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"9397 Racing" host, Button Clutch Poll
1
(47 posts, started , go to first unread)

Poll : Should button clutch be allowed or not, on 9397 Racing host?

Closes
Button clutch should be banned
21
Button clutch should be allowed
16
#1 - lucaf
"9397 Racing" host, Button Clutch Poll
Ok now it is up to YOU wether there will be button clutch enabled on my server or not.

If you wonder what sense has this question, please read whole thread Big grin
#2 - lucaf
The poll is active until end of May, but I will change current setting to follow your votes immediately after there is > 15 votes.
I see nothing wrong with button clutch, why would you ban it?
Voted for keeping it.
#4 - jkat
Voted to ban it.

It has been lately discussed around different racing series and more common opinion is to not allow usage of a button clutch. Main arguments being, it gives advantage against drivers using autoclutch and is unrealistic compared to real race cars.

Many events on 9397 racing host are with XFG and with it there is advantage also in clutch heating and wearing when autoclutch users try to change gears with minimal lifting while button clutch users can change gears with full throttle. Also UF1, FBM, RB4, MRT, LX4, LX6, UFR and FZR are cars which would have this extra advantage when using button clutch.

Also if you are a keypad user, button clutch is a nogo.
Voted to keep it. Button clutch exists on real world.
idgaf really
Don't use autoclutch then, why would you use autoclutch? It's an assist, and if you can't drive without assists then why are you even in LFS (at whoever uses autoclutch and is trying to fight the poll)

Plus it wears the clutch out, and c'mon its a bloody assist jasyus
It's an assist because not everyone has an axis clutch! And the negative aspect of having some drivers in field using button clutch is that the clutch works much faster then axis clutch,thus giving slight advantage over everone else,including axis (realistic) clutch users,while automatic clutch (even if handled manualy with button) simulates the tempo normal axis clutch has.
As I promised, I will change the server to follow poll results.

Now situation is 13 vs 8 for button cluch, so from now button clutch is enabled on my server. Until...?

Poll is open until the end of May and I will constantly monitor voting result. So the final state of button clutch setting at the server is not yet decided.
Quote from Eclipsed :It's an assist because not everyone has an axis clutch! And the negative aspect of having some drivers in field using button clutch is that the clutch works much faster then axis clutch,thus giving slight advantage over everone else,including axis (realistic) clutch users,while automatic clutch (even if handled manualy with button) simulates the tempo normal axis clutch has.

If I still remember how to use a pedal set from something like 4 years back - I'm sure axis clutch (i.e actual modulating pedals) is quicker and more efficient than button clutch anyways.
You are able to :
- Heel and toe
- Blip
- Ride the clutch to decrease axle tramp
- Modulate rear traction, find clutch bite points for different surfaces
- Take advantage of engine braking better
- Coast more efficiently
- Have less wear on clutch during gear changes
. and probably much more, since I didn't really use my pedals to the full extent as I was using it for open wheel testing purposes only on other sims.

Plus, button clutch, if you have that, most probably you'll be using mouse/keyboard controls for throttle and brake too. And with that you have less control on throttle/braking inputs, and less feel for the car.

Overall, I'd say it's a tradeoff. Fair one at most - you'll never get the accuracy of using an actual wheel + pedalbox set by using button controls anywhere.

2 cents, I'm off to the beach Cool
I will not vote here, since im using BC, and ppl will say im voting to get advantage. And for me it is no problem to use auto clutch, but it can mess up rev matching while downshifts.

Basically i think, bitching around the BC is senseless. Everybody is saying that it is so unfair and gives so much advantage etc. But why all of that ppl won't start using it? Because it's too hard for them probably. Using BC gives advantages, but no one is mentioning that it gets some practice before you can actually be better with it. It's not even that much better, but it's a lot harder, especially with cars where rev matching is a must. And IMO most of ppl complaining about it, are ppl who wished to used it, but simply it's too hard for them to get used to it, so they can't get any advantage.
Also the argument that jkat gave, that BC is unrealistic because there isn't such thing in real cars, well, i can say the same about auto clutch so...

My point is, if something gives advantage, then why i shouldn't use it? Maybe just because it's too hard for others, so they will be in disadvantage? Well that would be stupid. That way we can ban using wheels, because keyboard players are in disadvantage, and not everyone can afford a wheel. And the last thing. IMO BC is less unrealistic than AC, and it requires far more attention, feel, timing, practice etc. for really not that much gain. I actually started using button clutch, not to be faster (didn't even know back then it's faster), but to increase immersion, feel more like in real car.

Cheers Anici<3 Smile
I would like to use it, but i cant, because the button i would use for it sometimes works and sometimes doesnt (10year old G25).
But when ive tried to use it earlier, i had no problems, i felt the advantage straight away and it wasnt that hard as some of you say, its easy.
But i voted agaisnt it, not because im lazy to use it or its too hard, but because the most of the drivers are using AC, and to keep it fair we all should do it (as it already is on many leagues)
Anyways, sometimes dont wonder guys if i cant see you on the right side, that button doesnt work properly on my wheel Tongue
Quote from Razor1373 :I will not vote here, since im using BC, and ppl will say im voting to get advantage.

I don't think others can see, what you vote, if you vote. And thank you for your opinion and experience about the thing. Really good to have opinions from both sides.
Quote from lucaf :I don't think others can see, what you vote, if you vote. And thank you for your opinion and experience about the thing. Really good to have opinions from both sides.

Yes i know that no one can see it but i'll still not vote, i dont really care if theres bc allowed or not, the difference in laptimes is so small, that i can't even see it, as i hope i showed today with ufr Smile Anyway what i wanted to say, no matter if it's good or not to use BC, negating all of particular person achivements by saing smth like "uh noob using bc, pff" is simply arrogant (yes BADLVBOY, talking to you :|). Thats driving me crazy. As bc guy i often have to deal with ppl, that are treating me like a cheater or smth. It feels like you could beat every one by 0.5s per lap, and they will blame the clutch, where theres no way that bc would give such advantage, probably not even 0.2s. So basically, once again, button clutch reqiures just additional mapped button, so i think everyone have the ability to use it. My wheel also had buttons failure, but i simple used different button for clutch. And AC is an assist, and it works as every assist should, it makes driving easier, but without it you can be faster. I would agree that it should be banned, if the gain would be really big, but it is hardly noticable. Just feeling bad, that someone can do really good, and there will be always other guy that will say it's easy with button clutch, well then go and use it, and show how easy it is. Some corners may be really awkward to do, when you have to downshift, rev match, button clutch, and handbrake, with turned wheel, and then someone with auto clutch will call you "bc kicker" and say its easy.
I can also say that having two ways:
1. Learn to use bc which apparently gives you so much advantage
2. Screwe learning, you can simple say bc is evil and told every one it should be banned.
the second one is the easy (and lazy) way of being more competitive. But i will not say that (ups).

PS. As im reading what i've wrote i have only 2 thoughts on my mind. One is that i might have started some kind of shitstorm :|. Second one, maybe its better to make BC not allowed, just to show all these salty guys, that drivers that have used BC, are still same fast with AC, and button clutch doesnt make good driver. If someone is darn fast with BC, its most likely he will be also darn fast with AC
Basically to sum up the auto and BC arguement in the future :

AC is a easy "assist", if you put it that way. Makes clutch usage irrevelant.
Button Clutch reintroduces the "manual" aspect of a clutch, be it only on, or off. Adds a little realism, and allows the user to control his/her vehicle's engine output and gears more efficiently.

Problem : People using AC have a disadvantage (s) in the form of clutch overheat, or slower gear changes.
How to rectify : Get off your arse and learn to use at least a button clutch. There's no excuse in using an assist even how small, in a simulation game such as LFS. If you keep stalling, keep trying. Speed favours the brave and learning.

Sorry for being too harsh, but I'm just speaking what others might not be willing to say.
If you are arguing about an advantage others have from doing something you could have, but haven't , you got only yourself to blame.

Peace out

p.s I have no idea why is there even an auto clutch option. Shouldn't it just be : Auto Gears or Manual Gears only? Meaning auto clutch is on or off respectively. Rofl
Quote from MicroSpecV :p.s I have no idea why is there even an auto clutch option.

Paddleshifts are auto-clutched IRL.

Anici: You convinced me, BC's fine by me even if I don't use it.
Quote :My point is, if something gives advantage, then why i shouldn't use it?

For some people playing sims is not only about getting every possible advantage, but also about somewhat realistic experience/immersion.
Why does not everybody drive from unrealistic roof-view?
Why do people buy/build wheels with stronger FFB or more rotation?
Not because it gives an advantage...

I think none of the mentioned 'skills' that button-clutch supposedly requires exist. (For sure they are not skills that make it more realistic. )
A pedal-clutch takes time to press and you have to move your feet. (=slow!)
Since pedal-sets with only two pedals are wide-spread, it needs a way to drive without clutch-pedal: That is the auto-clutch option. It simulates the time a pedal would take to operate.
But how button-clutch engages the clutch instantly, at least how it gets used 99% of time. That is unrealistic in way like it is unrealistic that gamepad or mouse-steering can go lock-to-lock instantly.
And so it is no surprise that main-advantage of button-clutch is not "better rev-matching" or "realism", it is simply that when upshifting on straights the bc-user accelerates fasters because his clutch operates unrealistic instantly.
Curious question, are some of the BC users here using shifting macros?
Quote from Gutholz :For some people playing sims is not only about getting every possible advantage, but also about somewhat realistic experience/immersion.

Well, BC is more immersive than AC, at least for me...

Quote from Gutholz :I think none of the mentioned 'skills' that button-clutch supposedly requires exist. (For sure they are not skills that make it more realistic. )

Well if theres no skills needed to use button clutch, then why so many ppl have problem with it. Im still thinking, that everyone have ability to used it, it wont require any addiotional gear, just getting used to and practice. And im still thinking that probably most of ppl (not all) that want it banned, want it because they simply aren't able to use it efficiently, or don't want to invest any time for learning, so they are choosing the easy route.

Quote from Gutholz :Since pedal-sets with only two pedals are wide-spread, it needs a way to drive without clutch-pedal: That is the auto-clutch option.

Let me correct. That is the auto-clutch and button-clutch option. Everyone can choose, what he prefers, and what he is able to use. It is logical that i'll choose the option that is both, more immersive and faster, makes me predict the car better.

Quote from Gutholz :It simulates the time a pedal would take to operate.
But how button-clutch engages the clutch instantly, at least how it gets used 99% of time.

Button clutch doesn't engages the clutch instantly. It is faster than AC which is understandable (since AC is an assist, and it shouldn't be both: easier and faster), but it still simulates the time a pedal would take to operate, same as button brake and button throttle. Theres a multipler in settings, where you can customize it.

Quote from Gutholz :That is unrealistic in way like it is unrealistic that gamepad or mouse-steering can go lock-to-lock instantly.

Then should we disallow using mouse or gamepad as a controller? Why no one every point that out. Clearly should be banned. Also, thinking that way, i have a question. Do you think, using paddleshifters, or sequntial gearstick, is realistic in cars like XFG, XRT, RB4 and every other in game car with H-pattern gearbox? Well we have clearly same situation, it is unrealistic, it gives unfair advantage, probably few times bigger (advantage) than BC compared to AC. I think that should be number 1 to eliminate, so force automatic gearbox, or H-pattern shifter + manual pedal clutch. Like why can all these ppl use sequntial gear change with paddles?! I will not use it because it's unrealistic, but they are so much faster because of that, that's unfair! We better force them to use automatic gears, so everyone have equal chances right? And, as you mentioned below, that BC engages clutch instatly, while it isn't, in this case, using paddleshifters makes the gear change actually instant, while we know it takes some time in reality to change between gears with H-shifter. Isn't that unfair?

Quote from Gutholz :And so it is no surprise that main-advantage of button-clutch is not "better rev-matching" or "realism", it is simply that when upshifting on straights the bc-user accelerates fasters because his clutch operates unrealistic instantly.

Did you every tried driving with BC? How much faster it was commpared to AC 0.5s? more? Did you even noticed any difference? Actually from my point of view with BC im gaining most on braking zones and corners entry/exit, because i have just better feel of the car with it. Actually the difference is so small, that it makes all that complaining just funny, it looks like searching for some kind of exuses. The gain on the straight: lets say old BL1 straight with xfg, was something about 0.1s. The difference per lap oscialated around 0.15 - 0.2s, i've checked that like 2y ago, and i could get the difference lower, but i wasn't familiar with ac, and it often affected my rev matching, so i was loosing most of the time in braking to T1, SC1 all alone was 0.1 second slower. The whole thing with accelerating is some kind of myth. Ofc there is different in favor of BC, but i think it isn't any near the values that most of you thinks.

So to sum up. I've checked the difference few years ago, i've checked it yesterday. It depends on track, but the difference isn't critical, as you apparently think it is, on some tracks (layouts) it doesn't even exists. What is more important, i still can't understand, why some ppl are so mad about it, and want to force others wether to use BC or not. It is in game setting for Godness sake, it doesn't require any additional gear, so it's up to your decision if you want to use it or not, and you shouldn't force others to do what you thought is better. Some will say AC is more realistic, others will say opposite, everyone have their decision. Like nothing is stopping you from using BC, so you have to either, stick with AC, if that's the preffered option by you, and stop complaining, or start using BC, and be slightly faster. The whole thing is so simple, it's like decision: 'easier but slower' or 'faster and harder', everyone can decide by himself. If you've choosed the slower option, then deal with it, that some guys can be in advantage, because they choosed different. The whole thing just looks like bunch of ppl that can't learn to use BC, are salty and jealous, so the only option for them is apparently create some kind of drama, and make BC users look bad, and hopefully force them to use AC. IT'S YOUR GOD DAMN OPTION, YOU DON'T NEED ANYTHING EXPECT WILL TO USE BC. The whole talk is just pointless. I really suggest you to try out BC by your self, and see with your own eyes how dissapointing is the time gain compared to the effort you put in, in order to learn it. Notice that pulling out one fast lap doesn't mean you've already learned, it also takes some time to be consistent, and some particular corners may really be awkward to drive with BC, creating more problems, even if you're already used to it. Maybe a good compromise would be to lower the speed of axis mapped as button, but then hotlaps would have to be deleted, and it would probably affect also throttle and brake axis if used as button. Or to prevent deleting HLs, make an option to force lower multiplier on servers, the same way auto-clutch can be forced.

@johneysvk
The shift macros are different thing, and i agree that this is the problem. But it shouldn't be reason to make every BC user feel like a shit, and understate their achivements, as i've experienced recently.

#EDIT
Quote from Racon :Anici: You convinced me, BC's fine by me even if I don't use it.

I appreciate, and im not really interested in making BC allowed in leagues that much or on every server. Im fine with it, since if im fast, then im fast no matter if im using BC or AC just like every other BC-user. The major thing for me is that i think all that paranoia about button clutch went way too far. You can clearly see eg. someone with BC is joining server. Qualifying session, doing decent (lets say middle of the table). Everyone is kind and friendly, then that person is getting closer to best time, to finally beat it or being really close, and i bet there will bunch of ppl, that were nice before, but when that person is actually one of the fastest, they are starting pointing out button-clutch, saying unkind commentary, and making that person doings a lot smaller, not worthy. Like "ohh you did best time, but you are using BC, so it's like your 15 in the table, expect worse, because button clutch". That's really pissing me off. It's comparable with situation, when you are really fast, and some guys with keyboard or mouse will first be stunned, and then find out you are using wheel and say something like "well, you are using wheel, try that with mouse", "i guess it's easy with wheel" or "give me that wheel and i'll be faster". I think a lot of ppl with wheels faced such situation, me included, and the same thing is happening when you are using buttonclutch, expect sometimes they will start to be rude, and even try to humiliate you.
Quote : Button clutch doesn't engages the clutch instantly. It is faster than AC which is understandable (since AC is an assist, and it shouldn't be both: easier and faster), but it still simulates the time a pedal would take to operate, same as button brake and button throttle. Theres a multipler in settings, where you can customize it.

It can be set to be basically instantly and I bet majority of bc-users uses it like that.

Quote :Maybe a good compromise would be to lower the speed of axis mapped as button,

Excactly.
Clutch-rate should be seperate from the other pedals. Imo still does not make it less of an exploit to use unrealistic setting.

Quote :Then should we disallow using mouse or gamepad as a controller? Why no one every point that out. Clearly should be banned. Also, thinking that way, i have a question. Do you think, using paddleshifters, or sequntial gearstick, is realistic in cars like XFG, XRT, RB4 and every other in game car with H-pattern gearbox?

No, because that is about finding a compromises how the game can be played with widely-used hardware. (controllers, wheels with 2 pedals etc)
One is a compromise: Making the game more accessible for wider range of hardware.
Second is exploit: Using options that game offers for "less-optimal" hardware, with unrealistic settings, to gain advantage.
Quote from Gutholz :For some people playing sims is not only about getting every possible advantage, but also about somewhat realistic experience/immersion.
> So you're implying Auto clutch provides a more realistic experience/immersion than a manual button clutch ? (Foot axis clutch is out of the point, that's our baseline, and we're only discussing BETWEEN button and auto clutch. If you're gonna debunk BC with axis clutch then you're debunking the use of AC as well at the same time.)
Why does not everybody drive from unrealistic roof-view?
> Who does? Excluding drifters..?
Why do people buy/build wheels with stronger FFB or more rotation?
> Stronger FFB is nothing if the actuation motor is claptrap. More rotation is crap too for racing, unless you're drifting - again, out of context.
Not because it gives an advantage... > Guess you're referring to pedal axis clutch against BC again, if yes, refer to point 1.

I think none of the mentioned 'skills' that button-clutch supposedly requires exist. (For sure they are not skills that make it more realistic. )
> Sure, do you use button clutch or your trusty pedal clutch? I think the latter.
And BC usage takes skills too, you can't just jump on it and be quick on it immediately.
A pedal-clutch takes time to press and you have to move your feet. (=slow!)
> Unless your reflexes are that of a sloth, I doubt it matters that much at all. Being an ex-pedalset user, you get better at it and faster as time goes on, and you gain useful skills like blipping, r matching, heel n toe, lf braking, etcetra...
Since pedal-sets with only two pedals are wide-spread, it needs a way to drive without clutch-pedal: That is the auto-clutch option. It simulates the time a pedal would take to operate.
> Then phrase your rebuttal differently! Say, enable both BC and AC. Not disable one for the other.
But how button-clutch engages the clutch instantly, at least how it gets used 99% of time. That is unrealistic in way like it is unrealistic that gamepad or mouse-steering can go lock-to-lock instantly.
>It only engages instantly if you have 10 button rate. Who uses 10 button rate? No one.
And you don't go lock to lock with a mouse/kb axis if you want to get the most efficient and quick line through a corner - you get bloody understeer and loads of push : back your theory up before using it as a backup.
And so it is no surprise that main-advantage of button-clutch is not "better rev-matching" or "realism", it is simply that when upshifting on straights the bc-user accelerates fasters because his clutch operates unrealistic instantly.
> Refer to the button rate, blipping, all of the points above.

Point being, sorry?

(Sorry to sound harsh but I just don't see the logic in enabling AC and disabling BC, or vice versa. Just enable both, for goodness sake
Quote :> So you're implying Auto clutch provides a more realistic experience/immersion than a manual button clutch ?

Yes.
With BC the player has "operate the clutch" and that makes it a bit tiny more realistic BUT how it works makes it in sum less realistic.

rest of post is too unformated or already adressed..
Quote from Gutholz :It can be set to be basically instantly and I bet majority of bc-users uses it like that.

Excactly.
Clutch-rate should be seperate from the other pedals. Imo still does not make it less of an exploit to use unrealistic setting.

No, because that is about finding a compromises how the game can be played with widely-used hardware. (controllers, wheels with 2 pedals etc)
One is a compromise: Making the game more accessible for wider range of hardware.
Second is exploit: Using options that game offers for "less-optimal" hardware, with unrealistic settings, to gain advantage.

1. No, you can't set it any near "instantly" with that multiplier set to it's max which is 10, it still isn't near instant engage, it's quite faster than AC ofc, but really, the difference is so overrated. I honestly recommend you to check that out by yourself, so you can see the difference in laptimes is minor, and it's so hard to get that difference... I would be grateful, if you would check that out, compare, do some tests by yourself, then comback and post your feedback Smile. I did check that, couple of times, and that's why im so sure, and self-confident about all that thing. Just check by yourself. As already 2 AC-guys posted, that BC isn't hard to learn, and it's so easy that's pretty much up to changing the settings, and boom, your already faster, which i definitely don't agree with, but if you say so, then it should be simple for you to check that, since it doesn't require any additional skill, right? I think every person posting that BC is so much faster and easy to use, should first do comparsion. Pick one car and track, try to set good lap with AC, and then do the same with BC. I think the first thought will be "well, it isn't that easy", and if someone will be determined enough, then will come the second though, that it's not as much faster, and requires some hard practicing. Please tell me if im wrong, AFTER YOU CHECK THAT. I think that even after dozens of laps with BC, it could look like it's actually slower, as i thought when i was trying to learn it. It really requires repeatable perfection in timing and synchronizing to see the results, and for it you have to build muscle memory, which takes time. And even if you got that right, then it's still getting some time, before you will eliminate skipping gear changes etc. Like, you can already do good lap with BC, but it will take some time to eliminate missgearing due to bad timed clutch, or problems with throttle blipping.

2. Well i thought of devs lowering the maximum possible button speed rate. Btw i don't know what else do you mean by "unrealistic setting". Well maybe there's some settings that i don't know about, and it makes button clutch users so much faster. This could explain why im not agreeing that BC i so much faster, because im not exploiting settings enough?Smile
3. I can also say that:
Making the game more accessible for wider range of hardware. - e.g. automatic gearbox, for ppl that doesn't have H-shifter
Using options that game offers for "less-optimal" hardware, with unrealistic settings, to gain advantage. - e.g. Using sequntial paddle shifter, for H-pattern gerabox cars.
Quote from Razor1373 :1. No, you can't set it any near "instantly" with that multiplier set to it's max which is 10, it still isn't near instant engage, it's quite faster than AC ofc, but really, the difference is so overrated. I honestly recommend you to check that out by yourself, so you can see the difference in laptimes is minor, and it's so hard to get that difference... I would be grateful, if you would check that out, compare, do some tests by yourself, then comback and post your feedback Smile. I did check that, couple of times, and that's why im so sure, and self-confident about all that thing. Just check by yourself. As already 2 AC-guys posted, that BC isn't hard to learn, and it's so easy that's pretty much up to changing the settings, and boom, your already faster, which i definitely don't agree with, but if you say so, then it should be simple for you to check that, since it doesn't require any additional skill, right? I think every person posting that BC is so much faster and easy to use, should first do comparsion. Pick one car and track, try to set good lap with AC, and then do the same with BC. I think the first thought will be "well, it isn't that easy", and if someone will be determined enough, then will come the second though, that it's not as much faster, and requires some hard practicing. Please tell me if im wrong, AFTER YOU CHECK THAT. I think that even after dozens of laps with BC, it could look like it's actually slower, as i thought when i was trying to learn it. It really requires repeatable perfection in timing and synchronizing to see the results, and for it you have to build muscle memory, which takes time. And even if you got that right, then it's still getting some time, before you will eliminate skipping gear changes etc. Like, you can already do good lap with BC, but it will take some time to eliminate missgearing due to bad timed clutch, or problems with throttle blipping.

2. Well i thought of devs lowering the maximum possible button speed rate. Btw i don't know what else do you mean by "unrealistic setting". Well maybe there's some settings that i don't know about, and it makes button clutch users so much faster. This could explain why im not agreeing that BC i so much faster, because im not exploiting settings enough?Smile
3. I can also say that:
Making the game more accessible for wider range of hardware. - e.g. automatic gearbox, for ppl that doesn't have H-shifter
Using options that game offers for "less-optimal" hardware, with unrealistic settings, to gain advantage. - e.g. Using sequntial paddle shifter, for H-pattern gerabox cars.

Spot on.
Couldn't have phrased it better.
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"9397 Racing" host, Button Clutch Poll
(47 posts, started )
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