Quote from Woz :

Mods is a complex issue. The main problem with modding is the hobby modder, people who do not understand optimisation, testing or usability etc.

They build a resource hog of a track/car that runs fine on the dual CPU SLI monster with more ram than you can count and wonder why it does not work anywhere else. Or they see it works fine how they have configured their game settings but looks crap for everyone else etc. There is then a constant tweak, release, tweak, release cycle after every single issue is reported until nobody has any idea which version they should run. Online becomes a mess and you spend more time downloading patches than playing.

The simple solution is as follows. When a user track or car is released it can only be used offline. LFS Players can then tag the track when they think it is ready for release. If the content gets enough tags (Say 1000 lfs players, make it high so hard to get) then it can be used online. When allowed online the track is LOCKED DOWN, no more edits or changes are allowed. People will not vote unless they think the track is ready otherwise they will be stuck with a crap track/car in the wild.

This will FORCE the noob modders to go through strick review processes and learn they can't just churn out crap, it has to work on many different systems.

Finally there should be limits on the number of pollys etc that a track or car can have so to keep the LFS system requirements valid. These limits should be set by the devs based on stats of the LFS content.

Mods certainly are complex but potentially very good. Look at games like Quake and Half Life. Both great games, but only made better by the modding that happened. Sure, all kinds of dross got released but there were enough diamonds to make it all worthwhile. Of course, I never really played online back then. I mostly played on LANs with friends, were bad mods were something to be laughed at then deleted.

Back to LFS though. What you've said appears to be pretty much what I suggested in my first post (in a round about way using far too many words). I'd never expect a track/car I made to make it into LFS because I would be a noob modder. It wouldn't stop me creating with it for fun.

In my head I imagine the inclusion of tracks to be a community driven thing. The devs would (as I'm imagining it) only be involved in actually 'unlocking' the tracks for offline use, unless they wish to be more involved.

Quote from total konfuzion :

What about someone who spends 3 months or more building a high-quality track that doesn't get accepted, not many will bother twice and most, if they decide they like the concept of building their own content will simply pick it up and take their content and themselves to another game (I left LFS for 18 months due to wanting to create my own content).

Also a good point. Not sure what to say about this one.

People having their content refused is the lesser of two evils in my opinion. There...I came up with something.

I'd hope most people would take it as reason to ensure that the work they produced was of high quality and if it were refused then it would be a reason to do it up and improve it and resubmit. Of course, I'm being optimistic on that point.

I'd still play LFS even if a track I created didn't make it into the game and like I said, I'm not against any content being used on private servers. I'm simply against 'bad' content being on public servers.

*EDIT* Of course, if a track you (the proverbial you) created didn't make it into LFS you could always release it for rFactor.

Last edited by Hockquan, Tue 27 Feb 2007, 00:25.

Quote from keiran :

The devs can't release licensed content in the first place hence the fictional content we have . The developers could have no involvement in the mods as technically they'd be making money off something they have no permission to use which is a dodgy area to get into. I feel rFactor is cutting the line very fine including officaly licensed circuits and just changing the name ever so slightly. I do wander how quickly they'd be removed at the threat of legal action. Modders can just about get away with it because they don't charge any money so it's quite hard (and pointless) to try sue them. Although I suppose a company that might have that particular series licensed could try sue on the grounds of lost proift.

Yep, didn't think of this. Presonally it wouldn't bother me too much. I'm not too concerned about racing real tracks and real cars. So long as I'm having fun I don't care if it has a real equivalent, but I definately take your point. A lot of people want real content, but if modding were to happen how I suggested it then real content would obviously not be made 'official'.

*EDIT* Thought I'd add something. 'Licensed' material released to be used in the same format as rFactor leads to the problems you described somewhere in your post (quoted below as it happens). 'Unlicensed' material released in the way I suggested would hopefully be smooth and with few or no problems. Like I said above, 'licensed' material does not bother me in the least. Quality material does.

Quote from Keiran :

Your idea is how I'd work it but it's still not going to solve the problem of destroying pick up racing. The biggest problem is when something new is released everyone rushes off and starts using it. rFactor is the perfect example, there are so many tracks available and loads of duplicates varying hugely in quality. I've only ever made it into one server where I've had no problems. The rest of the time was full of mismatches and cars appearing to be driving in the air on a different track .

This would be the main concern but so long as the content was of a gauranteed level of quality I'd ride out the initial burst of popularity. That's one of the reasons I'd like 1 or 2 new tracks/cars to be added every 6 months or so at most.

Quote from Keiran :

Yes, but you will most likely still need 3D knowledge to build the track. Doubt it's going to be as simple as making a scaletrix set if that's what you mean by `track making tools.`

Yep, I fully understand this point. My main issue is that I'd like a tool of a reasonable quality that doesn't require a loan to be able to purchase it. It's not like I think it would be easy, it's just something I'd like to play with

Last edited by Hockquan, Tue 27 Feb 2007, 00:22.

Quote from Bob Smith :

Hockquan - not a bad idea, although I don't see a reason why content should ever need to become "official". There could just be a site with an "unofficial" content database, where only work of a certain standard will be available.

I don't know if that could tie back in with LFS Files or not. Would make a lot of things easier if that gets back up and running.

I mostly thought of it that way because people seem to fear that getting a decent race will be hard if there are a lot of available tracks/cars; perhaps rightly so. A flood of new content may mean more servers with the same playerbase, hence the field being spread very thinly. I can appreciate that fear because I prefer slightly busier races by and large, though, I'm not entirely sure that fear is a reasonable one.

My idea was simply that if every few months, or whatever period was chosen, 1 or 2 tracks and/or cars were added 'officially' (meaning useable on public servers), maybe even on a trial period, then it would prevent a flood of poor tracks and cars onto the master server, as it were.

Assuming that LFS is opened to modding at some point I would not be against any content people made being available regardless of quality (if it looks bad and people rate it badly then simply ignore - of course, one thing every needs to learn about the internet is that it's often best not to trust other ppl's opinions too much). So long as that content is not allowed on public servers unless specifically premitted. I would rather that most of it was not allowed on public servers

I suspect that your databse idea and my 'official' content idea are pretty much one and the same, just using different terms. I also suspect that my use of the word official was quite sloppy! Having said that, if the 'good' tracks and cars were made 'official' (oops...being sloppy again! ) it would prevent problems with file versions differing or not having files at all - of course, an auto downloader would do the same but could increase load to servers themselves, possibly degrading play experience or making bandwith costs prohibitive for server owners. If it were to happen I'd prefer it that way and hopefully I've explained it well enough so you can see why I would! Of course, if you can see why I shouldn't then let me know

Going slightly OT, I would like to see more servers using a track rotation like on the STCC servers (others too but I can't remember names atm). IMO combo cycling should be an integral part of LFS (improvement suggestion there, dunno if it's already been suggested!).

Then in the future world of modding (that bleak, barren world, as many see it) the larger level of content wouldn't be so bad. I'd hope that if cycling was there and easy to use then many servers would use it. That way more content could be put to use per server and the larger level of content wouldn't be so bad. I should point out that I'm not saying that rotation should be enforced, merely an option.

At the end of the day I don't see why custom content can't be included in some fashion so that it does not degrade play experience. It just needs to be managed effectively.

Apologies for the long post...I'm often quite voluminous when it comes to writing things.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Just thought of a community project designed to 'okay' a mod for use. Feel free to pick holes in it, or dynamite it altogether.

1. Someone makes a mod using released, official, modding tools. In that tool, as well as making the mod, the username of 10 people must be defined (and you should discuss that with those people, as they are the testers and approvers. They should be chosen as either known specialists in a particular type of car, or just because you value their opinion over others).

2. The mod is exported from the tool in 'check mode'. This car/track cannot be used online at this point, and can only be used by the defined accounts. The nominted drivers can then use that mod offline indefinately, and are asked to allow/disallow the mod based on the results, which is an online process, and talks to a master server (where the mod is also registered by the modding tool).

3. Once 80% of the nominated testers approve the mod, it becomes available for download to everyone, and usable online once downloaded.

This would mean that crap mods don't get released, and good mods are automatically kept up to date on an LFS master server. In time it is likely we'll see the best modders teaming up with the best testers so that more and more faults/bugs are ironed out by the time of initial release. The actual mods themselves can be hosted seperately, with perhaps patches to that mod also on the master server for autodownloading (thus saving us from having to find the ellusive link to the 1.0.2.3 version when we've got 1.0.2.2 which doesn't work online as everyone else upgraded last week when the topic was fresh.

Thoughts?

I was thinking something similar. I'll outline what I thought here:

1. Allow people to run whatever cars they like single player or on private servers. Don't see why people shouldn't be able to if it's for them and friends and you need to allow testing in some way. We could even have a section on the forum for people to announce testing servers.

2. Have a website where, at an arbitrary period, a group of people (respected community members who are generally trusted to not act in a noobish manner) choose a selection of tracks/cars to be considered for addition to 'official' content. Then have the community vote (1 vote per account not including demo accounts obviously) for which track/car they want to be added.

3. Release a mini patch after each voting round containing the new content and allowing it to be hotlapped and used on public servers.


The main advantage this has over Tristan's idea is that it's less vulnerable to teams approving their own members content. Of course, large teams could still hold sway, but I know that, personally, I'd vote for the track I liked best regardless of what my team wanted me to vote for (votes are anonymous of course so teams can't enforce voting - I'd be surprised if anyone tried this anyway it'd be a very good reason to quit a team IMO).

Sorry if anyone already suggested similar mods to Tristans idea but i'm not in the mood to trawl through lot's of posts.

Personally it's a big +1 for me even if only for use with single player cos I've always wanted to make a track for a sim without having to get hold of any expensive modelling software (I'm right to remember that LFS has it's own bespoke track making tools?)

It can be very difficult passing people who are blue flagged when you yourself are fighting for poistion. To explain what I mean imagine that car A is under a blue flag being followed by two cars, B (1st place, say) and C (2nd place).

The guy in car B slows behind car A until it is safe to pass, however, the guy in car C is impatient and starts trying to force his way past the guy in car B who is waiting for a good passing opportunity. This can lead to the guy in car B having to try and force his way past car A to stop himself being put in a really bad position by the impatience of the guy in car C.

All it takes is one faster driver in a pack following a back marker to try and start forcing their way past at every corner before everyone else is on edge and starts making mistakes (this is the main point i am trying to make).

I think the main symptom of this problem is that in professional racing (where the rule originates is my point here) usually the slower drivers aren't a lot slower than the faster ones so the following car does not have to slow too much before a decent pass is available, however, in LFS the range of skill levels varies wildly so you can come across some people who really slow the race down but aren't necessarily easy to pass due to track conditions and so forth. This can breed a lot of impatience in the faster drivers. If you are really very slow and, essentially, not part of the race, maybe you should consider getting out of the way or practicing offline or on less busy servers until you do not represent so much of a hindrance.

I've noticed myself suffering from the impatience I mentioned and it always annoys me when I do, but more often than not it's because there's someone behind trying everything he can to pass me when I'm trying to wait for a safe opportunity to pass the slower car ahead. I can see why they are doing so but it's not really all that nice is it, it's just escalating the situation and usually leads to badness and the back marker being blamed.

The only time it really annoys me is when it is someone who has joined the race several laps in and is, therefore, several laps behind anyone else. When I'm blue flagged in such a situation, if I feel I may be any kind of hindrance to the following cars I do everything I can to let them pass because I am essentially hotlapping whilst waiting for the next race to start and not, in fact, part of the race at all. That's just polite.

Having said all that, you could say that the guy in car B should let car C get past them in an effort to stay clean but I really don't like caving to such bully boy tactics.

At the end of the day I like to try and race clean and I also enjoy races where I'm part of the lead pack and we have to try and get through backmarkers - they add an interesting element to the racing.

Quote from Neil777 :

I would have done that but trying to drive and keep note of peoples user name can be tricky especially with some of the more unusual ones.

From what bit of the text I was able to read I think a few people were going to report him.

Other ppl will usually report such things but if someone is wrecking then make sure you save a replay before a new race starts (hit 2 to save a multiplayer replay).

That way you can review the reply after the race to make sure they were wrecking and upload to the barricade if necessary.

Of course, replays are also useful to take a look how you're driving too...

Quote from Jakg :

http://stccu.ukct.net/Jakg.gif

Sam, i hate you

Thanks for the laff


I like the license system myself, it gives an element of progression that I appreciate, though I can see some of the potential downsides to it.

Over a long enough timescale even really bad drivers could get up to platinum...hell...even I might make it one day! If everyone that gets to Gold plus sticks on those servers then the level of competition on lower servers will decrease, then worse and worse drivers could worm their way through to higher servers. Maybe people should have to drive within a certain time of the current WR of the track to accrue points? Maybe that's how it works already?

It would add some future proofing when most of the people with some sort of clue who are currently playing have got to gold or above and don't play bronze as much. Personally I still play on the Bronze server quite a bit...I've been enjoying the XFI a lot recently. Plus my rubbishness with the RB4 and XRT makes me feel the feeling of shame...


http://stccu.ukct.net/Hockquan.gif

I'm not the greatest racer that eve lived (obviously) but it's difficult even when you have an idea of what you are doing. Yesterday I was racing on the STCC server and got into a fight with this guy for the whole race on Blackwood GP reverse. We were swapping positions at least once each lap and leaving each other enough room, at times we were both sacrificing speed through corners because that's the only way we were both going to get through them safely. Perfect. Until the last lap and the chicane before the final hairpin. I was right up behind him and he broke slightly earlier than I would have...unfortunately the little tap resulted in him going off line to the side and not having enough run off and piling into the wall. I was pretty embarrased about it and apologized instantly because it was a diamond race until that point.

He was absolutely fine about it. His words were 's**t happens'. Now thats the attitude. So many people would have instantly whipped out their 'wtf, noob!' card on that when it was an honest mistake due to slight differences in style. Usually I'd just go a bit to the side of someone to soak up any differences in braking but in that situation I couldn't and it went wrong.

I'd enjoy LFS a lot more if people had more forgiveness for mistakes and didn't start witch hunts every time someone taps them (not just against me, I get annoyed when all the chat log has in it is someone complaining). If someone wrecks my race I tend to pit in and wait for a gap in traffic and hot lap till the next one. Only if someone does something very very dumb or doesn't apologize for their mistake will I mention something and even then it's rare. IMO it can only hurt your own enjoyment of a race if you let it get to you that much. If you get involved in too many accidents on a busy server just switch to a less busy one and save yourself a heart attack.

Quote from niffer022 :

iv only been playing since xmas and i think iv read most of the racing guides on here, although im still learning and only getting 1.39sec times round blackwood, i always move over for faster drivers, and i even have "keep it clean / use your brakes" programmed into F6, because the amount of times i get some pudding ram me up the backside on the first corner is unbelievable....

there is some complete nobs, (nevermind noobs) about...

My hot tip for Blackwood GP turn 1 is to go round the outside. Most people head for the inside and carnage ensues. You can genrally pick up a few places by sticking to the outside of the corner and avoiding that carnage.

Why don't we just get Chuck to finish LFS?

It'll be complete by the end of the week (no offense devs, but you aren't Chuck Norris) and he'll of kicked all of our butts for even thinking about claiming there were any bugs in the progr.....

*slumps on to keyboard*

v b5u7v6 xcgv,'gj,l;;;................

This is Chuck Norris speaking...if any of you punks have anything bad to say about Live for Chuck Norris then I'll have kicked your a$$es already.

Thanks.

Chuck

I personally hope that this comes off. That KZ1 is pretty sexy looking...for a car anyways! The track also looks pretty good too.


Seems like a long shot, but one that's definately worth taking.

I used to hate the FO8 in pre-U. It was, as other ppl have said, a bit wild. Then again I only really played with mouse in those days...mouse+FO8 = spin. Damn difficult with a digital throttle (esp starts) and slippy tire physics. I haven't played with it much since simply because I've settled on a few other cars as faves in the interim. I have played with the FO8 a little after patch U and it's now much more accessible. The only reason I don't really play with it is that the only servers with ppl on are on KY GP or KY Oval. Two of my least favourite tracks!

I tend to agreee with a lot of what has been said so far as to why the FO8 is unpopular. FOX provides accessibility and good wheel to wheel racing and the BF1 provides power. Of course, there probably is also still a general perception in the community that the FO8 is hard to tame (as it pretty much was pre-U). The most ppl can do is race FO8 servers even if they are next to empty and hope that other ppl trickle into the servers.

Quote from marsaz :

how can people expect racing to be easy?illepall

no challange - no fun

Depends on what sort of challenge you want. I'd rather have a challenge based around competing with other ppl than the car, of course, I can also see the fun wrestling with a car and forcing it round a track fast. Generally I prefer the challenge of racing with others though.

I might go check out some FO8 action now...

Not sure if this has been asked before, but:

Would it be possible to provide some options for map placement? Even if it's just left/center/right on the top edge of the screen. I just want to be able to move it somewhere away from the chat window, really.

Cheers!

Hiya!

I'd like to take this opportunity to introduce you to my second drift layout. Yay! It's received some good feedback when I've hosted it so now I'm gonna post it. It's quite simple, and quite tight (it could be a lot tighter IMO - I widened it in places due to popular demand). So anyone who likes drifting higher powered cars might find themselves eating barrier a lot, but what's life without the occasional challenge, eh?

Here's the track:

BL3_secondDrift.lyt

And some screens:





I've had the occasional UF1 race on this track too and it works quite well, though space is at a bit of a premium when racing.

I'd love some feedback, constructive feedback would be even better!

Anyway, I hope you enjoy the track. Let me know what you think, feel free to post some replays of your mad drifting skills, etc.


Enjoy.


Hockquan

Hiya.

No screenshots, haven't really thought to take any. I'll have a look at getting some.

Does LFS have a built in screendump? Or do I have to use a stand alone one? To be honest, there's not much point in answering these questions. I'll probably have found out before I read any replies.

Sorry for lateness of the reply. I've been on holiday and busy otherwise, haven't checked back till now.

Later.

Hello all.

This is my brand spanking new and first drift layout for LFS. I made it in BL Car Park. I've been enjoying it, so I thought I'd share and see what people thought. It ain't perfect so I'm open to suggestions for tweaks and improvements. I reckon that it'll probably get a bit too narrow for some peoples tastes throughtout it's course. It's quite big too.

Here's the file:

Original Layout
BL3_firstDrift.lyt

EDIT
Here's a new version. Superfluous obejcts removed and a few minor changes elsewhere (a few more tyres, I've decided I like them).

BL3_firstDrift2.lyt

Screenshots (the quality isn't too hot on these):





Let me know what you think.

Thanks.

Last edited by Hockquan, Wed 22 Mar 2006, 20:25.