapper is close behind, you hold your line. Don't slow up on a straight or veer off of the track so they can get by. Also, don't block or change lanes across the track and don't hold the driver up if it is avoidable.

Quote from MAGGOT :

I think the consensus should just be that when shown the blue, and the lapper is close behind you, hold your line. Don't slow up on a straight or veer off of the track so they can get by. Also, don't block or change lanes across the track and don't hold the driver up if it is avoidable.

Simple and to the point. I concure completely.

Quote from Rob76 :

Again, like the blocking moves that are allowed, that's specifically about cars racing for position, without blue flags. The ruling on blue flag situations often puts the responsibility onto the car being shown the blue flag to allow the following car to pass.

Correct! I entirely agree [edit--added later: about racing for position, but I'm not aware of a single example where the responsibility is on the car shown the blue flag. If there is such a statement somewhere it certainly would explain some of the confusion here. Can you recall where you saw that?]

Quote from Rob76 :

There does seem to be some variation between sactioning bodies and their take on how far a blue flag goes. The SCCA, for example, basically state the blue is used to warn the driver a car is trying to overtake (although not stipulated, it is probably mostly in cases of cars being lapped). It does not seem to indicate the following car should be allowed to pass. The FIA, on the other hand, do state the car being shown the flag should allow the following car to pass, 'at the earliest opportunity'. These sort of differences probably don't help a global racing community come to agreement on what it means in LFS. Throw in those who don't give a shit or just don't handle the situation well, and you'll occasionaly have the odd incident.

Well put. Any chance we could come to some consensus within LFS including some sanction for those that ignore it (kick or ban)?

Actually, other than this issue and the T1 mayhem, folks in general and here on LFS spcifically are great fun to race with online.

Last edited by Tailspin, Sat 22 Jul 2006, 20:17.

Quote from wark :

"It DOES NOT mean 'get out of the way!' It means, in essence, 'be predictable--you're being overtaken.' In fact, the OVERTAKING CAR is responsible for avoiding an accident."

Says who?

All the major sancioning bodies. The SCCA rule book, for example says, "The responsibility for the decision to pass another car rests with the overtaking driver."

In Formula Dodge races, for example, if the overtaking driver is not at least alongside at the turn-in point (at the latest) and there is contact as a result of the pass attempt, the overtaking driver is at fault.

Quote from Becky Rose :

sorry i'm colour blind, you put out a blue, I see red and start foaming at the mouth.

Sorry for not taking the thread too seriously, give me a few more days and i'll be ready for another blue flag thread.

What amases me is the thought process that leads to somebody thinking a motor racing forum would not have thought to discuss this previously...

I mean there's not using search, and there just out right avoiding it...

What amazes me is you asume I didn't search the forum and didn't read other threads. What amazes me more, and why I started this one, is there seem to be an awful lot of folks that don't understand what a blue flag means. And the responses here prove my point.

If you're so worried about wasting bytes on another blue flag thread you might have contributed something to help solve the problem...

Last edited by Tailspin, Sat 22 Jul 2006, 13:08.

Quote from MAGGOT :

Uhm, I disagree with that. Most major series have in their blueflag rules that the flag means "hold your line, faster car(s) coming through." You do NOT have the right to block a leader coming to lap you when you are shown the blue flag.

You're right...that was bad writing on my part. I didn't mean to imply that blocking was okay under blue...only once and only in the normal course of racing. A move to block a much faster racer and the leaders would certainly be inapproporiate

Delete this thread

Last edited by Tailspin, Sat 22 Jul 2006, 12:58.

While no expert, it seems obvious to me that folks don't understand what a blue flag means.

It DOES NOT mean 'get out of the way!' It means, in essence, 'be predictable--you're being overtaken.' In fact, the OVERTAKING CAR is responsible for avoiding an accident.

That said, if you're way back in the pack and the leaders are catching you, you really should make it easy for them to pass.

But the racing is hot and heavy and some guy behind you is overtaking, you DO NOT have to pull over and let him pass. You MAY hold your racing line, and HE must avoid sticking his nose inside you on sweapers or at slow corners. Indeed, he can't pass on the inside UNLESS he has a subtantial overlap (his nose is visible to you) before the turn in point.

And yes, you CAN take an inside line to make it hard for him to pass. And yes you CAN make one blocking move on a straight away (but only one). Unless of course it the leaders blowing past you.

And if you're hit from behind HE is the jerk, wrecker, ****, etc...not the driver of the car being overtaken.

At least that's my belief. And like all my other beliefs, this one is subject to revision too, if someone can convince me I'm wrong.

Thoughs?

Quote from Victor :

ok, it should be fine now. At least here I don't get the timeout anymore. If you still get it, maybe you need to refresh with a ctrl-f5

Thank you! Works great.

Quote from ORION :

You ahould have about 15 seconds until the live alert background process hijacks the alert window
Was already reported a couple of weeks ago, dunno if vic tried to fix that yet.

Actually, it's more like 3-5 seconds. Couldn't type fast enough, so tried pasteing, but still not fast enough to get on...

A pal and I have both had trouble logging on to LFSworld. I'm guessing a java issue.

Before we can type (or even paste) in user name and password we get a 'page time out' pop-up message.

I, somehow, managed to get logged it, but he still can't.

Thoughts?

As a reasonably new LFS driver I'm not sure I have the right to make any suggestions...but I will make one observation: almost all the suggestions here are for graphics improvements not handling. I'd say that's a huge endorsement for just how right you've got it!

I'm going to pitch a story to Road & Track (and if they don't tumble Car & Driver) about racing sims in general and LFS in particular. Would you contact me please by email?