This does actually make sense. Maybe we're being too preachy. After all someone who doesn't understand it's good manners to apologise after you ruined another racer's race won't understand it any better if you argue with him forever either.
We tried to develop a code of conduct for server admins at CD. On the one hand to protect the server, but on the other also to be fair and not overly harsh.
The rules we developed were: Educate/explain, kick, kick again - ban as last resort if the culprit just doesn't get it.
This way we felt we give people who make honest mistakes a chance. Wreckers are never argued with in any case.
Funny that even with this prolonged procedure you still get whiners - how many chances do you need?
So maybe you're right, it is a lot of back and forth ... we'll definitely discuss it amongst the CD server mods.
Cheers
aceracer
R.Kolz - that is a warning message. You also know that we try to treat people fairly. You yourself have never has as much as s ingle argument with us and you never will. Because you drive fairly and behave. As I said earlier:
Only idtots need to be treated fairly, all others never need to be treated at all.
You fall into the 2nd category, like 99% of the racers who come to our servers. Nobody has to worry about getting banned if they're not being a d!ck on our servers.
If we do make a mistake, which does happen, then it helps not being a d!ck after you got banned. Dennis, you qualify for that. I think that's why your ban was made permanent. Because the way you speak here doesn't really make me want to see you on our servers ever again.
Seems like you don't want to either, so why not just go away and leave it? Some relationships are just not meant to be
First time I went to CD I got banned. I thought it was completely unfair. Went to CD forums and posted a cordial message. Ban was lifted. Now I'm a team member and server moderator. How easy things can be if you master manners!
aceracer
**EDIT**: I completely misread R.Kolz's message earlier and therefore my post above is way wrong. I never wanted to warn R.Kolz about anything, on the contrary, it should be read sth. like:
"You never have to worry about kicks or bans on our server as you always drive fairly and behave."
R.Kolz has always been a pleasure to race against and always will be.
Just wanted to make sure in case what I wrote gets misread as I obviously didn't read his message right in the first place.
Last edited by aceracer, .
"A wise man washes his hands after he pees. A wiser man doesn't pee on his hands."
I wash them before I go pee - you wanna be perfectly hygienic before you touch the junior, it's very delicate, treat it well!!
lol
aceracer
I wash them before I go pee - you wanna be perfectly hygienic before you touch the junior, it's very delicate, treat it well!!
lol
aceracer
All you have to do on server is let an admin know - as other did - and the problem got sorted. No need to add to a whine thread on how crap and evil we all are.
In any case, if my attitude was over the top, I apologise. As you saw I was on a roll ...
Constructive criticism is always welcome. I didn't read yours as such, to me it looked just like pouring oil into a flame war.
Sorry if I overreacted.
So Mysho has no respect from anyone eh? Loooooooool
Nah he's crap and a cheater, all of LFS knows it. Christ.... just let it go man, you're making a bigger prat out of yoursefl with every post.aceracer
1) AMB: if our server sucks, our league sucks, our admins suck and our drivers suck then surely you won't care about the ban.
+
2) You coming on here and posting all your whiney crap: good enough for a ban if you ask me - good riddance. You forget our servers are private servers without password. There is no god goven right to race on our servers. Just the fact that "I don't like you" is enough for a ban. "E-penis" and "4cm hard" makes me not like you.
3) Saying all our drivers are crap or can only do well on one circuit is pure ignorance with several world record holders, Mysho alone has racked up 14 (!!!) by now and we've always done well in all events we participate in. Do your research before you write such stupidities
4) It's the CD1 AS3 Skill League - meaning it will be run on CD1 AS3 - duh.
5) We have had 2 other skill leagues with changing tracks, didn't see you there though. Thank god. But maybe at least you hadn't posted ignorantly the above.
6) Minimaxman: the scrollbar had a bug, it wasn't intentional. We fixed it as soon as we could.
We have invested countless amount of time, effort and money into custom scripting our servers and maintaining them. Anything you don't like or makes you so angry that you have to go posting on how "bloddy annoyed" you are - please go to another server. I also raced with the bar, I also found it distracting, I still won every race - and didn't have to weep about it. Can't have been that bad.
Whine whine whine, I'm not happy I'm not happy - thousands of drivers are. Never get into as a little as an argument. Race and enjoiy racing. The rest of you: good bye.
Only idiots need to be "treated fairly" - everyone else never actually needs to be treated at all. Ever thought about that?
As another racer from another friendly server put it:
Zero tolerance = 99% happy drivers + 1% whiners = Small price to pay.
aceracer
+
2) You coming on here and posting all your whiney crap: good enough for a ban if you ask me - good riddance. You forget our servers are private servers without password. There is no god goven right to race on our servers. Just the fact that "I don't like you" is enough for a ban. "E-penis" and "4cm hard" makes me not like you.
3) Saying all our drivers are crap or can only do well on one circuit is pure ignorance with several world record holders, Mysho alone has racked up 14 (!!!) by now and we've always done well in all events we participate in. Do your research before you write such stupidities
4) It's the CD1 AS3 Skill League - meaning it will be run on CD1 AS3 - duh.
5) We have had 2 other skill leagues with changing tracks, didn't see you there though. Thank god. But maybe at least you hadn't posted ignorantly the above.
6) Minimaxman: the scrollbar had a bug, it wasn't intentional. We fixed it as soon as we could.
We have invested countless amount of time, effort and money into custom scripting our servers and maintaining them. Anything you don't like or makes you so angry that you have to go posting on how "bloddy annoyed" you are - please go to another server. I also raced with the bar, I also found it distracting, I still won every race - and didn't have to weep about it. Can't have been that bad.
Whine whine whine, I'm not happy I'm not happy - thousands of drivers are. Never get into as a little as an argument. Race and enjoiy racing. The rest of you: good bye.
Only idiots need to be "treated fairly" - everyone else never actually needs to be treated at all. Ever thought about that?
As another racer from another friendly server put it:
Zero tolerance = 99% happy drivers + 1% whiners = Small price to pay.
aceracer
Last edited by aceracer, .
Yeah I'll be on!
Leave your cheats at home - you won't need them against me - lol
aceracer
Ok, so after spending 2 days posting in and following this thread I decided to try and use my profiler to create a button clutch/shift up/down macro.
I couldn't do it! lmao So I guess I will continue not to cheat
Just doesn't work. press c - press x - release x - release c ... and all sorts of variations didn't get me any shifts in lfs ... sometimes when I flapped my paddles like a madman I'd get an upshift.
Had I spent that 30 mins actually practicing the circuit I'd probably have gained more time than trying to get the damn macro to work ... lol
aceracer
I couldn't do it! lmao
So I guess I will continue not to cheat Just doesn't work. press c - press x - release x - release c ... and all sorts of variations didn't get me any shifts in lfs ... sometimes when I flapped my paddles like a madman I'd get an upshift.
Had I spent that 30 mins actually practicing the circuit I'd probably have gained more time than trying to get the damn macro to work ... lol
aceracer
Since we're using analogies: Take a game of "Street Fighter".
You can do all the combos manually.
Or you can record a macro for your joystick. Hit a button and it executes the combo for you.
It will do this quicker and more reliably. However it will only do what is allowed by the game: a sequence of putton pushes.
Cheat? Fair fighter?
Same with the button clutch macro. It only allows yu what the game allows itself. But faster and more reliably.
Cheat? Fair racer?
One thing is for sure, I prefer to fight/race humans rather than machines. But they can't do anything the game doesn't allow naturally either...
aceracer
You can do all the combos manually.
Or you can record a macro for your joystick. Hit a button and it executes the combo for you.
It will do this quicker and more reliably. However it will only do what is allowed by the game: a sequence of putton pushes.
Cheat? Fair fighter?
Same with the button clutch macro. It only allows yu what the game allows itself. But faster and more reliably.
Cheat? Fair racer?
One thing is for sure, I prefer to fight/race humans rather than machines. But they can't do anything the game doesn't allow naturally either...
aceracer
Yes Boss! Done, proudly!
Indeed, when she says "ahora mismo" she means within a delay so short it can't be measured by anything available on this planet.
Then I reply: "Si, ahora mismo" - which usually means by the time I really do disconnect I'm in major trouble already ... or in an ideal scenario she fell asleep before I did and I can play all night
I wonder if that's a cheat?
It's definitely not sportsmanlike behaviour, lol [CD]aceracer
I think we have to differentiate between something that is a cheat and sth that is unsportsmanlike behaviour.
A cheat is clearly defined, it's using and illegal tool/strategy/behaviour.
Unsportsmanlike behaviour is not clearly defined, it's a greyzone and different people have different perceptions. there willnever be agreement on it.
Example: I raced against a guy the other day who got angry at me for attacking him when behind or defending my position when in front. My fastest lap was 15hundreths slower than his. He stated it was unsportsmanlike. I should just follow him and learn his line, only if my fastest lap is within 5 hundreths I should dare race him.
This was his understanding of fairness. Mine was that a race is a race, and if I'm slower but in front then I can defend m position (fairly of course).
We will never agree on this.
The same goes for the button "trick". It's not illegal as it's in the game - it may be considered unfair, that depends on your perception of what is fair. There will never be any agreement on this.
I read a very interesting article on moral and ethics in different cultures. Since Spanish drivers were singled out here, maybe an attempt to at least propose an explanation. Spainsh and Italian cultures have a different perception of what is really cheating to German or Swedish cultures. From a catholic cultural background which has dominated these countries for centuries the difference between what "appears to be" and what "is" is seen in a much more relaxed way. Why northern and more protestant cultures more strictly apply one to the other.
I say this without any negative connotation whatsoever! I am married to a spanish woman and I live in Spain although I am German. And I love being here and have the highest respect for how people here live their lives!
But just a few examples:
A spanish person will say "ahora mismo" (straight away, right now) and it can happen hours later, but no-one would seriously remind them of the fact that they promised it hours ago. What is said and what is done is not seen with the same strictness as it would be in Germany, where if someone says "right now" it is "right now".
It is normal for a Spanish or Italian person to get the most out of whatever they can by not necessarily applying all the rules 100% as intended. This does not make them dishonest, it's a different interpretation of how things should work. No-one in Italy declares all their taxes and 30% of civil servants in Italy never show up for work. This does not make them less honest or less respectable, it's just how things work there.
At the Tour de France, Italian and Spanish teams have a completely different interpretation of what is doping and what is not. For them pushing what's allowed to the limit is self understood and has no negative connotations. The press celebrates the great victories of Pantani (caught doping) and Contador (not caught) while German press just presents them as junkies.
There are many many more examples.
So unless something is entirely removed from the game there will always be differences on what is fair and what is not and there will not be any agreement on it. This does not make one person more "right" and another more "wrong" - we may not agree with them, but we use our own values to judge another persons, which may be quite different for the above mentioned reasons.
Therefore we need a strictly regulated environment to compete in. And this environment is what in the game and what's not. I for one do not think it's cool to use button clutch and I won't do it (G25) - I do however think it should be removed from the game if your wheel/joystick/whatever has the available axes.
Removing it from the game eliminates the greyzone and margin of interpretation - and makes the 15 mins I spent typing this completely useless - lol
aceracer
A cheat is clearly defined, it's using and illegal tool/strategy/behaviour.
Unsportsmanlike behaviour is not clearly defined, it's a greyzone and different people have different perceptions. there willnever be agreement on it.
Example: I raced against a guy the other day who got angry at me for attacking him when behind or defending my position when in front. My fastest lap was 15hundreths slower than his. He stated it was unsportsmanlike. I should just follow him and learn his line, only if my fastest lap is within 5 hundreths I should dare race him.
This was his understanding of fairness. Mine was that a race is a race, and if I'm slower but in front then I can defend m position (fairly of course).
We will never agree on this.
The same goes for the button "trick". It's not illegal as it's in the game - it may be considered unfair, that depends on your perception of what is fair. There will never be any agreement on this.
I read a very interesting article on moral and ethics in different cultures. Since Spanish drivers were singled out here, maybe an attempt to at least propose an explanation. Spainsh and Italian cultures have a different perception of what is really cheating to German or Swedish cultures. From a catholic cultural background which has dominated these countries for centuries the difference between what "appears to be" and what "is" is seen in a much more relaxed way. Why northern and more protestant cultures more strictly apply one to the other.
I say this without any negative connotation whatsoever! I am married to a spanish woman and I live in Spain although I am German. And I love being here and have the highest respect for how people here live their lives!
But just a few examples:
A spanish person will say "ahora mismo" (straight away, right now) and it can happen hours later, but no-one would seriously remind them of the fact that they promised it hours ago. What is said and what is done is not seen with the same strictness as it would be in Germany, where if someone says "right now" it is "right now".
It is normal for a Spanish or Italian person to get the most out of whatever they can by not necessarily applying all the rules 100% as intended. This does not make them dishonest, it's a different interpretation of how things should work. No-one in Italy declares all their taxes and 30% of civil servants in Italy never show up for work. This does not make them less honest or less respectable, it's just how things work there.
At the Tour de France, Italian and Spanish teams have a completely different interpretation of what is doping and what is not. For them pushing what's allowed to the limit is self understood and has no negative connotations. The press celebrates the great victories of Pantani (caught doping) and Contador (not caught) while German press just presents them as junkies.
There are many many more examples.
So unless something is entirely removed from the game there will always be differences on what is fair and what is not and there will not be any agreement on it. This does not make one person more "right" and another more "wrong" - we may not agree with them, but we use our own values to judge another persons, which may be quite different for the above mentioned reasons.
Therefore we need a strictly regulated environment to compete in. And this environment is what in the game and what's not. I for one do not think it's cool to use button clutch and I won't do it (G25) - I do however think it should be removed from the game if your wheel/joystick/whatever has the available axes.
Removing it from the game eliminates the greyzone and margin of interpretation - and makes the 15 mins I spent typing this completely useless - lol
aceracer
Thanks for that KM
Actually I noticed that on my stereo it's a lot better than with the headphones. The headphones seem to distort more so the tire screech loses presence. On the stereo I can here it a lot better and it works just fine.
I guess from now on you'll be able to tell what sound system I use by looking at my laptimes, lol.
Actually after more than 3000 laps on the combo I know when I'm on the limit in any case, even when playing without any sound at all. It's almost like sleepwalking ... or sleepdriving
Still, the sound is a nice indicator when you lose your concentration a little, it's a nice wakeup call
Cheers
aceracer
Actually I noticed that on my stereo it's a lot better than with the headphones. The headphones seem to distort more so the tire screech loses presence. On the stereo I can here it a lot better and it works just fine.
I guess from now on you'll be able to tell what sound system I use by looking at my laptimes, lol.
Actually after more than 3000 laps on the combo I know when I'm on the limit in any case, even when playing without any sound at all. It's almost like sleepwalking ... or sleepdriving
Still, the sound is a nice indicator when you lose your concentration a little, it's a nice wakeup call
Cheers
aceracer
Hey I'm a simmer and have been for the last 15 years, I have just about every driving game there is and about 6 different wheels in my cupboard.
I drive drive competitive times in F1 sims. I race competitively in GT sims. I catch slides in Richard Burns Rally.
I'm not the fastest, never will be, but I'm decent. And you know what:
I wouldn't have a hope in hell doing that in a real car. I wouldn't catch a single slide in a WRC Subaru, I would be 30 secs of the pace in an F1 car (if I could get it out of the pitlane) and I wouldn't even know what to do with a GTR car.
So all this superhardcore sim argument is somewhat misleading. As much sim and as much hardcore and as much realistic as it gets: It still has nothing to do with real life. Nowhere near.
So, if I actually listen to the tire noise, which I can also in a real car, I'm not cheating, I'm not less "sim" or whatever. It's a completely pointless argument. I'm sitting in an office in front of my PC with a plastic wheel ... I think sometimes people forget that when talking about realism:
No matter how "realistic" you think you have it, it's still absolutely nothing to do with real life.
Just got off Conedodgers. Caught a spin at 175 mph and drifted through the entire turn in 4th ... I would have killed myself had that happened to me in a real car ... so let's go easy on what is "real" and what not.
aceracer
I drive drive competitive times in F1 sims. I race competitively in GT sims. I catch slides in Richard Burns Rally.
I'm not the fastest, never will be, but I'm decent. And you know what:
I wouldn't have a hope in hell doing that in a real car. I wouldn't catch a single slide in a WRC Subaru, I would be 30 secs of the pace in an F1 car (if I could get it out of the pitlane) and I wouldn't even know what to do with a GTR car.
So all this superhardcore sim argument is somewhat misleading. As much sim and as much hardcore and as much realistic as it gets: It still has nothing to do with real life. Nowhere near.
So, if I actually listen to the tire noise, which I can also in a real car, I'm not cheating, I'm not less "sim" or whatever. It's a completely pointless argument. I'm sitting in an office in front of my PC with a plastic wheel ... I think sometimes people forget that when talking about realism:
No matter how "realistic" you think you have it, it's still absolutely nothing to do with real life.
Just got off Conedodgers. Caught a spin at 175 mph and drifted through the entire turn in 4th ... I would have killed myself had that happened to me in a real car ... so let's go easy on what is "real" and what not.
aceracer
I use all the cues, you don't get low 41s on AS national if you don't. However tire noise is one of them. I've used tire noise since Geoff Crammonds GP1 15 years ago. Real cars also offer tire noise, it¡s not cheating, that's ridiculous, it's using what the game (and what the real world) gives you.
I think this has been the most absurdest form of accusation of being a cheater I have ever heard.
aceracer
I think this has been the most absurdest form of accusation of being a cheater I have ever heard.
aceracer
Just downloaded and will test now, thanks gee See you on the track!
See you on the track!New patch - new sound - where's my slide sound?
Oh no! Nice new engine sound in the latest patch ... but: Where's my slide sound? I'm talking about the FZR here, haven't tried other cars yet...
Before it was really dominant and I rely heavily on it to determine my grip levels, aggressiveness in corner, tire usage on "attack laps" or "cruise laps".
After installing the patch even downngrading engine boost to zero and slide boost to one I still can only hear me slide when completely losing it. Often even locked brakes can't be heard, I can only determine that I locked up if I have time to look in the mirror and see the smoke.
This is really hurting my performance - anyone have the same problem?
Can I uninstall the patch?
Can I get the old sounds back?
Is the FZR the only car with this problem now or is this a global setting?
Anyone else feeling (hearing) the same?
What to do?
Man, and I just got into a nice and fairly quick race rythm, also entered into the 1:41.20s on AS Natrional, new pb, heheheh ... but I'm not going to repeat it with this lack of slide sound
I want my tires to squeaaaal! Well, at least I want to hear whether they are or not!!
Thanks for any pointers!
aceracer
Before it was really dominant and I rely heavily on it to determine my grip levels, aggressiveness in corner, tire usage on "attack laps" or "cruise laps".
After installing the patch even downngrading engine boost to zero and slide boost to one I still can only hear me slide when completely losing it. Often even locked brakes can't be heard, I can only determine that I locked up if I have time to look in the mirror and see the smoke.
This is really hurting my performance - anyone have the same problem?
Can I uninstall the patch?
Can I get the old sounds back?
Is the FZR the only car with this problem now or is this a global setting?
Anyone else feeling (hearing) the same?
What to do?
Man, and I just got into a nice and fairly quick race rythm, also entered into the 1:41.20s on AS Natrional, new pb, heheheh ... but I'm not going to repeat it with this lack of slide sound
I want my tires to squeaaaal! Well, at least I want to hear whether they are or not!!
Thanks for any pointers!
aceracer
Ok, I agree with many of the things said above. And yes, it's just a game, or just a sim But some are more "realistic" than others, as in representing car behaviour more or less like it would in real life.
However, those who say that race drivers have no clue: The only person who know what a BMW M3 GTR does when you hurl it into the first corner at Barcelona downshifting from 6th to 2nd is the guy who does it: the pilot.
None of the people on this board, me included, will even know what it feels like. Will ever know how the car twitches, when it feels loose, when it gains drive out of the corner etc. The only person who knows this is the pilot who¡s done this in real life.
So we can all talk all day about which sim is best. And you can say all day long that the last person you would ask is the pilot cos he has no clues about sims. Yet he's the only one who can tell you: Yes, this is more or less like the car bahaves in real life, cos he's the only one who knows.
And yes, the engineers can look at the datasheets and replicate everything 1''% and get the same data analysis out of the sim as out of the real life sheets .. but if the pilot says: That's not how it reacted two weeks ago at the track then you can develop and engineer all year long: It's not how it behaves, fullstop.
As for LFS and real cars: It's a licensing issue, if you look at the cars, many have a vey close resemblance with real life counterparts, you would just have to stick the company logo on it. And they handle how we would expect these cars to handle. So they are in fact simulations of real cars, they just don't have the brand name stuck all over it.
And personally I think that's just fine, they race great and they feel great .. but then, what do I nkow, I've never raced anything but karts in my life...
aceracer
But some are more "realistic" than others, as in representing car behaviour more or less like it would in real life.However, those who say that race drivers have no clue: The only person who know what a BMW M3 GTR does when you hurl it into the first corner at Barcelona downshifting from 6th to 2nd is the guy who does it: the pilot.
None of the people on this board, me included, will even know what it feels like. Will ever know how the car twitches, when it feels loose, when it gains drive out of the corner etc. The only person who knows this is the pilot who¡s done this in real life.
So we can all talk all day about which sim is best. And you can say all day long that the last person you would ask is the pilot cos he has no clues about sims. Yet he's the only one who can tell you: Yes, this is more or less like the car bahaves in real life, cos he's the only one who knows.
And yes, the engineers can look at the datasheets and replicate everything 1''% and get the same data analysis out of the sim as out of the real life sheets .. but if the pilot says: That's not how it reacted two weeks ago at the track then you can develop and engineer all year long: It's not how it behaves, fullstop.
As for LFS and real cars: It's a licensing issue, if you look at the cars, many have a vey close resemblance with real life counterparts, you would just have to stick the company logo on it. And they handle how we would expect these cars to handle. So they are in fact simulations of real cars, they just don't have the brand name stuck all over it.
And personally I think that's just fine, they race great and they feel great .. but then, what do I nkow, I've never raced anything but karts in my life...
aceracer
Hmm, I can agree that there are tings wrong and that there is rubbish out there. However look at simracing.cz. These uys are a group of hardcore sim fans and developers. They have spent months working with the real teams and drivers of BMW Challenge and Skoda Cup. Countless hours of many many talented individuals have gone ito these mods. This has nothing to do with 14 year old playing with numbers, this is almost at professional level with endless dedication, a labout of love.
Now to say that this and comparable stuff is all simply wrong and rubbish and worthless I find somewhat arrogant. I would never dare say that I understand more about how a car should behave than these people and I think this applies to 99% of the people on these boards.
So maybe there is too much hype and average mods get rave ratings. This does not mean that there is some outstanding work being done by a lot of people who understand leagues more about car bahviour than most people here... after all most of us are just gamers sitting in front of our Pcs...
aceracer
Now to say that this and comparable stuff is all simply wrong and rubbish and worthless I find somewhat arrogant. I would never dare say that I understand more about how a car should behave than these people and I think this applies to 99% of the people on these boards.
So maybe there is too much hype and average mods get rave ratings. This does not mean that there is some outstanding work being done by a lot of people who understand leagues more about car bahviour than most people here... after all most of us are just gamers sitting in front of our Pcs...
aceracer
Thanks BBO, that was helpful indeed and makes sense.
Just one disagreement: Even if there is a lot of rubbish mods,the ones which are great are briliant and personally I have a great number of those. To name but a few: 1979 GP Season, Porsche Carrera Cup, Meganes, Historic Rally Cars, BMW M3 GTR, Lamgorhini Gallardo, Zonda, Aussie V8s, and then the posssibility to race them on any track imaginable, many of which are absolutely stunning (Nordschleife). This really does make my race pilot heart beat faster...
aceracer
Just one disagreement: Even if there is a lot of rubbish mods,the ones which are great are briliant and personally I have a great number of those. To name but a few: 1979 GP Season, Porsche Carrera Cup, Meganes, Historic Rally Cars, BMW M3 GTR, Lamgorhini Gallardo, Zonda, Aussie V8s, and then the posssibility to race them on any track imaginable, many of which are absolutely stunning (Nordschleife). This really does make my race pilot heart beat faster...
aceracer
Thanks Mauro (por el apollo and thanks George for your comments, this is the sort of feedback I'm looking for. I don't mind my arguments being slammed, but slammed by knowledgeable counter arguments.
Anyone who is bored by my post,feel free not to read
This is an account of my experiences with both games. I've written up stuff I've not seen in other posts as well as stuff other people have said. I'm just looking for what other people's experienmces are with the issues raised.
Whether some find my post relevant or not I don't care about. I care about what those who do find it relevant have to say
So thanks for any more comments on my thoughts
aceracer
and thanks George for your comments, this is the sort of feedback I'm looking for. I don't mind my arguments being slammed, but slammed by knowledgeable counter arguments.Anyone who is bored by my post,feel free not to read
This is an account of my experiences with both games. I've written up stuff I've not seen in other posts as well as stuff other people have said. I'm just looking for what other people's experienmces are with the issues raised.
Whether some find my post relevant or not I don't care about. I care about what those who do find it relevant have to say
So thanks for any more comments on my thoughts
aceracer
LFS and rFactor, why are we so blessed? (long)
No, this is not another flame war, no I don't want to start the same old tired discussion again. Let me make this clear from the start: I own both rFactor and LFS, licensed copies, and I think they are both stunning. And I wouldn't want to be without either of them. Each one does a lot of things right. Actually I believe that if we take the best of the two and iron out the very few things both are not so good at we will have the perfect racing sim with no need to look anywhere else again. Why are we so blessed?
So this thread is what I "like" about both of these games and why I get frustrated about little details with both of them (never enough not to think how extremely good they both are). I hope the resulting conversation can slo help the devs of both games make them better. I will post this on both LFS and rFactor boards.
1) the phyisics model and realism, the most important aspect of any racing sim.
This is where opinions differ the most and where most discussions start, where fans of either game knock each other. My opinion: Both are incredibly good, both have some obvious shortcomings. But let me make this very clear: None are so incorrect that even a hardcore supporter of either camp could resonably say the other is so much worse.
Lets start with rFactor which seems to get most of the bashing from LFS fans here: Yes, there are some serious "snap oversteer" and "driftability" questions here. I will get into a little more detail below.
However there are a number of mods which have been created with the datasheets of real world racing teams, have been test driven by the pilots themselves. These pilots affirm that the experience is as close and as "real" as it gets if racing in front of your PC. They affirm that they have learnt things in the sim which they could take to the track and implement in real life in terms of handling on a particular track and car setup. Now this is an amazing testament for "mods" created by dedicated race fans. Incredible stuff! And it also means that the physics engine and realism can't be that far off! On the contrary, spot on in many cases.
I think much of the criticism come from the lack of driftability of touring cars in rFactor. I agree, it's driven me nut's too, as I tried to create setups for my cars which allow for "naturally controllable drifts" and I have found it extremely difficult. It is possible, but not as "natural" as it should be. LFS does an immense job here and drifting around with the RWD cars is awesome fun!
Which does not mean it's necessarily more realistic, at least not for all cars! If you look at many highly tuned modern day race cars, especially F1 and high end touring car racers, you will notice that they are not driven with any visible oversteer. Bar very few instances (I remember David Coulthard (of all people, lol) coming out of the last chicane at Monza sideways and catching the drift) modern race cars have "snap oversteer". They are sucked to the ground by aerodynamics to such an extent that it creates the same effect like these rubbery suction heads: Either they are sucked firmly to the surface (in this case the road) or once they lose adherence, they're gone. And there's no way to recover your rear end once it's stepped out. Now I've heard many racing drivers make this analogy. And this to the best of my knowledge is correctly simulated in rFactor.
However, and I fully agree with the LFS crowd here, there is a major problem with snap oversteer in cars which should not have it. And LFS simulates this brilliantly. Take a BMW M3 for example, rear wheel drive, fairly soft setup compared to a throroughbread race car, yet a drift is really difficult to catch. Comparable cars in LFS are a joy to throw around and their behaviour is simulated more accurately.
Having said that, I am catching drifts with high powered race cars in LFS which I would have no hope in catching in a real car, so maybe LFS is even too forgiving here. Fun, yes, completely realistic, maybe not. Many say it is to do with the "grip curve" of the tyre model. It is too steep in rFactor so that the line between recovery and losing the rear is too fine. Which to me makes sense, and would then also mean that it's tweakable in both sims.
On the other hand I find that in some cases the handling in rFactor is more direct, more aggressive and faster. I find it sometimes gives me more immersion in the game as I get a lot more stressed and have to make a lot more corrections at the wheel while LFS often feels somewhat slower and limousine-like. I often feel faster in rFactor and more on the edge of the limits... whether it's then more realistic or not I hoestly cannot say.
But then we sit in front of our PCs with plastic steering wheels which (in most cases) have at most a 240º rotation, this surely must affect the handling of the cars in such a way that we really cannot tell how accurate or not the simulation in any particular case is. We'll have to trust real life race pilots, and they detect and incredible amount of accuracy in both sims but also some flaws, in both!
Conclusion: Both amazing, both as accurate as it gets, LFS somewhat less frustrating in some instances and more fun while rFactor sometimes thrills me more and gives me sweatier palms (in some cases also of fruntration).
2) Netplay: Both sims have amazing netcode. I have often read that LFS has the best netcode in the industry. Frankly, I haven't experienced this. I think what is meant is that LFS can be played fine with a 56k modem, while probably no other sim can. And this really is amazing!
I do have to say however, on my ADSL line rFactor plays more cleanly. The first time I connected I couldn't believe it: There was no difference whatsoever between offline and online. No jitter, no cars jumping about, no back and forth, nothing. As if they were bots. I was amazed, I'd never seen anything like it. And I still believe it's the smoothest netplay I've ever experienced in any game. I'm not sure how they do it, but ping does not seem to matter. I have a guy in front of me with ping 180 and I sit right on his bumper and nothing happens, we both run along smoothly ... for laps ... simply incredible! In LFS I've had my share of lag crashes.
In LFS you may be able to play with a modem, but I get quite a few jitters, lag collisions, cars jumping about or cars disappearing.
Now having said that, I play a LOT more LFS online racing than rFactor (because of issues I will address later in this post) but frankly, on a broadband connection I've never had a better experience.
3) Multiplayer: I play most of my online racing with LFS. Why? It's simply so much fun, competitve, varied and there's a good game on most times a day. So what is it in rFactor that keeps my away if in general I enjoy the game so much?
I'm not sure what rFactor hosts are thinking when they specify 1 hour practice session!! And what people are thinking who never vote to advance to the next session. Bottom line: In rFactor you actually never get to race other people! All you ever do is sit in practice session lapping on your own and wait for the time to pass. If you're lucky in 1 hour you get to have two races. And then at the first corner some bum takes you out, you go through another half hour practise session until the next race where you get taken out again. How stupid is that?? I really don't understand it.
In LFS you connect and all you ever do is race! In an hour I do between 5 - 10 races depending on circuit and number of laps. And when the race ends people vote for the next to start. And if they don't it will start again automatically in no time (in most cases)
Now I'm not even against practice and qualifying, on the cotrary, I enjoy it. But please: 1 hour practice, another 30 mins quali, for a five lap race? That's just silly. And it is the main reason why I do not play rFactor online anymore at all. And I do 90% of my racing online, which is now LFS. I want to race, not sit around and look at my pitboard. (and believe me, this is not a rant after a bad night I had, I have played rFactor online extensively for weeks, and it was always the same, on many many servers)
4) Connecting to a race: There has to be a way to implement what's best from both games here, come on. In rFactor I can't connect to a server when a race is on. So from the few populated servers, half get eliminated because the race is on. Silly! Let me at least connect, go to the pits, set up my car and I'll be ready when the next race (erh, practise session) starts! But don't shut people out.
In LFS it's the other extreme: People connect straight into races. So while you're on the lead lap, some monkey who just joined rolls out of the pits and straight into your racing line. Or is on cold tyres and doesn't move over. That's also silly! There has to be a compromise here.
In rFactor I feel much more immersed in the race weekend. I see my car in the pits and when I'm done I drive out of the pits. I always feel either on the track or in the pits. In LFS there first few times I had no idea where I was. So my car is in the pits but I can't actually do anything here. Ah, I have to hit escape first. But then I'm taken completely out of the context. When I connect I can "join" or go to the "garage". No, I should join and land right in the garage, and then when I'm ready drive out of the garage. And when I joined a race I didn't even know I was in the race.
Where do I see whtehr I'm in practice, which track I'm at, how many laps the race will be? I have no info screen in my pits! Or at least I haven't been able to find it
5) Pitboard/Damage/Repair
In LFS I never know what state my car is in. What's broken and should I repair it during the pitstop? In rFactor I can consult this at any time during the race and take these decisions. Actually the whole flipping through the LCD screen with all info on race, standings and state of your car I really enjoy in rFactor and miss in LFS.
6) How come in LFS my car flies 30 feet into the air and spins 45 times before landing as a complete wreck when I hit some barriers at a given angle at 30 mph? There must be something wrong there, no need to be a real life pilot to know that
7) Force Feedback:
Many people knock rFactor FF for being simply bad and inaccurate. Homestly I can't really argue with that. I find both rFactor and LFS perfectly driveable. What I do notice is thast LFS seems much smoother. For example when I cross tramlines on some tracks I it, and in rFactor my wheel would rattle and shake. Same with some rumble strips. And maybe LFS gives more accurate information about what your ar really does, even if in this smoother maner. I find I can drive fine with both and I know there are people with more detailed knowledge about this. So I'll stop here with my non expert opinions on this topic
8) Load times
Biiig plus for LFS: This is also what I also enjoyed so much about Quake 3. You are in there almost immediately. This saved me literally hours when for example configuring my steering wheel. I spent hours on this alone with rFactor while I breezed through it in LFS.
When I get the itch to race I'm connected and in the pits before I had time to lock my wheel to the desk. I love that!
9) Menus/Guis
Big minus for both: Frankly I found both confusing at the start but as time goes by I guess you get used to their oddities. But I can imagine beginners being thrown out by both, lol
10) Content/Modability
I think ISI have done a very smart thing here. No real racer can tell me that it's not absolutely thrilling to take the 1979 F1 Ferrari of Gilles Villeneuve and throw it around the legenday Nordschleife. It makes every race fans heart beat higher, no matter how much of a FFS fanboy you are. Now look at all the cars and tracks available for rFactor, or look at just the ones which are absolutely stunning. More than I will ever have the free time to try! And simply mind blowing.
Opening their source code to the mod community has added neverending quality content to this sim.
I do not undertsand why the LFS devs do not want to grant this to their audience. It takes nothing away from how brilliant LFS is, but it does mean that I cannot do without rFactor, that's for sure. I do not want to miss out on this...
11) AI/Offline racing
I'm not too bothered about this, I do most of my racing online and this review is about the multiplayer games. However a quick mention: I have had some enjoyable races with some of the rFactor cars on some tracks, not too shabby at all. Abismal on other tracks with different cars,so it's a bit hit and miss. Choose your mod and difficulty level right and you can have some fun.
LFS is a multiplayer game. Fullstop. The AI is not worthy to be called that. However no-one cares as no-one is into LFS to play offline...
Conclusion:
Right, this has been long, I'll keep this short. I love both. I would cry tears of joy if I had an rFactor with the playability, online gaming drift physics of LFS. I would be similarly emotional about a LFS with as much top quality content in terms of tracks and cars as rFactor.
For now, I'll take the best of both worlds in the hope that some day both combine.
aceracer
So this thread is what I "like" about both of these games and why I get frustrated about little details with both of them (never enough not to think how extremely good they both are). I hope the resulting conversation can slo help the devs of both games make them better. I will post this on both LFS and rFactor boards.
1) the phyisics model and realism, the most important aspect of any racing sim.
This is where opinions differ the most and where most discussions start, where fans of either game knock each other. My opinion: Both are incredibly good, both have some obvious shortcomings. But let me make this very clear: None are so incorrect that even a hardcore supporter of either camp could resonably say the other is so much worse.
Lets start with rFactor which seems to get most of the bashing from LFS fans here: Yes, there are some serious "snap oversteer" and "driftability" questions here. I will get into a little more detail below.
However there are a number of mods which have been created with the datasheets of real world racing teams, have been test driven by the pilots themselves. These pilots affirm that the experience is as close and as "real" as it gets if racing in front of your PC. They affirm that they have learnt things in the sim which they could take to the track and implement in real life in terms of handling on a particular track and car setup. Now this is an amazing testament for "mods" created by dedicated race fans. Incredible stuff! And it also means that the physics engine and realism can't be that far off! On the contrary, spot on in many cases.
I think much of the criticism come from the lack of driftability of touring cars in rFactor. I agree, it's driven me nut's too, as I tried to create setups for my cars which allow for "naturally controllable drifts" and I have found it extremely difficult. It is possible, but not as "natural" as it should be. LFS does an immense job here and drifting around with the RWD cars is awesome fun!
Which does not mean it's necessarily more realistic, at least not for all cars! If you look at many highly tuned modern day race cars, especially F1 and high end touring car racers, you will notice that they are not driven with any visible oversteer. Bar very few instances (I remember David Coulthard (of all people, lol) coming out of the last chicane at Monza sideways and catching the drift) modern race cars have "snap oversteer". They are sucked to the ground by aerodynamics to such an extent that it creates the same effect like these rubbery suction heads: Either they are sucked firmly to the surface (in this case the road) or once they lose adherence, they're gone. And there's no way to recover your rear end once it's stepped out. Now I've heard many racing drivers make this analogy. And this to the best of my knowledge is correctly simulated in rFactor.
However, and I fully agree with the LFS crowd here, there is a major problem with snap oversteer in cars which should not have it. And LFS simulates this brilliantly. Take a BMW M3 for example, rear wheel drive, fairly soft setup compared to a throroughbread race car, yet a drift is really difficult to catch. Comparable cars in LFS are a joy to throw around and their behaviour is simulated more accurately.
Having said that, I am catching drifts with high powered race cars in LFS which I would have no hope in catching in a real car, so maybe LFS is even too forgiving here. Fun, yes, completely realistic, maybe not. Many say it is to do with the "grip curve" of the tyre model. It is too steep in rFactor so that the line between recovery and losing the rear is too fine. Which to me makes sense, and would then also mean that it's tweakable in both sims.
On the other hand I find that in some cases the handling in rFactor is more direct, more aggressive and faster. I find it sometimes gives me more immersion in the game as I get a lot more stressed and have to make a lot more corrections at the wheel while LFS often feels somewhat slower and limousine-like. I often feel faster in rFactor and more on the edge of the limits... whether it's then more realistic or not I hoestly cannot say.
But then we sit in front of our PCs with plastic steering wheels which (in most cases) have at most a 240º rotation, this surely must affect the handling of the cars in such a way that we really cannot tell how accurate or not the simulation in any particular case is. We'll have to trust real life race pilots, and they detect and incredible amount of accuracy in both sims but also some flaws, in both!
Conclusion: Both amazing, both as accurate as it gets, LFS somewhat less frustrating in some instances and more fun while rFactor sometimes thrills me more and gives me sweatier palms (in some cases also of fruntration).
2) Netplay: Both sims have amazing netcode. I have often read that LFS has the best netcode in the industry. Frankly, I haven't experienced this. I think what is meant is that LFS can be played fine with a 56k modem, while probably no other sim can. And this really is amazing!
I do have to say however, on my ADSL line rFactor plays more cleanly. The first time I connected I couldn't believe it: There was no difference whatsoever between offline and online. No jitter, no cars jumping about, no back and forth, nothing. As if they were bots. I was amazed, I'd never seen anything like it. And I still believe it's the smoothest netplay I've ever experienced in any game. I'm not sure how they do it, but ping does not seem to matter. I have a guy in front of me with ping 180 and I sit right on his bumper and nothing happens, we both run along smoothly ... for laps ... simply incredible! In LFS I've had my share of lag crashes.
In LFS you may be able to play with a modem, but I get quite a few jitters, lag collisions, cars jumping about or cars disappearing.
Now having said that, I play a LOT more LFS online racing than rFactor (because of issues I will address later in this post) but frankly, on a broadband connection I've never had a better experience.
3) Multiplayer: I play most of my online racing with LFS. Why? It's simply so much fun, competitve, varied and there's a good game on most times a day. So what is it in rFactor that keeps my away if in general I enjoy the game so much?
I'm not sure what rFactor hosts are thinking when they specify 1 hour practice session!! And what people are thinking who never vote to advance to the next session. Bottom line: In rFactor you actually never get to race other people! All you ever do is sit in practice session lapping on your own and wait for the time to pass. If you're lucky in 1 hour you get to have two races. And then at the first corner some bum takes you out, you go through another half hour practise session until the next race where you get taken out again. How stupid is that?? I really don't understand it.
In LFS you connect and all you ever do is race! In an hour I do between 5 - 10 races depending on circuit and number of laps. And when the race ends people vote for the next to start. And if they don't it will start again automatically in no time (in most cases)
Now I'm not even against practice and qualifying, on the cotrary, I enjoy it. But please: 1 hour practice, another 30 mins quali, for a five lap race? That's just silly. And it is the main reason why I do not play rFactor online anymore at all. And I do 90% of my racing online, which is now LFS. I want to race, not sit around and look at my pitboard. (and believe me, this is not a rant after a bad night I had, I have played rFactor online extensively for weeks, and it was always the same, on many many servers)
4) Connecting to a race: There has to be a way to implement what's best from both games here, come on. In rFactor I can't connect to a server when a race is on. So from the few populated servers, half get eliminated because the race is on. Silly! Let me at least connect, go to the pits, set up my car and I'll be ready when the next race (erh, practise session) starts! But don't shut people out.
In LFS it's the other extreme: People connect straight into races. So while you're on the lead lap, some monkey who just joined rolls out of the pits and straight into your racing line. Or is on cold tyres and doesn't move over. That's also silly! There has to be a compromise here.
In rFactor I feel much more immersed in the race weekend. I see my car in the pits and when I'm done I drive out of the pits. I always feel either on the track or in the pits. In LFS there first few times I had no idea where I was. So my car is in the pits but I can't actually do anything here. Ah, I have to hit escape first. But then I'm taken completely out of the context. When I connect I can "join" or go to the "garage". No, I should join and land right in the garage, and then when I'm ready drive out of the garage. And when I joined a race I didn't even know I was in the race.
Where do I see whtehr I'm in practice, which track I'm at, how many laps the race will be? I have no info screen in my pits! Or at least I haven't been able to find it
5) Pitboard/Damage/Repair
In LFS I never know what state my car is in. What's broken and should I repair it during the pitstop? In rFactor I can consult this at any time during the race and take these decisions. Actually the whole flipping through the LCD screen with all info on race, standings and state of your car I really enjoy in rFactor and miss in LFS.
6) How come in LFS my car flies 30 feet into the air and spins 45 times before landing as a complete wreck when I hit some barriers at a given angle at 30 mph? There must be something wrong there, no need to be a real life pilot to know that
7) Force Feedback:
Many people knock rFactor FF for being simply bad and inaccurate. Homestly I can't really argue with that. I find both rFactor and LFS perfectly driveable. What I do notice is thast LFS seems much smoother. For example when I cross tramlines on some tracks I it, and in rFactor my wheel would rattle and shake. Same with some rumble strips. And maybe LFS gives more accurate information about what your ar really does, even if in this smoother maner. I find I can drive fine with both and I know there are people with more detailed knowledge about this. So I'll stop here with my non expert opinions on this topic
8) Load times
Biiig plus for LFS: This is also what I also enjoyed so much about Quake 3. You are in there almost immediately. This saved me literally hours when for example configuring my steering wheel. I spent hours on this alone with rFactor while I breezed through it in LFS.
When I get the itch to race I'm connected and in the pits before I had time to lock my wheel to the desk. I love that!
9) Menus/Guis
Big minus for both: Frankly I found both confusing at the start but as time goes by I guess you get used to their oddities. But I can imagine beginners being thrown out by both, lol
10) Content/Modability
I think ISI have done a very smart thing here. No real racer can tell me that it's not absolutely thrilling to take the 1979 F1 Ferrari of Gilles Villeneuve and throw it around the legenday Nordschleife. It makes every race fans heart beat higher, no matter how much of a FFS fanboy you are. Now look at all the cars and tracks available for rFactor, or look at just the ones which are absolutely stunning. More than I will ever have the free time to try! And simply mind blowing.
Opening their source code to the mod community has added neverending quality content to this sim.
I do not undertsand why the LFS devs do not want to grant this to their audience. It takes nothing away from how brilliant LFS is, but it does mean that I cannot do without rFactor, that's for sure. I do not want to miss out on this...
11) AI/Offline racing
I'm not too bothered about this, I do most of my racing online and this review is about the multiplayer games. However a quick mention: I have had some enjoyable races with some of the rFactor cars on some tracks, not too shabby at all. Abismal on other tracks with different cars,so it's a bit hit and miss. Choose your mod and difficulty level right and you can have some fun.
LFS is a multiplayer game. Fullstop. The AI is not worthy to be called that. However no-one cares as no-one is into LFS to play offline...
Conclusion:
Right, this has been long, I'll keep this short. I love both. I would cry tears of joy if I had an rFactor with the playability, online gaming drift physics of LFS. I would be similarly emotional about a LFS with as much top quality content in terms of tracks and cars as rFactor.
For now, I'll take the best of both worlds in the hope that some day both combine.
aceracer
...same here, got up early on a Saturday to do some racing and can't connect
This Master Server idea really is not the greatestg, it should be decentralised, so if one server goes down others can jump in...
aceracer
This Master Server idea really is not the greatestg, it should be decentralised, so if one server goes down others can jump in...
aceracer
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG