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The key word in the post you quoted was "HIGH above max power", I already explained myself on this in a previous (rather long) post.
ok now I understand 
and I agree with your suggestions.What system are you talking about?
+1 to that.
Then it is just plain wrong. IRL shift lights come on at preset rpms. I'm talking about shift lights in race cars not "economy shift lights" or whatever.
Misinformation? My friend it is you who is misinformed.
ajp71, you are right on a few parts, I didn't explain them correctly in my previous post. However what you are saying are not exactly true either. For example, the MRT example may be valid, but it's a rather special case isn't it? Since as you say they use an already existing engine designed for sth else. Please tell me, why would someone want to make the max power point, max safe rpms, limiter and shift light at way far apart points of the rpms? In an engine designed for a specific reason, not using a random engine that was available.
Please tell me why would it be reasonable for any car to have it's max power at 7000, it's limiter at 6800, it's shift light at 6770, and it's max safe rpm at 6500 (or at 12000). I'm surprised really, because I've been studying (and tuning in my cars) internal combustion piston engines for about 10 years, and if a mechanic told me that we'd build my engine in the way you say I'd laugh and leave. I've also been studying racing regulations for various types of racing, and I've yet to see a race series where the engine was like you said. Either made that way by the regulations, or by the team given a certain freedom of tuning by the regulations. All engines I've ever seen in my life, road, racing, bikes, boats, armoured vehicles, aircraft piston, turbo, jet engines, all are designed and built along a standard pattern: maxpower -> rev limiter(when there is one) -> max safe rpm, in that order and usually quite close together. If the W196 as you say had the max power point above the limiter then it was wrongly tuned. I'm talking now about a REAL max power point, like the engine was tuned to produce it there. And since most racing cars have a peaky power curve if for example it was tuned for max power (let's say 220hp) at 6200 and the limiter was at 5500, at 5500 it could very well make a little over 130-140hp. If on the other hand it was tuned for max power at 5200, it could make ~180hp there. I suspect you're talking about the theoretical max power at higher rpms than the limiter. If so, all engines have the potential for more power at higher rpms than they work now, if tuned properly for the more air and higher rpms. But that's theoretical, it doesn't mean that if they went above the limiter as they are now they will make more power. They won't.
have you seen many racing cars where the max power is below the limiter? Or the limiter is 5000rpm above max power? Or any road car? For example, my old car had max power at 6200rpm, and the limiter at 7000. My new car, is the same car only the newer model, ad it has the same engine, only improved. It has more power and torque, but now the max power is produced at 5200, and the limiter is at 6000. Since it's the same engine, and even more with improved internals you'd expect that the previous 7000 limiter was fine. So why didn't they leave it up there? Since max power was now lower it didn't make any sense to leave the limiter almost 2000rpm above even if it was a safe rpm for the engine. Yes, 7000 was safe, but 6000 is safer. And if the power is at 5200 you don't need to go above 6000. You don't even need to go at 6000. Bad gearing as you say is a factor, but not that much. For example, my third gear is quite higher than the rest. So instead of my usual 5200 shift point, I change second at 5500. And that's what's needed. I don't need to go to 6000 to make up for the taller gear, since above 5200 the engine already starts to drop the power fast, and I would actually lose time high above that. Of course that depends heavily on the torque and power curves but still. My engine is pretty peaky for a road car, and third is quite a bit taller than the other gears.
Anyway, the ideal shift point has indeed everything to do with gearing, but the shift light does not. If as you say my car was very badly geared (which it isn't anyway), if one gear was very short and the next very tall, then yes, the ideal shift POINT could very well be above the limiter. But the shift light should come on regardless. If it's programmed to come on at 7200 and the limiter is at 8000, no matter what the gearing is like, it WILL come on at 7200. Even if I completely change the powercurve and the way the engine performs, if I don't change the shift light it will still come on at 7200rpm. So as you can hopefully see my thread is completely valid, and the shift light comes on late.
And BTW all power curves I've seen, and in all cars I've driven, the curve does actually just drop after max power. You might have more ACCELERATION in the lower gear because it's short, the power will be less.
ajp71, you are right on a few parts, I didn't explain them correctly in my previous post. However what you are saying are not exactly true either. For example, the MRT example may be valid, but it's a rather special case isn't it? Since as you say they use an already existing engine designed for sth else. Please tell me, why would someone want to make the max power point, max safe rpms, limiter and shift light at way far apart points of the rpms? In an engine designed for a specific reason, not using a random engine that was available.
Please tell me why would it be reasonable for any car to have it's max power at 7000, it's limiter at 6800, it's shift light at 6770, and it's max safe rpm at 6500 (or at 12000). I'm surprised really, because I've been studying (and tuning in my cars) internal combustion piston engines for about 10 years, and if a mechanic told me that we'd build my engine in the way you say I'd laugh and leave. I've also been studying racing regulations for various types of racing, and I've yet to see a race series where the engine was like you said. Either made that way by the regulations, or by the team given a certain freedom of tuning by the regulations. All engines I've ever seen in my life, road, racing, bikes, boats, armoured vehicles, aircraft piston, turbo, jet engines, all are designed and built along a standard pattern: maxpower -> rev limiter(when there is one) -> max safe rpm, in that order and usually quite close together. If the W196 as you say had the max power point above the limiter then it was wrongly tuned. I'm talking now about a REAL max power point, like the engine was tuned to produce it there. And since most racing cars have a peaky power curve if for example it was tuned for max power (let's say 220hp) at 6200 and the limiter was at 5500, at 5500 it could very well make a little over 130-140hp. If on the other hand it was tuned for max power at 5200, it could make ~180hp there. I suspect you're talking about the theoretical max power at higher rpms than the limiter. If so, all engines have the potential for more power at higher rpms than they work now, if tuned properly for the more air and higher rpms. But that's theoretical, it doesn't mean that if they went above the limiter as they are now they will make more power. They won't.
have you seen many racing cars where the max power is below the limiter? Or the limiter is 5000rpm above max power? Or any road car? For example, my old car had max power at 6200rpm, and the limiter at 7000. My new car, is the same car only the newer model, ad it has the same engine, only improved. It has more power and torque, but now the max power is produced at 5200, and the limiter is at 6000. Since it's the same engine, and even more with improved internals you'd expect that the previous 7000 limiter was fine. So why didn't they leave it up there? Since max power was now lower it didn't make any sense to leave the limiter almost 2000rpm above even if it was a safe rpm for the engine. Yes, 7000 was safe, but 6000 is safer. And if the power is at 5200 you don't need to go above 6000. You don't even need to go at 6000. Bad gearing as you say is a factor, but not that much. For example, my third gear is quite higher than the rest. So instead of my usual 5200 shift point, I change second at 5500. And that's what's needed. I don't need to go to 6000 to make up for the taller gear, since above 5200 the engine already starts to drop the power fast, and I would actually lose time high above that. Of course that depends heavily on the torque and power curves but still. My engine is pretty peaky for a road car, and third is quite a bit taller than the other gears.
Anyway, the ideal shift point has indeed everything to do with gearing, but the shift light does not. If as you say my car was very badly geared (which it isn't anyway), if one gear was very short and the next very tall, then yes, the ideal shift POINT could very well be above the limiter. But the shift light should come on regardless. If it's programmed to come on at 7200 and the limiter is at 8000, no matter what the gearing is like, it WILL come on at 7200. Even if I completely change the powercurve and the way the engine performs, if I don't change the shift light it will still come on at 7200rpm. So as you can hopefully see my thread is completely valid, and the shift light comes on late.
And BTW all power curves I've seen, and in all cars I've driven, the curve does actually just drop after max power. You might have more ACCELERATION in the lower gear because it's short, the power will be less.
Last edited by Kosmo, .
Hmmm.... The engine's peak power and the RPMs at which it is produced have nothing to do with the gear ratio. Furthermore, in all kinds of engines, based mostly on the materials used, a certain RPM is defined through study/tests, above which the engine can be damaged. The limiter can then be set a little below that, and the engine can be tuned to produce it's max power a little below the limiter.
Limiters are adjustable ajp71. In road cars and racing cars. As is the engine's power curve. There's no reason for a car, be it a racing or road car, to produce it's max power at some RPM that the engine will be damaged. There is also no logic to having the limiter way up there, since there is no point to rev high above max power. For example, a racing car could produce -with a certain setup- it's max power at 9000RPM. Why would anyone want to put the rev limiter at 14000RPM then? No point. Or, a given engine cannot exceed 9000RPM without damage. Why would anyone tune it for max power at 12000RPM? Again, no point in that. Of course, at 12000RPM it will produce more power than at 9000, but what's the meaning if the engine breaks down all the time? The limiter and the max power RPMs are *completely* related (not mechanically but in the way an engine is designed/tuned), and they are also related with the max safe RPM, both in a racing or road engine where both (limiter and power curve) can be tuned either from the team or from the factory.
But even so, this has nothing to do with my question. My question was about the shift light. It should be at about the max power RPMs. So in patch Y where the light comes on at the limiter, either the shift light comes on at the wrong RPMs (above max power, where you might want to rev if the next gear is too long as you suggest, but the light still has no business up there), or the limiter is too close to max power RPMs.
Limiters are adjustable ajp71. In road cars and racing cars. As is the engine's power curve. There's no reason for a car, be it a racing or road car, to produce it's max power at some RPM that the engine will be damaged. There is also no logic to having the limiter way up there, since there is no point to rev high above max power. For example, a racing car could produce -with a certain setup- it's max power at 9000RPM. Why would anyone want to put the rev limiter at 14000RPM then? No point. Or, a given engine cannot exceed 9000RPM without damage. Why would anyone tune it for max power at 12000RPM? Again, no point in that. Of course, at 12000RPM it will produce more power than at 9000, but what's the meaning if the engine breaks down all the time? The limiter and the max power RPMs are *completely* related (not mechanically but in the way an engine is designed/tuned), and they are also related with the max safe RPM, both in a racing or road engine where both (limiter and power curve) can be tuned either from the team or from the factory.
But even so, this has nothing to do with my question. My question was about the shift light. It should be at about the max power RPMs. So in patch Y where the light comes on at the limiter, either the shift light comes on at the wrong RPMs (above max power, where you might want to rev if the next gear is too long as you suggest, but the light still has no business up there), or the limiter is too close to max power RPMs.
Wrong shift light?
I haven't seen another thread like this so I assume it bothers only me. The shift light in Y is very wrong. As it is now in almost all cars (I haven't tried the 1.0L ones TBH) the shift light is somewhere around 100-200rpm below the limiter. In the faster cars this means that it might as well be right on the limiter. Defies the whole purpose of having it, since when you see the light you've already hit the limiter. The light should come on a bit earlier, or as someone else suggested in another thread the limiter should be moved a bit upwards. No real car (street or racing) has the limiter right at the max HP point of the curve. It's usually around 400-800rpm above that.
Exactly. All racing cars (with seq gearboxes) that I've seen the inside of had a neutral button and a lever for reverse.
Never for the life of me will I understand why ppl in these forums have a problem with drifting in LFS, and even more why they feel they can tell ppl what to do, like "stop drifting in LFS it's stupid" or whatever, when the guy was merely seeking advice. What's the matter, afraid drifting makes you look bad cause you can't do it? Seriously, I'll never understand it. I'll start hijacking XRT threads telling ppl not to drive the XRT cause it's gay and should be driving the UFR instead. As meaningful as flaming drifters. BTW I'm not a drifter, but I do like the occasional powerslide once in a while - IMO someone who's into cars and doesn't enjoy at least the *occasional* powerslide is either not really into cars or there's sth wrong.
Anyway, sorry CriticalDrift don't have time to watch the vids, will see them tomorrow.
ps. respect to Gunn for the great response (which I sincerely hope will be turned into action)
Anyway, sorry CriticalDrift don't have time to watch the vids, will see them tomorrow.
ps. respect to Gunn for the great response (which I sincerely hope will be turned into action)
Me too. IMO the unlocking system is just fine, no need to change it.
All fwds are granny cars. Ok. Try driving a Saxo VTS or 106 Rallye (or some other similar fwd) with hard suspension and stiff ARBs fast and well see what you think then. The Barchetta is FWD too btw.
As for the vtec its not made for emission control. Actually there are 3 kinds of vtec (e-vtec and sth like that). The two of them are to combine economy and some performance and the top vtec exists because if they just made a 1.6 160 hp engine with long duration high lift cams and not the vtec cams, it would be dead below 5000rpm (or in the low-mid range anyways) and unusable in traffic. The vtec cams make the car able to move with not much difficulty even at low rpms.
As for the vtec its not made for emission control. Actually there are 3 kinds of vtec (e-vtec and sth like that). The two of them are to combine economy and some performance and the top vtec exists because if they just made a 1.6 160 hp engine with long duration high lift cams and not the vtec cams, it would be dead below 5000rpm (or in the low-mid range anyways) and unusable in traffic. The vtec cams make the car able to move with not much difficulty even at low rpms.
Last edited by Kosmo, .
Noone has told me anything I speak from experience, Im sorry if it sounds retarded to you. Granted Ive never been in a D1 car, but Ive been in cars and driven a few that have been set for drift. And guess what. When you go fast they get sideways. Ok, Ive heard the story about suspensions that go both grip and drift but Ive never seen one with my own eyes. Have YOU driven any of the cars you say both grip and drift? If yes ok, if not dont be so aggresive next time. Because you dont know how close to the limit were the cars in your videos when they were gripping.
As for the races, it seems to me you didnt even understand what I said. I know of drift races that position counts, Im not talking about D1 or Formula D or whatever, I said it before too. Im talking about national races. Ive seen it happen. Have YOU seen EVERY drift event held around the world and are so sure there are no such races? If yes, again, ok, if not...
As for the races, it seems to me you didnt even understand what I said. I know of drift races that position counts, Im not talking about D1 or Formula D or whatever, I said it before too. Im talking about national races. Ive seen it happen. Have YOU seen EVERY drift event held around the world and are so sure there are no such races? If yes, again, ok, if not...
Last edited by Kosmo, .
Maybe the D1 races or whatever are not but there are, 100% sure, at least national events where finishing position counts.
In my explanation up there I also say that there are drift "events" if you so like to call them, where the aim actually IS to finish first. You just do so sideways
@Gabkicks ??
@filur in drifting you dont loose grip "deliberately" in the sense that you try to get the car sideways. Drift cars are setup in such a way that the car gets sideways very easily if you go fast, so you cant really do grip driving in them even if you wanted to. So you can say that you try to go as fast as you can even in drifting. Its just that the only way to go fast in these cars is sideways, you have to go slow to keep it straight.
Ok, ill admit that specifically at bikes, I don't like the motard bikes that are sideways all the time, I prefer to see a supersport bike getting a bit sideways because of too much power or braking or whatever, while racing. But you can see that the only way to ride a motard fast is sideways. Drifting with a car is very similar (except that motard races arent won by points, but as I said there are drift races where finishing position counts). I prefer to see a F1 car getting a bit sideways because of the power compared to drifting. I really dont care or like to watch a drift race (without bashing ppl who do though, thats the point), but can you say that when youre just driving around the track, no race, no hotlap just driving you dont have fun when the car gets sideways in a corner, accidentally or not? I dont believe there is one single person here that at least once has not tried to get a car sideways intentionally. Everyobody likes at least a little sideways action. Drifting is just a lot of sideways action.
Ok, ill admit that specifically at bikes, I don't like the motard bikes that are sideways all the time, I prefer to see a supersport bike getting a bit sideways because of too much power or braking or whatever, while racing. But you can see that the only way to ride a motard fast is sideways. Drifting with a car is very similar (except that motard races arent won by points, but as I said there are drift races where finishing position counts). I prefer to see a F1 car getting a bit sideways because of the power compared to drifting. I really dont care or like to watch a drift race (without bashing ppl who do though, thats the point), but can you say that when youre just driving around the track, no race, no hotlap just driving you dont have fun when the car gets sideways in a corner, accidentally or not? I dont believe there is one single person here that at least once has not tried to get a car sideways intentionally. Everyobody likes at least a little sideways action. Drifting is just a lot of sideways action.
Last edited by Kosmo, .
I think I've made it clear as day. Its a !RACE! that ppl drift in. (race is when ppl are competing for first place? right?). So its racing. Maybe its not touring car racing or F1 racing or whatever racing but it is racing. Obviously you dont know that there are two types of drift races. There are also races where results are based on who finishes first. Anyway I dont really want to debate on that, its considered racing around the world from the ppl watching it, from the drivers and also from the ppl organising it. I dont think you or anyone else here can change that no matter what you think or say.
I dont know why Im posting in this thread since some ppl will never be... well ppl, only racists but anyway. Im not a drift or a grip fan just to set things straight, I like to drive cars fast, grip is my aim but if IRL I drive a high powered rwd I will drift it or at least powerslide it in a couple of turns just for the fun of it, and the same goes for LFS. Now... Im sorry to tell you that drifting IS racing. There ARE races held around the world IRL that ppl drift in, arent there? So there you go. On another note, dragster and NASCAR aren't considered real racing too by many ppl but beside the undeniable fact that they too (just like drifting) require a considerable amount of skill, there is also the equally undeniable fact that there is a dragstrip and an oval in LFS. So what's your problem with drifting in particular? If you don't like it or can't do it then don't. Period. It's like those ppl coming over from... I don't know Race Driver (just an example, dont have someone in particular in mind) or whatever boards just to say that LFS sucks and this game or that games kicks its ass. Pathetic. We should then go to a Pro Evolution board and start saying soccer sucks and its not a real sport etc. This discussion is like comparing apples to carpets. Get a life.
ps. I dont remember who said it, but you can drift in a fwd, yes you can be sideways around a skidpad as much as you like provided the car is setup correctly.
ps. I dont remember who said it, but you can drift in a fwd, yes you can be sideways around a skidpad as much as you like provided the car is setup correctly.
FWDs can drift, I had a video with a couple FWD cars drifting IRL in Japan I think and they drifted like RWD cars, always sideways, linking all corners, almost always opposite lock. That video was pretty amazing, changed your whole perspective on how FWD cars can be driven and what theyre capable of doing with the right setup at the right hands. Now if I could just find it...
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