RB4 CS300

TW

Hi!

I very much like the three street turbos, but I think the gap between the stock cars and the race variants is huge. So I am planning to create "Clubsport" variants of them, bringing the grip and power up, but still keeping them closer to stock. I also want to add the FZ5 to the lineup.

The first tests turned out very promising, I had great fun throwing them around the track. They are already very diverse in the way they handle and the lap times are already close. Still, one of the big tasks that lies ahead is creating a good baseline with the setups and fine tuning the balance between the cars.

Let's talk a bit about the cars. Keep in mind that everything is work in progress and subject to change. I am also open for discussion on the specifics, if anyone is interested.

They are race-ready variants of the street cars. They come with slick tyres, a sequential gearbox with ignition cut and slight weight reduction. They also all have a pit speed limiter, a shift light and traction control.

To also add more diversity for the ears, each car has a completely new engine. The engines range from four to six cylinders and from 2.0 litres to 3.2 litres. The current technical specifications can be seen in the following table:



This is my current todo list:

• work out base setups that drive well and do not eat tyres
  • XRT CS300 (✓)
    
  • FXO CS300 ✓
    
  • RB4 CS300 ✓
    
  • FZ5 CS300 ✓
    
• functional interior work: update clusters to show shift lights, pit limiter etc.
  • XRT CS300 ✓
    
  • FXO CS300
    
  • RB4 CS300 ✓
    
  • FZ5 CS300 ✓
    
• visual interior work: add roll cages, race seats, steering wheels, shifters
  • XRT CS300 ✓
    
  • FXO CS300 ✓
    
  • RB4 CS300 ✓
    
  • FZ5 CS300 ✓
    
• improve car sounds, balanced in loudness and overall pleasant to listen to
  • XRT CS300 ✓
    
  • FXO CS300 ✓
    
  • RB4 CS300 ✓
    
  • FZ5 CS300 ✓
    
• create base skin
  • XRT CS300 ✓
    
  • FXO CS300
    
  • RB4 CS300
    
  • FZ5 CS300
    
• re-balance the cars by slightly tweaking weight, power
  
• test, work out quirks, get feedback
  

What do you think about the idea? I'd love to hear any feedback, suggestions
Will update this post when further progress is made, but this can be infrequent (life and stuff)

Cheers!


_____________

• XRT CS300 (last updated 06 Dec 2023)
  
• FXO CS300 (last updated 29 Nov 2023)
  
• RB4 CS300 (last updated 19 Dec 2023)
  
• FZ5 CS300 (last updated 19 Dec 2023)
  

Hi,
I think such group between TBO and GTR is a good idea.
Someone made an FXO SUPERTOURER and in response others made the RB4 SUPERTOURER.
https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods/9283E8
https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods/D06344
As I understand, those two are meant to be equal competitors.
Just XRT is missing.


They have only a tiny bit less power than your suggested specifications.
Since nobody made an XRT variant yet, it might make sense to start with that and balance it with the other two.

Thats a great suggestion. I am definitely open to checking if I could align the clubsport variants so that they're balanced with the existing SUPERTOURER class. This could add even more variance to races

The super tourers are less powerful, but also even lighter. I'll have to do some testing and tweaking.

Modding that focuses on the essentials, I like that!
LFS needs operational modding. That is to say, cars that are fun to drive with compatible characteristics to make varied and stimulating grids; some coherent groups for racing on tracks. The idea of a Clubsport class is excellent.

This is just a personal opinion, the native LFS turbos are pleasant to drive, but too sluggish. The GTRs are great, but a little tiring over time, because too easy to drive (power + grip). An intermediate class with real racing tires would synthesize the best of LFS (with its current physics).
On the other hand, even if I understand the choice of the sequential gearbox, it would be nice to have a little choice too with a H gearbox.

Quote from Gutholz :

Since nobody made an XRT variant yet, it might make sense to start with that and balance it with the other two.

https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods/6D3FD6


And there's this: https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods?user=Nanex

There is Clubsport spec (and its awesome) https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods/618222
Maybe trophy or cup will be better 😉

So I did some testing with the super tourers and came to the conclusion that the clubsport cars become compatible if I limit the engine power to ~300 HP. I also changed the tyre size to reduce overall grip levels, from 255/35R18 9J to 245/35R18 8.5J.
Based on the new horsepower figure, I think it'd be nice to call the class Clubsport 300 or CS300 in short

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

On the other hand, even if I understand the choice of the sequential gearbox, it would be nice to have a little choice too with a H gearbox.

Yeah, I totally agree. Though I believe it's not possible to give the choice between the two gearbox types via setup. I this case I guess one gearbox type has to win and that would be the sequential. But we could create a derivative mod with the H pattern gearbox

Quote from versiu :

And there's this: https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods?user=Nanex

Wow, thank you for that contribution. What Nanex built is extremely close to what I want to achieve.

Quote from hooligan_rallyteam :

There is Clubsport spec (and its awesome) https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods/618222
Maybe trophy or cup will be better 😉

Yeah, probably. I do not know that much about IRL racing classes and reglements. The Clubsport name was just something that popped into my head and a quick search confirmed that it broadly fits to what I want to do




So, I think I need to reach some sort of conclusion. As pointed out, there are already several cars that fit the bill, so theoretically one would just have to create a server with them and we should have the kind of racing that my mods are planned to provide. Which is awesome to know, so thank you for your contributions!
I am unsure now though if creating my planned mods would only needlessly clutter the LFS mod library or if it'd still be a valuable contribution?

One thing is sure though, we should create a server, enable the aforementioned mods and take them for a spin! If nothing, this thread brought to (my? ) knowledge there are some cars that are already compatible

All these cars should be marked as "tweaked" - these are standard LFS cars with changed (tweaked) parameters.

Quote from Eclipsed :

All these cars should be marked as "tweaked" - these are standard LFS cars with changed (tweaked) parameters.

It's true. But the most important thing seems to be that these cars are also identifiable as a category, for example to easily form coherent grids.

This is the problem with the current mod system. There are many things, good and not so good. Everything is mixed and unclassifiable. It is difficult to navigate, or even to know what has already been done. This subject is the very expression of this problem.

Rather than thousands of cosmetic mods with crude physics and dysfunctional LODS, it would be nice to have a real "racing" section with consistent car types. Even if it means reusing native models and skins already made.

LFS was a car racing game before modding. I have nothing against evolution or the unbridled creativity of modders, nor against motorcycles. But having a section of "ready to race" racing cars, with good settings and racing skins, would be enough for me. If this was grouped on a dedicated server with a "ready to race" mode, I might fix my ping problem to reconnect. I don't think I'm the only one in this situation.

Quote from Eclipsed :

All these cars should be marked as "tweaked" - these are standard LFS cars with changed (tweaked) parameters.

Agreed. Though I am unable to find the option to change it - could you point it out to me?

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

If this was grouped on a dedicated server with a "ready to race" mode [...]

This is exactly what I want to ultimately achieve. I love the idea of a server with all these cars (including the existing ones that were suggested in this thread). That would provide a great variety of drivetrains, engines and their sound and driving characteristics. It could be great for drivers and viewers as well.

Quote from Günni92 :

This is exactly what I want to ultimately achieve. I love the idea of a server with all these cars (including the existing ones that were suggested in this thread). That would provide a great variety of drivetrains, engines and their sound and driving characteristics. It could be great for drivers and viewers as well.

What do you think about the possibility of having limited setups for these cars? (If the mod system or Insim could finally allow it of course).

So, with enough car choices to satisfy all racers, competition could become more about car choice, driving and race strategy rather than setup science. This would, I think, attract racers who don't necessarily have the time to refine a killer setup. Or who simply don't have the mechanical gene, but love racing and fair competition.

I've mentioned this idea here before, and I'm not the only one to have done so. It seems we are in the minority position here on this. So, I can hear you disagree with that .

But your opinion interests me. Indeed, in this type of intermediate category, quite close to production cars, we can imagine that the range of settings could be more in line with reality.

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

What do you think about the possibility of having limited setups for these cars? (If the mod system or Insim could finally allow it of course).

I think it's a great concept and it is something that I actually thought about when creating them. I discarded the idea because it is not technically possible at the moment.

While I love the process of creating setups and tuning in special behavior to the cars, I just don't have the time anymore. So I'd count myself to the "Oh, there's a race going on tonight, let's grab a car and go!"-crowd. Fixed setups (or, at least, very limited setup options) would IMO certainly help with that. There are so many combinations of cars and tracks now that I do not feel motivated to create good setups for the ones I'm gonna use.

So yeah, great idea in my opinion and I'd definitely support that. It'd just be important that the base setups are good and that basic modification of things like final drive, wheel alignment, brake balance (in sane limits) etc. is still allowed, so everybody can still fit the cars to their driving style.

Quote from Günni92 :

I think it's a great concept [...] There are so many combinations of cars and tracks now that I do not feel motivated to create good setups for the ones I'm gonna use. [...] It'd just be important that the base setups are good and that basic modification of things like final drive, wheel alignment, brake balance (in sane limits) etc. is still allowed, so everybody can still fit the cars to their driving style.

I am happy to see that we understand each other perfectly. The nature of your modding project made me think about it (thinking by categories and not by individual car, balanced grids, cars that are pleasant to drive but accessible to all, favoring technical specifications over cosmetic gadgets etc.).

The good news is that your project can already work under current conditions. I think it will find its audience. Limited configuration options would definitely give it a wider audience. We've been talking about limited configurations here for a long time. The developers were already talking about it more than 13 years ago. (I was reminded of this in this other thread. https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/2030087#post2030087)

I am convinced that it will soon be possible to limit setups, at least in the context of modding. It has become unavoidable. Today, those (like me) who have little time to devote to gaming and enjoy racing, prefer to play offline with a single generic setup. This is paradoxical with a multiplayer game. Beyond the limited configuration options, it is a new online game mode, more contemporary and adapted to the players that we are, that we must rethink.

Quote from Günni92 :

I am unsure now though if creating my planned mods would only needlessly clutter the LFS mod library or if it'd still be a valuable contribution?

That is indeed bit of a problem.
I would really concentrate on the XRT because FXO and RB4 versions already exist.
As a player I do not really care if the class is called "Supertourer" or "Clubsport" but I think having both would fragment it too much.
In my opinion, the best way to create a well matched class of cars is to contribute to an existing class, instead of making another one.
To me it is also important that the car is not only different in physics but also looks somewhat good.

Quote :

I this case I guess one gearbox type has to win and that would be the sequential. But we could create a derivative mod with the H pattern gearbox

I think XRT could keep H pattern.
In GTR the FZR also H pattern among sequential XRR and FXR.
I am not a fan of creating every possible derivative mod, I feel if the car lose character if there is too many very similar variants.

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

Today, those (like me) who have little time to devote to gaming and enjoy racing, prefer to play offline with a single generic setup.

I am not good with tweaking setups either. But just ask for a setup, in my experience usually multiple people would send theirs. Just make sure to ask ahead of time, not when everybody is busy.

Quote from Günni92 :

Agreed. Though I am unable to find the option to change it - could you point it out to me?

Only reviewers can do that. If you send me links to the mods which you need to change to tweak mods, I can do it for you.

I haven't found the time to do a test drive yet. First impressions watching AI races.

The category seems balanced and the AI is fighting among itself. This bodes well. The "complete mod, race-ready" effect works with car names and their category. But is it enough to stand out in the clutter of current mods without a specific entry?
I have already mentioned it but, beyond this particular mod, the mods which are made up of several cars and are intended to compose "race-ready" type grids, should be identifiable and directly accessible in the system of mods.

Three small comments on the mod:

- The interiors deserve a little creative effort in order to be more inspired by the "racing" style. Especially the historically ugliest ones (FXO, FZ5).
- A few skins for each car are a must.
- Having only sequential gearboxes is too limiting.

Quote from Gutholz :

I am not good with tweaking setups either. But just ask for a setup, in my experience usually multiple people would send theirs. Just make sure to ask ahead of time, not when everybody is busy.

I know people online are nice and share their setups. I have tested it often in the past. But this doesn't solve my current problem. I don't have time to waste getting to grips with a new setup before each race. Changing configuration for each track annoys me a lot.

Without being good at setups, mine suit me perfectly. For me, a good setup is one that is realistic, enjoyable to drive and polyvalent. I don't care if it's fast or not. I might want to race online again if the setup options were limited so as not to unbalance the races. And that mechanical gearboxes do not magically transform into sequential gearboxes, like on world record replays .

Yay! The cars have already been published, thank you all for your support!
@Flame the cars have now been marked as tweak mods - thanks for the help


Of course the mods are far from ready. All of the points that have been mentioned I agree with should still be done. Many of them, e.g. skins are already in progress. Also the balancing, including with the existing super tourers, is of high priority for me.
But this stuff takes time and, as predicted in post #1, life is catching up and I am very busy. I will still devote my evening time to this project, though.

There are already many changes to the cars that are currently not published, including improved default setups, better modelling especially for the cages, better positioning of seats etc.
The published variants are already "outdated" and I will update them soon. Though because every iteration has to go through the review process again, I will not pump out version after version for minor changes, but rather wait until the next comprehensive package with major improvements is ready.

So bear with me, I will update the vehicles soon


PS.: Can anyone tell me if the previous version stays published when I upload a new mod archive? I'd love to still be able to host a server with all the cars while the next iteration is already in review.

Regarding the sequential gearboxes:

I see that they are not as popular as I expected them to be . I am open for discussion about changing one or more cars over to H pattern.
We could look at all cars in the "class" (Supertourer and Clubsport 300) and define, which change on the Clubsport cars would provide the most variety (e.g. we don't need multiple RB4 with sequential). I will put that on my todo-list and am open for your ideas.

Quote from Günni92 :

The published variants are already "outdated" and I will update them soon. Though because every iteration has to go through the review process again, I will not pump out version after version for minor changes, but rather wait until the next comprehensive package with major improvements is ready.

Thanks for considering that problem. But you can update your mod without it needing to be reviewed again.

Quote :

PS.: Can anyone tell me if the previous version stays published when I upload a new mod archive? I'd love to still be able to host a server with all the cars while the next iteration is already in review.

Only the latest version is playable.

You can enter some text when you update the mod and it will display in a changelog on the mod's page like this:
https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods/56D573?changelog
As you see, this mod has had 12 updates and it is no problem. Some mods have 50+
It is good to enter useful text there, so players can see what was changed.

Quote from Günni92 :

Regarding the sequential gearboxes:

I see that they are not as popular as I expected them to be . I am open for discussion about changing one or more cars over to H pattern.
We could look at all cars in the "class" (Supertourer and Clubsport 300) and define, which change on the Clubsport cars would provide the most variety (e.g. we don't need multiple RB4 with sequential). I will put that on my todo-list and am open for your ideas.

After a test drive, these “Clubsport” versions are very pleasant to drive. Just enough power to not fall asleep and force you to reach the limit. It's very stimulating. Too bad the AI is totally insignificant on the track (especially on Rockingham). Perhaps there is something to improve here with the AI setup? The settings offered are indeed very perfectible, especially that of the FZ5. Otherwise (I know this will shock purists...) why not make special versions of cars for AI? (while waiting for the new tires physics and its new AI, of course )

Regarding gearboxes (I can't be objective here, as I only drive H gearbox ) I think the XRT & RB4 could be with an H gearbox. Apart from comfort, I don't see not really the use of the sequential gearbox with this kind of gear ratio. I would even tend to consider that all these cars would gain in charisma by being in H gearbox (I actually converted them to drive them).

The current mod system is essentially (at the moment) a vehicle editor. Real "race" categories are missing to select and sort the mods in order to compose grids. The mod system needs something specifically dedicated to racing. This “Clubsport” category could serve as a model here. Many models already created could complete this category if their specifications were adapted for this.

Don't give up on Günni92. You are on the right path.

I just published the next version for the XRT CS300. It includes a new dashboard, a new base skin and improved sound configuration.
It also includes a good base setup that should be both easy to drive and very durable.

The other three cars will follow in the same manner. The RB4 will probably be next, since all that it's missing is the skin. If you're interested in a more detailed state of progress, you may refer to the todo-list in post #1, since I am keeping this up to date.

Regarding the new XRT CS300 skin: It's very basic in it's form and I know that It's just that I am not very skilled (and patient) with graphical design. The idea behind the skin is to be the default for the car, something that a manufacturer would promote the vehicle with. It's supposed to be a bit generic and replaceable.
So I think the skin serves its purpose for now and the other cars will receive similar skins.
Though, if anybody loves creating skins and has some nice ideas, feel free to contribute! I'd love to add your skins as defaults to the mod

Quote from Gutholz :

But you can update your mod without it needing to be reviewed again.

Thank you for clarifying that - I misunderstood the information on the mod update page.

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

After a test drive, these “Clubsport” versions are very pleasant to drive. Just enough power to not fall asleep and force you to reach the limit. It's very stimulating.

Thank you! Yeah, that's what my impressions are as well. I tested mostly on Westhill and in South City, and I always had a blast. The cars work on large, fast circuits equally as well as on the slow, bumpy tracks. The low downforce makes them dance just the right amount to always keep it interesting.

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

I would even tend to consider that all these cars would gain in charisma by being in H gearbox (I actually converted them to drive them)

I guess I am not opposed to that. Though I think the sequential gearboxes additionally separate them from their street counterparts.
I think the best course of action would be to mix it and thus have it in the following way:
XRT CS300: H-pattern
RB4 CS300: sequential
FXO CS300: H-pattern
FZ5 CS300: sequential

This way, when we're including the super tourers, we'd have the least overlap and people could effectively choose, which car and which gearbox type they want to use:

XRT
H-pattern: XRT CS300
sequential: XRT ST or XR SUPERTOURER
RB4
H-pattern: RB4 GT CLUBSPORT (AWD)
sequential: RB4 ST (AWD) or RB4 SUPERTOURER (FWD) or RB4 CS300 (RWD)
FXO
H-pattern: FXO CS300
sequential: FXO ST, FXO SUPERTOURER
FZ5
sequential: FZ5 CS300

This way the Clubsport 300 cars could actually provide a great deal of variety to the whole field. What do you think?

Quote from Günni92 :

Yeah, that's what my impressions are as well. I tested mostly on Westhill and in South City, and I always had a blast. The cars work on large, fast circuits equally as well as on the slow, bumpy tracks. The low downforce makes them dance just the right amount to always keep it interesting.

For my part, I mainly tested Rockingham (ISSC, Handling), Blackwood (rev), Kyoto Ring GP long (both) and Aston (North & grand prix) with your XRT CS300, without changing your setup. I had fun on every track. This gives a idea of the potential of the car, its category and the versatility of your setup.
Kyoto Ring GP longs and Aston grand prix are quickly boring with a car that is underpowered and/or too easy to drive (that's just my opinion). With this balance, things are going wonderfully. I had tested other mods on these tracks, particularly in Supertourer, without achieving the same level of sensations and I had grown bored ( I switched back to the GTR).

Quote from Günni92 :

What do you think?

Your choices and base skin are good. I would add two little things to personalize your Clubsport class. First a common banner with the name of the class to differentiate it from the others. Then, some small bodywork modifications, like a kind of kit that wouldn't disappear under the new skins. Maybe too, but it's more incidental, new textures for the dashboard (in fiber for example) and doors without interior trim (stripped). Maybe that's too much, but would it be nice ?

I can't wait to test your new XRT and the others.

@Günni92,
Just a little feedback.
I tried your version 2 of the XRT. With the new configuration, the car is more stable and docile. So, easier to drive but loses "aggressiveness and character"(I don't know if that makes sense in English ). It's a choice. Personally (sorry!) I preferred the more subtle, demanding and precise steering of the first setting. It's not that important.

But the big problem with this configuration is that the tires heat up a lot and very quickly. With the first configuration, I was able to do 30 laps of racing without problems. There, in a few laps in the same conditions, the tires died.

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

With the first configuration, I was able to do 30 laps of racing without problems. There, in a few laps in the same conditions, the tires died.

Thank you for the feedback!

I see the problem you're having. Currently the XRT CS300 is the only car that runs on R2, the other three run on R3 slicks.
I can try to make the XRT CS300 work on R3s, although this requires a bit more work than just switching the compound. The current setup stops working if I do that, the tyres do not get warm and that results in tons of understeer and corner exit oversteer.

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

With the first configuration, I was able to do 30 laps of racing without problems. There, in a few laps in the same conditions, the tires died.

Which track did you run on and do you have a replay? I did a test on FE Black, I drove 7 laps. After lap 2 or 3 the tyres reached equilibrium and I was able to keep them between 95-100 °C. Which is still very good for R2, gripwise. Also, only the inner third of the rear tyres actually got near 100 °C, the rest was very homogenous bright green:



When fighting against the AI and pushing hard out of the corners, they began overheating quickly (highest 104 °C), but I was always able to cool them back down immediately (half a lap) just by getting on the throttle a tiny bit later.
Compared to the R3s not even getting remotely warm, I actually think we should stick to R2s.

Remember that these are just base setups. The most important thing for me is that they work out of the box and that the cars are predictable and reactive from the first lap you actually drive them. No matter the track you choose. If, for a specific track, the tyres only last 10-15 laps when pushing hard, is that really a problem? I'd say good that these setups are not fixed in this case

I will try to mitigate the issue a little bit and keep it in mind for the other setups (which I should probably switch to R2 as well).

[Sorry for the delay. I came to answer you but my attention was attracted by something else and I forgot you].

I did the same tests on different tracks. I think the worst was Handling, but I'm not sure.
What I was able to verify is that on Blackwood REV for example, the AI enters the pits after 10 laps and returns very quickly. In my first tests, the AI went straight on tight turns.
Maybe it's a bug because I didn't regenerate the AI paths with your new configuration?

Whatever it is, make the choices that seem best to you. You are the boss. I'll tell you what I think when all your cars are balanced. For the moment, I admit that I am having fun with your XRT CS300_002 and your first setup.